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ravenkult posted:It really depends on what you're writing about, but yeah, you'll be wanting to write about real people. Meth heads from Kentucky don't say ''frak.'' Meth heads from Kentucky can say whatever I want them to say if I'm writing the story. If I wrote a story containing Kentuckish... Kentucken? Kentuckesque? Anyway, if I had them in a story they would not cuss. I'd find ways for them to make their point without doing so. They probably wouldn't say frak either because it's not just meth heads who don't say that. neongrey posted:Really any word is bad if you overuse it needlessly. Didactically refusing to use swears under any circumstances is not going to do anyone's writing any good*. There are times when the word you need is 'gently caress'. That's not a scene I would write so I wouldn't need to use the same language. I wasn't saying no one should ever cuss in their writing, just that I pretty much never will, and some of the reasoning behind that. There will never be a time when that is 'the word' I need to use. I don't even believe there is any such thing as there being a certain word one needs to use in a certain situation. neongrey posted:That's a bit clinical for most times you're going to want to reach for the word, but it makes the point clear enough. Sometimes someone steps in poo poo, not poop, or doodoo, or feces, or excrement. Or sometimes they just wipe their foot off and turn their noses up and the reader figures out what happened. That's the way I'd do it.
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Jan 25, 2014 16:23
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Chairchucker posted:Meth heads from Kentucky can say whatever I want them to say if I'm writing the story. If I wrote a story containing Kentuckish... Kentucken? Kentuckesque? Anyway, if I had them in a story they would not cuss. I'd find ways for them to make their point without doing so. They probably wouldn't say frak either because it's not just meth heads who don't say that. Uh...okay. Your meth heads are just extraordinary polite when they speak.
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Jan 25, 2014 16:50
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Chairchucker posted:Meth heads from Kentucky can say whatever I want them to say if I'm writing the story. If I wrote a story containing Kentuckish... Kentucken? Kentuckesque? Anyway, if I had them in a story they would not cuss. I'd find ways for them to make their point without doing so. They probably wouldn't say frak either because it's not just meth heads who don't say that. What if they are meth heads from the year 3056 living on a space station?
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Jan 25, 2014 16:54
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You can be impolite without cussin'.
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Jan 25, 2014 17:17
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Chairchucker posted:cussin'. Somehow I suspect your problem with overuse of a limited few incongruous words isn't really related to cursing.
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Jan 25, 2014 17:59
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neongrey posted:Somehow I suspect your problem with overuse of a limited few incongruous words isn't really related to cursing. Sorry, I'm not really sure what you're saying. Are you mocking my repeated use of the word 'cuss' or variations thereof in a conversation about cussing? Is it because I'm saying cuss rather than curse? Should I mix it up, would you prefer that? Is it the dropped 'g'? No idea really what point you're trying to make here. Are you conflating posts on a messageboard with writing in a story?
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Jan 25, 2014 18:08
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I'm saying you're fairly well demonstrating relentless overuse of a specific word, how it can stick out like a sore thumb, and how it's not really related to foul language. If it's the only word you use for a thing it doesn't look good, or reflect well on the person (be it writer, conversationalist, or character) who selected that word. Basically  is what kills phrasing dead, not the particular words themselves.
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Jan 25, 2014 18:16
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Hmmm, don't agree at all. While it is certainly true that I enjoy the word cuss (it is a fun word) I also think it is true that if you are actually talking about the same thing, it's not particularly necessary to pull out your thesaurus and use a different word to refer to the thing every time. The problem that I think there is with
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Jan 25, 2014 18:26
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By no means am I advocating the use of a thesarus, especially for conversational usage. But words need to vary in order to flow properly. In most cases where it would be important this happens without thinking about it. In this case you're actively selecting a less-common (or possibly more regional?) term, and additionally affecting it in a manner for intended effect (dropped g is generally intended to achieve a 'folksy' tone). Like I'm not trying to harp on you about this, this is just a pertinent and interesting example; intentionally or no, you're selecting and using the word in much the same way as one selects a swear word*. *in most cases. The kentucky meth heads above prrrrobably aren't using 'gently caress' for effect so much as for a comma. But that too establishes tone.
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Jan 25, 2014 18:54
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gently caress et al is like any other language tool in writing. You can use it well or use it poorly. There shouldn't be a special set of rules that applies only to foul language.
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Jan 25, 2014 22:07
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Martello posted:gently caress et al is like any other language tool in writing. You can use it well or use it poorly. There shouldn't be a special set of rules that applies only to foul language. Exactly. Take a look at Deadwood. Part of what made it memorable--especially in the third season--was the dialogue's mix of iambic cadence and modern vulgarity (and, of course, the actors and actresses that were able to pull it off). I mentioned it before, but it's worth repeating: the story is the boss. Story dictates every single thing you'll do to serve it. If swearing serves the story, you should absolutely add as much of it as you need to. If it doesn't, don't use it. But be honest about it. If you have a character who's posing and trying to sound tough, drop in fucks and cockbites and cuntmonkeys. But if you're writing a book where the point of view is from e.g. Pope Francis, you might want to reconsider. That said, Chairchucker is right about one thing: you run the risk of alienating part of your audience, depending on how far you go. Lots of readers are touchy about that sort of thing. But honesty needs to trump that consideration. Honesty and irony. A nun that swears can be an interesting character. So can a non-swearing secular vegetarian mass murderer.
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Jan 25, 2014 22:32
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3Romeo posted:Exactly. So can a nun who doesn't swear and a mass-murderer who does. Not every story requires swearing. Not every author needs to be willing to tell every kind of story or to use every word. Unless you are reading a fairly narrow category of books, you have probably read several books that contain no swear words and didn't even notice. Swearing is optional most of the time. I would say 95% of the time, maybe more. Every guideline in writing boils down to "do what works." Sure, swearing can work. Sometimes it might even be the only thing that works. But ultimately what works is subjective, and each author has to figure it out for themselves. I say the best way to do that is by reading a lot of fiction and getting a "feel" for it, rather than trying to distill some sort of formula. All the guidelines you end up with are subjective anyway. "If it serves the story." What does that mean? How can you tell? I can't answer that, but as you read and write, you start to develop a sense for it. Sometimes you can take a specific example and break it down, and analyze it, and figure out exactly why that one thing works there. But it won't be a universal rule. In fact, something else might have worked just as well. And you can be certain that another author somewhere has done the opposite and made it work.
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Jan 26, 2014 00:21
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What do you guys think about themed thesauri? I'm not a native speaker and often I'll think of a scene I want to describe, or a certain emotion I want to convey, but I can't come up with the right words. I know that the road to an intuitive vocabulary leads through tons of reading, but I figure stuff like this might help? On the other hand, whenever I hear the words 'thesaurus' uttered by goons it sounds like a grave insult so I dunno.
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Jan 26, 2014 00:25
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Good stuff. Seconded. "Do what works" is so goddamned vague it's maddening, but you know it when you have it because the story makes some heat. In regards to swearing--even though I'm a fan of it when it's done well, I admire the hell out of Lee Child for rarely, if ever, using it in his books.* Most authors would make those characters swear every fourth word, but he doesn't. Good example of flipping a rule around and doing it well. *Not to say the Reacher stories don't have some problems, because they do, but they're just fun to read.
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Jan 26, 2014 00:31
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I use a thesaurus all the time. The problem is that you have to already be familiar enough with the synonyms it gives you to understand their connotations - i.e. don't use a thesaurus to find words that you wouldn't otherwise have used; use it to find that one perfect word that was on the tip of your tongue but that you just couldn't quite come up with. Like, my process for using a thesaurus looks like "man, I need a word that will convey that this object is brand new, or hasn't been touched before. Untouched? Well, there's a problem - the narrator doesn't know whether it's been touched or not, he just knows what it looks like. Same problem with 'brand-new'. Shiny? Sparkling? Well, no, you wouldn't describe a wooden object as shiny..." and then I go to the thesaurus and come up with something like 'pristine'.
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Jan 26, 2014 00:32
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I'm surprised there are many people out there for whom curses, swears, and other vulgar language "leaps off the page." I'm not talking about overdone cursing, or out of character cursing, but any cursing in general. Do those of you saying that have the same issues with cursing in film? What about music? If a friend curses, will it bother you? And what audience are we talking about here? And (this is a real question, not sarcastic) are there really a lot of people that are okay with going to R-Rated movies but aren't okay with reading similar language? In an age where even young adult books are filled with violence, heavy themes, sexuality, drugs, abuse, and who knows what, that there are a lot of people for whom dirty words are the limit?
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Jan 26, 2014 01:44
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So has anyone here ever put finished reading a story and gone "man, that was great but it could've used more swears"?
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Jan 26, 2014 02:21
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No, because the awkwardness in phrasing you get from avoiding swears in way that their absence is noticable is a really good way to make something an unpleasant read. If you don't need them don't use them, but conscious avoidance for the sake of it is painful.
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Jan 26, 2014 02:30
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I don't think you can compare profanity across mediums, though. I think it is easier to over-do it on the page than in spoken dialogue, and needs to be treated accordingly. Compared to speech, it does tend to "leap off the page," but so does any repeated word or sentiment. You tend to get the opposite effect with sex or violence, where visual representations can have a stronger, potentially more exploitative impact than a written description. Even so, profanity, sex, and violence are the easiest crutches when it comes to goosing the reader or viewer's emotions, and as such they're often abused through the confusion of "adult content" with "mature content." It's insulting to me that a writer (in any medium) would try to pull that gimmick on me in the hopes I'll confuse it for actual style or content, so my tolerance level is short unless they can prove they know what they're doing.
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Jan 26, 2014 02:40
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neongrey posted:No, because the awkwardness in phrasing you get from avoiding swears in way that their absence is noticable is a really good way to make something an unpleasant read. It's really not that noticeable, though. John Grisham doesn't use any swear words and no one is like "where were all the swears?" It's really not that hard to write without them in most cases. If it's hard for you, go ahead and use them, but don't act like all books with out curse words are painfully awkward.
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Jan 26, 2014 02:49
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I'm not? Like I said, if you don't have a call for it don't use it, but if a text's avoidance of swear words is obvious, it's going to hurt the flow of that text. It's pretty easy to tell when someone's explicitly phrasing around swears, as opposed to constructing the language such that they're not needed. e: Like it was a specific answer to that question. You don't come out of reading something saying 'that was great but it needed more swears' because if it was great, there weren't obvious holes in the text where swears should have been. neongrey fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 02:57
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Crisco Kid posted:
My favorite genres to read are literary fiction and various subgenres of comedy/satire, with the occasional mystery (generally post-Agatha Christie) thrown in, so I don't really see sex and violence and other naughty things like that as "gimmicks" so much as I see them as "parts of the everyday world portrayed and sometimes exaggerated for my entertainment and education." Which isn't to say that such things can't be done poorly, or superfluously, or tastelessly. But I tend to accept them as things that often crop up in art, so I'm willing to give an artist the benefit of the doubt. edit: Whatever you think of Stephen King's writing, his book On Writing is considered one of the better books about writing out there, and he has a great bit about verisimilitude and cursing. Christmas Jones fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 03:01
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neongrey posted:It's pretty easy to tell when someone's explicitly phrasing around swears, as opposed to constructing the language such that they're not needed. Yeah. It's called "bad writing." If we're talking about good writing, that won't come up. As has been already said, the only way to get an ear for it is to read more, and pay attention. Much like everything else in this thread. I'd say that if a writer is relying on swearing constantly to show emotion, they should probably try conveying the same feelings without it, because they might just have fallen into a lazy habit they don't need. Sometimes it fits. Other times it isn't necessary. Christmas Jones posted:And (this is a real question, not sarcastic) are there really a lot of people that are okay with going to R-Rated movies but aren't okay with reading similar language? The people who can't stand cussin' (  ) in books probably aren't viewing other media with it, either. Even if they are, movies are a lot shorter than books, with different standards in general. And if I feel like reading a story addressing mature themes, it doesn't necessarily mean I want to read a character swearing like it's a comma for the duration. These things are not really connected.Christmas Jones posted:I don't really see sex and violence and other naughty things like that as "gimmicks" so much as I see them as "parts of the everyday world portrayed and sometimes exaggerated for my entertainment and education." It's almost like people have different experiences, opinions and preferences on the sorts of things they find entertaining. Who knew?
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Jan 26, 2014 03:46
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Echo Cian posted:It's almost like people have different experiences, opinions and preferences on the sorts of things they find entertaining. Who knew? I find myself constantly baffled by how conservative (in values, in the subject matter they choose to portray) writers can be. Which I suppose is a lesson I'll eventually learn if it gets hammered into my skull enough. Not that it's wrong, not that it means they shouldn't be writers, not that it means that their writing isn't worth checking out, not that all writing should ape Tarantino. And certainly not that I expect the artistic temperament of others to match my own or that of my inspirations. But having said that, I still find it a bit shocking that such a thing as cursing, ultimately harmless except to a society's mores, an everyday fixture of speech across most classes, something that frankly anyone who posts on SA should be pretty used to, is being looked down on as a crutch for poor writers and/or as the vice of people whose stories aren't worth telling. Or maybe I'm missing something, and there are a lot of pieces of writing out there where authors really do start inserting swear words willy-nilly because they don't understand how human emotion works. If I'd run across more of those pieces, maybe I'd agree with the thread more. I could also go on a boilerplate rant about how you can have kids murder each other in children's entertainment as long as they don't say "loving cumsluts," but I think we've all heard that one before.
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Jan 26, 2014 04:25
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Echo Cian posted:Yeah. It's called "bad writing." That's my point exactly, yeah. I was really only arguing with the 'never swear ever' camp. And when you start framing your language around avoiding swearing it's just not going to sound natural. You lose a certain amount of expressiveness when you start closing yourself off from a big category of words. This is one of the standard showcases for what you can do with swearing, and it's deliberately contrived, of course-- you wouldn't re-create the scene or anything, but there's a lot of articulation you can get. When you lock yourself out of specific classes of words, you lock yourself out of a lot of tones and connotations.
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Jan 26, 2014 04:42
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Christmas Jones posted:
critted this for you.
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Jan 26, 2014 04:46
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neongrey posted:That's my point exactly, yeah. I was really only arguing with the 'never swear ever' camp. That doesn't exist? Chairchucker said that he, personally, wouldn't use swearing in his writing. Not swearing fits perfectly well with his tone, so trying to make him an example of whatever your point is really doesn't work. Christmas Jones posted:I could also go on a boilerplate rant about how you can have kids murder each other in children's entertainment as long as they don't say "loving cumsluts," but I think we've all heard that one before. I guess you're just rambling at this point, so see: the part of my post you quoted. Handling mature content =/= being "adult" and shocking about it, if it's not the tone the writer is after. If swearing works for the tone of a story, great; but try alternatives, because its overuse could just cheapen the impact. Someone who uses "gently caress" as a comma has less differentiation between their normal conversation and actually being mad at something, whereas someone who doesn't normally spout curse words left and right gives more impact to a scene when they do swear, because things just got that bad. It's not a matter of how people really talk (and I know plenty of people who don't swear, so that's a faulty argument; I don't in person, either), it's a matter of what serves the character, story, and tone.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:00
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neongrey posted:That's my point exactly, yeah. I was really only arguing with the 'never swear ever' camp. And when you start framing your language around avoiding swearing it's just not going to sound natural. Except there is no "never swear ever" camp. There is one poster who said that he personally would never use swear words. No one is saying no one should ever use swear words ever. Several people are saying a willingness to curse isn't necessary to be a good writer, and I don't know why you keep fighting that. You seem to think that avoiding profanity requires some big, elaborate, obvious work around, but that just isn't true. There are thousands of books out there without profanity that prove this. Curse words also aren't a "big" category of words (it's like 5-10, come on), and avoiding them doesn't put some giant limitation on your expression.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:01
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Jan 26, 2014 05:04
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Echo Cian posted:I guess you're just rambling at this point Why would you say that?
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Jan 26, 2014 05:11
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Is there any online resource which sets out the different writing styles used in world folklore? E.G. How the Arabian Nights's style is obviously different from the Poetic Edda. I'm trying to find out what are the key things that separate them to be distinctive. Hi I'm sure you foul-language connoisseurs find the usage of naughty words very fascinating but I would like some help with my genuine question quoted above, please 
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Jan 26, 2014 05:14
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I can't help but wonder if it's a question of class and regard. I believe polite, intellectual society elevates literature above filmed entertainment; therefore, writers of "literature" are expected to behave according to the rules of polite society. Of course, as culture marches on and swears lose their power, it's easier to accept their presence, but that more still has a hold, still tells people "Hey, don't overdo it or you'll look like one of the groundlings." Bear in mind, I'm not advocating that we burn it down or anything like that. (EDIT: And I certainly don't intend to paint all writers who refuse to swear as a bunch of stick-up-the-rear end fun vampires.) When I think "Great Passages of Literature," even I don't think any of them include phrases like "Go gently caress yourself motherfucker," "Eat poo poo you slimy little cuntpunch," or "God dammit what a beautiful fuckin' day, huh?" But I think it's less a tenet of "good/bad writing" (though that's certainly present) and more of a personal social issue. In the end, writers just have to keep in mind that certain words have power with diminishing returns. Deploy them well and they'll give your piece a certain flavor. Deploy them poorly and you look like an idiot. Which is really what most people have been saying from the get-go. DivisionPost fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 05:18
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Christmas Jones posted:Why would you say that? A personal rant on your frustrations with whether or not other people like cursing are irrelevant to a thread on Ficton Writing: Advice and Discussion, which seems to be a point of frustration when we answer from a fiction writing standpoint. To put it bluntly, all that matters is whether the use of cursing or not fits the tone of the story, and starting on a personal rant has nothing to do with the subject at hand. Some of us thinking that jumping straight to "loving fuckcunts gently caress you" is a bad idea when there are other ways of showing frustration in a scene is not an insult to you. Suggesting ways to vary and improve writing that don't involve falling back on the same thing does not mean that any of us are saying that no one should use swearing, ever - merely that it is a tool that can be overused, much like book-saidisms. Let's not completely go off the subject here.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:21
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Echo Cian posted:A personal rant on your frustrations with whether or not other people like cursing are irrelevant to a thread on Ficton Writing: Advice and Discussion, which seems to be a point of frustration when we answer from a fiction writing standpoint. Then simply: A part of writing is also to portray your subject authentically, which can be just as important as self-censoring to preserve an audience. Nor was my expressing frustration intended as an insult to you.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:32
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e: never mind, let's just let this die
curlingiron fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 05:38
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Christmas Jones posted:Then simply: A part of writing is also to portray your subject authentically, which can be just as important as self-censoring to preserve an audience. If being authentic to people that swear a lot suits your tone, then write a lot of swears. If it doesn't, then don't. I'm glad we agree on what I've been saying this entire time.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:41
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I think the subject of how and why one selects specific words to establish tone is fascinating, and I think dismissing the potential of vulgarity in doing so is nonsensical, is all. v vI probably veered off course far too far at various points. Sorry, it's been a long day.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:45
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Christmas Jones posted:I find myself constantly baffled by how conservative (in values, in the subject matter they choose to portray) writers can be. Which I suppose is a lesson I'll eventually learn if it gets hammered into my skull enough. Take HBO. In the first few seasons of True Blood, the sweet Christian girl-next-door protagonist rarely curses, but when she does it underscores how serious the situation has gotten. Goofy and campy, but not bad. By the last few seasons every single character is dropping "gently caress" left and right, regardless of how little sense it makes given their background. The dialogue is "edgy," and it's also interchangeable. That's bad writing! In Deadwood there's cussin' aplenty, but Al Swearengen never curses or speaks like Calamity Jane, who doesn't cuss or speak like Seth Bullock, who doesn't speak like Alma Garret, who never curses. That's good writing! You mention Tarantino. I enjoy Tarantino as a director, and though he never shies away from extreme language or gore, I find he is generally self-aware enough to not veer into the exploitative. The way he frames violence in, for example, Inglorious Basterds, is ironic as hell and demands as many questions of the audiences as it does of the characters, which is far different from the portrayal of violence in a splatterporn flick. Or the Bride in Kill Bill? She is a figure of sexual desire, but she is also allowed to be dirty and unsexy and in pain and have her own arc and be an adult and have agency in a way that none of the female characters in Suckerpunch ever do. Tarantino is controversial, but the fact that he actually warrants conversation and debate is more than you can say for many filmmakers. Sex, profanity, and violence have no inherent value either way, so they must be viewed in context of the work. And honestly, the lazy way they're often used warrants strong critique. (see also: your avatar) Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 06:08
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The Saddest Rhino posted:Hi I'm sure you foul-language connoisseurs find the usage of naughty words very fascinating but I would like some help with my genuine question quoted above, please How do you mean writing styles? Like in wording and structure, or theme? It will be a lot easier to find common themes and occasionally structures in regional folklore as opposed to prose style, unless you stick to really distinct formats like the sagas. Anything less obvious than saga formats or West African word repetition, etc. won't be recognizable enough to register as different to most readers. I've seen linguistic, structural, and psychological approaches, and there's the Aarne-Thompson classification system, but it sounds like maybe "comparative mythology" as a general search might be more useful to you. Crisco Kid fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 06:13
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Crisco Kid posted:As (very) many others have said, it's not about being conservative or limiting the subjects that can or should be addressed, it's how they are addressed. And the reason you're not seeing "a lot of pieces of writing out there where authors really do start inserting swear words willy-nilly" is because you're generally reading edited, published writers. Excess IS an earmark of amateur, flawed writing that this thread hopes to correct. You're not seeing it in professional works for a reason -- it's not professional. I like the way you put this! All I really disagreed with were the idea that cursing would alienate a sizable portion of the audience (which might be true after all, but I don't think it should) and the assumption that cursing is a crutch. I absolutely agree with the points that vulgarities are tools, that they can be used well or poorly, that cursing should not be included if the character in question would not curse, all that good stuff. I'm glad you brought up Sucker Punch. I can't think of a time I've been more disappointed by the writing in a movie. It could have said so much about violence as a coping mechanism, sex as a weapon, exploitation in the media, the way women without agency attempt to find it. But it was a failure at all of those things. Part of it was because Zack Snyder shoved violence and sexuality into the script without thinking of how he was using them (poorly used tools, the point that everyone was making). But there was also a problem with its authenticity (the point that I was making): A PG-13 violent revenge fantasy taking place in a brothel that couldn't allow itself to show actual sex. Or show the gory consequences of violence. Or let its sex workers talk like sex workers. Maybe that's another lesson: trying to have it both ways and please everyone leaves you with Sucker Punch.
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Jan 26, 2014 07:00
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