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Fly Molo posted:And I still subscribe to the theory that Logen is an enormous badass, no spirit demons required. The Bloody Nine never performs anything overtly superhuman, he's just an utter oval office who lets out his inner rear end in a top hat sometimes. Otherwise none of the Named Men he dueled in the circle would've been shown any mercy.
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Jan 22, 2014 17:41
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FordPRefectLL posted:One of my favorite things is that magic is never spelled out. It isn't so codified that it has become a science in its own right, and by Red Country it seems that Bayaz has spent less time using magic and more time mining through his knowledge of Kanedias's techniques to force the Union into an industrial revolution. I think Khalul was doing the same thing in the Gurkish Empire, just not as well as Bayaz at this point. I agree with this. It's one of the reasons I found Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy kind of offputting. All the magic rules are spelled out like it's an RPG sourcebook.
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Jan 23, 2014 00:35
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I'm about 2/3 of the way through Before they are Hanged and I'm just about ready to quit this series. A good deal of the chapters are just characters walking somewhere, describing the others with them from their POV. I get it, Ferro doesn't trust anyone and she scowls all the time. Logen thinks he's too good to be with all these weirdos. Longfoot talks too much. I see the development happening but it's so slow and unsatisfying. The walking is periodically interrupted by a battle that goes on too long and has no real tension because all the characters have plot armor. Who has even died so far in this series, Forley and Ladisla? I'm not looking for GRRM-style mass character deaths here, but what's the point of having so many battles when the worst that can happen is Bayaz and Jezal getting some injuries that have mostly healed within a few chapters? The most interesting chapters have of course been Glockta's but even those seemed to have gone nowhere, with a dozen chapters of futilely defending Dagoska before leaving on a boat. I found the first book a lot enjoyable than this one, to be honest. I'm hoping you guys can assure me the last third of the book and the third book in the series get better.
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Jan 23, 2014 02:32
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bowser posted:the last third of the book and the third book in the series get better. This bit here is as true as true gets.
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Jan 23, 2014 02:42
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Then you get to the standalones and it is even better.
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Jan 23, 2014 02:44
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bowser posted:...last third of the book and the third book in the series get better. The last third of the third book is probably in my top five of all scifi/fantasy books I've ever read. Some parts in the second book aren't as good, but there's definitely light at the end of the tunnel.
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Jan 23, 2014 05:40
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Smellem Sexbad posted:What I really liked is how Abercrombie was able to actually write some interesting female characters. Monza and Shy are extremely well written and memorable, and this was an improvement over the women portrayed in the First Law Trilogy. Not that the women in the first trilogy were at Rothfuss levels or anything, but they weren't as complex. Well, we see some improvement in his portrayal of women. Ferro in First Law is just atrocious, and I guess Shy and Monza are better, but well written? We're still talking about an author that basically have pulled his character archetypes from a comic.
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Jan 23, 2014 10:23
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Just replace "extremely well written" with "better written." We all know Abercrombie isn't Shakespeare
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Jan 23, 2014 17:30
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I just finished reading Red Country this afternoon. I was really pleased with it for the most part, and I stand by my earlier statement that I like it better than The Heroes. That said, when I finished the book I started looking into information on what Joe Abercrombie is up to next. On his blog he talks about his new YA trilogy, and he said this:quote:Though I’m very happy with and proud of the result, Red Country was a difficult book to write. I felt at times somewhat uninspired. Somewhat burned out. And I think that's the one thing that I felt wasn't so great about Red Country. The book was still excellent, but I could feel that sense of burn out coming off his writing, somehow. I did enjoy seeing some of our most iconic characters, Logen and Cosca, presented from an outside perspective (as well as being from the perspective of people Cosca screws over). They are truly horrible people, especially Cosca. Anyway, I liked it a lot. Not my favorite, I'd go with the entire trilogy as a whole there, but I'm so glad I finally got around to this. Now that I'm done with that and Republic of Thieves I need something new to read. drat. (Probably going to be Robert E. Howard  )By the way, is anyone going to read Half a King and the other two followups when they come out? Abercrombie says about 2017 for that to finish happening, I don't think I can wait that long for another book in the First Law setting.
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Jan 24, 2014 01:20
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Kavingi posted:By the way, is anyone going to read Half a King and the other two followups when they come out? Abercrombie says about 2017 for that to finish happening, I don't think I can wait that long for another book in the First Law setting. A number of people here have expressed interest in reading his YA trilogy, myself included. I generally steer clear of YA fiction. But it's Abercrombie and I have faith in his storytelling and that first chapter that was released was pretty solid. So I'll be getting those books for sure. There's plenty of adult fantasy out there I've been trying to get to anyway that I can fill my Abercrombie fix with the YA stuff while catching up on other series I've been trying to get to for years. The wait for a new First Law book is going to be tough, for sure. But I think we are all going to benefit from this break in the long run. If Joe needs to step away from that world for a little bit to refresh himself, I trust him fully. I can be patient. Gods know I've had the practice with George loving Martin. At least Joe has been pretty much matching his book-a-year quota for the most part.
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Jan 24, 2014 05:43
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Half a King will be the first time I've purchased a YA book. I don't have anything against YA, I just feel like there's enough out there for me to read without needing to bother with books ostensibly aimed at people half my age. But, as UncleMonkey said, this is Abercrombie.
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Jan 24, 2014 05:50
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UncleMonkey posted:Did he say the YA books wouldn't finish until 2017? I'm pretty sure he said that would be around the time frame to expect the books in the next First Law trilogy to start coming out. And before then we should also get a collection of all the short stories he's written. I still haven't read any of those, so I'll be looking forward to that. As a fellow ASOIAF reader I fully agree regarding George Rail Road Martin. I must have misread/misremembered the blog post, but 2017 is what I thought would be where we'd see the new book in the First Law book. I don't want to say I'm unhappy with the break, like I said I could kind of feel some of that burnout coming through when I read it. Likewise I don't get into YA things, I can say with a certainty that the last book along that vein that I read was the last Harry Potter (which I chewed through when it first came out). I think it'll be worth checking out for sure. It's actually been a while since I read through the trilogy, so I'm considering it. I had to look up who The Mayor of Crease actually was, and then after seeing her name I actually had to go and look and find even more about her, since I'd managed to forget her entirely (though the name was a fuzzy memory).
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Jan 24, 2014 06:40
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Kavingi posted:As a fellow ASOIAF reader I fully agree regarding George Rail Road Martin. I must have misread/misremembered the blog post, but 2017 is what I thought would be where we'd see the new book in the First Law book. I don't want to say I'm unhappy with the break, like I said I could kind of feel some of that burnout coming through when I read it. Likewise I don't get into YA things, I can say with a certainty that the last book along that vein that I read was the last Harry Potter (which I chewed through when it first came out). I think it'll be worth checking out for sure. The Mayor/Carlot is significant because the reason Shivers walks away from Logen is that they realize they are Eskimo brothers, a sacred thing in the north.
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Jan 24, 2014 13:39
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bowser posted:I'm about 2/3 of the way through Before they are Hanged and I'm It doesn't. The second book is the absolute high point of the series, and the third book really puts an exclamation point on the bizarre, pussy-rear end philosophy Abercrombie applies to the series. In the end none of the characters change one iota, and are slaves to their circumstances and past and refuse to change or break the mold they've cast for themselves. It isn't a critique of this sort of thinking either, it feels more like Abercrombie's actual worldview. So after three books you get 0 character progression, which cast against the backdrop he builds (basically everyone dies or gets sick, and if they don't they just keep on doing the same poo poo they did before the series started) reveals this kind of already-defeated attitude that just reeks of juvenile horseshit. There's seriously no point to the entire series, unless you get off on nasty torture scenes or Glokta dragging his lame-rear end leg around. One of the most paper-thin bunches of crap I've ever read. Needless to say I won't ever read anything Abercrombie writes ever again.
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Jan 25, 2014 01:58
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UncleMonkey posted:Did he say the YA books wouldn't finish until 2017? I'm pretty sure he said that would be around the time frame to expect the books in the next First Law trilogy to start coming out. And before then we should also get a collection of all the short stories he's written. I still haven't read any of those, so I'll be looking forward to that. I'll definitely be reading it as soon as it comes out. So far, I've enjoyed everything Abercrombie's written enough that he's a must-read for me no matter what the book's subject matter/genre and I'm very interested to see how he adapts his dialogue, tone and characterization to young adult. Also, I'm glad that he's switched up and taken a break from the First Law world if he's not feeling it. I'd much rather a writer being up front and honest about their motivations for writing or not writing, instead of being fake and silly about it to protect their brand/franchise(yeah, I've been through the GRRM ringer too).
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Jan 25, 2014 02:31
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bowser posted:I'm about 2/3 of the way through Before they are Hanged and I'm Keep reading, most of book 2 is just set-up for poo poo going absolutely crazy in the final book of the trilogy. Last Argument of Kings will make you regret your words about wishing more characters would die, and will radically change what you think you know about the characters. It sounds frustrating to have to read one book for payoff in the next one, but what a payoff it is!
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Jan 25, 2014 07:25
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I started reading these after recommendation from a friend, and I have to say they are perhaps the best fantasy I've ever read. Joe writes such intriguing and deep characters, made even more interesting by the fact that I love how grim and lovely the world is. Some pages back there was a discussion about themes in the book, specifically "can people change". I think it's summed up best by something Cosca says in BSC. I have the books on my nook so I can't find the specific quote, but I believe it's right after he kills morveer and then resumes drinking and someone around him remarks that he's drinking again. He says something like "People often change, and just as often, they change back". Throughout the books some people try so hard to change, and some do, but just as often circumstances cause them to change right back.
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Jan 25, 2014 08:33
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If Gorst ends up becoming a whoring boozehound again I think that observation will be beyond all reproach.
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Jan 25, 2014 08:40
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Captain Amerikkka posted:It doesn't. The second book is the absolute high point of the series, and the third book really puts an exclamation point on the bizarre, pussy-rear end philosophy Abercrombie applies to the series. In the end none of the characters change one iota, and are slaves to their circumstances and past and refuse to change or break the mold they've cast for themselves. It isn't a critique of this sort of thinking either, it feels more like Abercrombie's actual worldview. So after three books you get 0 character progression, which cast against the backdrop he builds (basically everyone dies or gets sick, and if they don't they just keep on doing the same poo poo they did before the series started) reveals this kind of already-defeated attitude that just reeks of juvenile horseshit. There's seriously no point to the entire series, unless you get off on nasty torture scenes or Glokta dragging his lame-rear end leg around. One of the most paper-thin bunches of crap I've ever read. Needless to say I won't ever read anything Abercrombie writes ever again. One of the main points of the books was that the characters are forced to be the way they are, either from refusal to change or due to outside influences. Jezal tries to stand up for himself, Bayaz smacks him down. Ninefingers tries to move past his previous violence, a member of the crew he's built up from that violent reputation turns on him, Glokta learns a major source of his loathing, West abandoning him, never happened at all yet can't let go, etc. The First Law started as the typical fantasy novel but the series derailed hard when the concept of "long living mage" was explored as something other then "benevolent adviser to humanity"
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Jan 25, 2014 10:35
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pentyne posted:One of the main points of the books was that the characters are forced to be the way they are, either from refusal to change or due to outside influences. Which gives you what? Basically a bunch of archetypes with 0 value in terms of characterization. quote:Jezal tries to stand up for himself, Bayaz smacks him down. Ninefingers tries to move past his previous violence, a member of the crew he's built up from that violent reputation turns on him, Glokta learns a major source of his loathing, West abandoning him, never happened at all yet can't let go, etc. That's what's stupid about it though. All of his characters are pathetic losers with almost 0 redeeming character traits. It's not even that they're bad, evil, etc. they're just total wieners. quote:The First Law started as the typical fantasy novel but the series derailed hard when the concept of "long living mage" was explored as something other then "benevolent adviser to humanity" Other than Bayaz vacillating between grumpy old rear end in a top hat and somewhat polite dude he didn't really explore it all until the very end, and it didn't make any goddamn sense whatsoever. Like I said, the whole series is an exercise in futility. The ending is about as satisfying as reading all the incessant whining that occurs in the internal dialogue of the characters throughout the series.
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Jan 26, 2014 02:58
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'Pussy-rear end philosophy' is the funniest thing I've seen in this thread in ages, well done.
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Jan 26, 2014 03:43
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Captain Amerikkka posted:Which gives you what? Basically a bunch of archetypes with 0 value in terms of characterization.
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Jan 26, 2014 04:57
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The characterization is poo poo, and are you seriously comparing Captain Ahab and King Lear to loving Logan Ninefingers? Hahahahaha
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Jan 26, 2014 05:00
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Captain Amerikkka posted:The characterization is poo poo, and are you seriously comparing Captain Ahab and King Lear to loving Logan Ninefingers? Hahahahaha 
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Jan 26, 2014 05:01
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Above Our Own posted:Lmao thanks for pointing out that a popular fantasy fiction writer literally isn't shakespeare If you can't see why comparing fantasy pulp to Shakespeare is idiotic I don't know what to tell you.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:03
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Captain Amerikkka posted:If you can't see why comparing fantasy pulp to Shakespeare is idiotic I don't know what to tell you.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:06
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Above Our Own posted:What I think is idiotic is your criticism of the characters based on their lack of internal change Just ignore him, I have a feeling he gets gets a kick out of being contrary and hating popular things.
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Jan 26, 2014 05:11
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Above Our Own posted:What I think is idiotic is your criticism of the characters based on their lack of internal change What I think is idiotic is comparing authors of classic literature/the most important playwright in the Western World to Joe "Glokta sucked on his teeth" Abercrombie. Beyond that my criticism is perfectly valid, and in terms of encouraging someone who thought the second book sucked not to bother finishing the series it's perfectly appropriate here. You think it's great to read like 1500 pages of people grappling with wanting to do something different but doing the same crap all the time (or Glotka dragging his crippled rear end around painfully, or Jezal worrying about his stupid face)? Awesome. Good for you. I found the whole thing to be a horribly stupid waste of time because of it. I know what Abercrombie was going for and I think he failed miserably, not the least of which has to do with the fact that he's a lovely writer. Mr.48 posted:Just ignore him, I have a feeling he gets gets a kick out of being contrary and hating popular things. I really don't at all. I enjoy probably 95% of what I read. I read and enjoyed nearly everything in the Shannara series despite knowing it wasn't great. First Law is a miserable failure on nearly every front in terms of writing, characterization, and overall storytelling. Captain Amerikkka fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 05:13
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pussy rear end philosphy e. Captain Amerikkka posted:What I think is idiotic is comparing authors of classic literature/the most important playwright in the Western World to Joe "Glokta sucked on his teeth" Abercrombie. Beyond that my criticism is per
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Jan 26, 2014 05:17
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Captain Amerikkka posted:What I think is idiotic is comparing authors of classic literature/the most important playwright in the Western World to Joe "Glokta sucked on his teeth" Abercrombie. Beyond that my criticism is perfectly valid, and in terms of encouraging someone who thought the second book sucked not to bother finishing the series it's perfectly appropriate here. You think it's great to read like 1500 pages of people grappling with wanting to do something different but doing the same crap all the time (or Glotka dragging his crippled rear end around painfully, or Jezal worrying about his stupid face)? Awesome. Good for you. I found the whole thing to be a horribly stupid waste of time because of it. I know what Abercrombie was going for and I think he failed miserably, not the least of which has to do with the fact that he's a lovely writer. Have you considered that since you are in the tiny minority of people who didnt like The First Law, perhaps it was your reading of the books and not the books themselves that are at fault for your dislike? Maybe you were in the wrong mood, maybe something clicked just the wrong way in your head, who knows? My point is that the reviews and reader impressions of the books are overwhelmingly great, so to suggest that you and (maybe) a handful others are the only ones who see through Abercrombie's bullshit and all the rest of us are wrong is a bit far-fetched.
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Jan 26, 2014 06:58
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I like the books a lot too but his criticism is pretty valid, it is fine for some characters not to change but it's weird that none of them do and his post added to the thread by making me think critically about the book. Also y'all are responding to criticism like console warriors, jus sayin'. READ THE REVIEWS DUDE THIS BOOK GOT 3.5 STARS YOU ARE RETARDED GAMESPOT GAVE IT A 9/10. Seriously like: List of POVs who change positively: Jezal...a little Temple stops running away from things Beck Change negatively: Shivers Don't change at all: Logen Bayaz Glokta West Ferro Cosca(I think he had a POV?) Vitari Morveer Friendly Shenkt Gorst Calder - (okay maybe a little bit, but he mostly says the same) Craw Finree Flood Not sure: Monza - ehh I don't think so Shy - don't remember well enough Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 07:15
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Yes, to agree with the majority is to be correct. Snide bullshit aside how is Abercrombie worse than say, the Dragonlance guy? I mean, I can accept that Abercrombie isn't the greatest author and may not be remembered fifty years from now. What do you like, Captain Amerikkka? I'd love to read some of it and compare. And: thanks for the  . Fan-threads for particular authors can get a little circlejerky so it's nice to have someone break the monotony of 'oh god, can't wait for x author's next book'.I like Abercrombie's stuff but that don't mean it's beyond criticism. e: how much of this do you agree with, though? Leo Grin posted:Alas, I haven’t read it -- Abercrombie’s freshman effort, the massive First Law trilogy (The Blade Itself, Before They Were Hanged, and Last Argument of Kings) was more than enough for me. Endless scenes of torture, treachery and bloodshed drenched in scatology and profanity concluded with a resolution worthy of M. Night Shyamalan at his worst, one that did its best to hurt, disappoint, and dishearten any lover of myths and their timeless truths. Think of a Lord of the Rings where, after stringing you along for thousands of pages, all of the hobbits end up dying of cancer contracted by their proximity to the Ring, Aragorn is revealed to be a buffoonish puppet-king of no honor and false might, and Gandalf no sooner celebrates the defeat of Sauron than he executes a long-held plot to become the new Dark Lord of Middle-earth, and you have some idea of what to expect should you descend into Abercrombie's jaded literary sewer. Jeffrey posted:Also y'all are responding to criticism like console warriors, jus sayin'. READ THE REVIEWS DUDE THIS BOOK GOT 3.5 STARS YOU ARE RETARDED GAMESPOT GAVE IT A 9/10. Seriosly. e2: also, Calder changes a bunch from his appearance in The Blade Itself to The Heroes. That was all offscreen, though. It's fair to say it doesn't count. edit 3: It's fair to say that the characters get acted upon by outside forces way more than they do things of their own volition. I'll posit that that makes them more believable; it matches anecdotal experience. Grand Prize Winner fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 07:19
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Grand Prize Winner posted:e2: also, Calder changes a bunch from his appearance in The Blade Itself to The Heroes. That was all offscreen, though. It's fair to say it doesn't count.
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Jan 26, 2014 07:32
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Jeffrey posted:I like the books a lot too but his criticism is pretty valid, it is fine for some characters not to change but it's weird that none of them do and his post added to the thread by making me think critically about the book. Also y'all are responding to criticism like console warriors, jus sayin'. READ THE REVIEWS DUDE THIS BOOK GOT 3.5 STARS YOU ARE RETARDED GAMESPOT GAVE IT A 9/10.
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Jan 26, 2014 07:43
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Jeffrey posted:Yeah this is true. His personality in the trilogy seems pretty out of place for how he is written in The Heroes, having re-read the trilogy after reading The Heroes it almost seems like a continuity goof. Did Calder ever talk about how he changed, or is it just not being king poo poo of poo poo mountain under Black Dow? I think it was just that he was like 16 or something in the first trilogy and all teenagers are assholes, right? The jump in characterization didn't bother me much but yeah, it wasn't explained.
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Jan 26, 2014 09:50
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Mr.48 posted:Have you considered that since you are in the tiny minority of people who didnt like The First Law, perhaps it was your reading of the books and not the books themselves that are at fault for your dislike? Maybe you were in the wrong mood, maybe something clicked just the wrong way in your head, who knows? My point is that the reviews and reader impressions of the books are overwhelmingly great, so to suggest that you and (maybe) a handful others are the only ones who see through Abercrombie's bullshit and all the rest of us are wrong is a bit far-fetched. First Law isn't wide read at all though, so, no, I wouldn't consider the opinions of an insulated community of fans to be an overwhelming consensus on quality. I also don't give a poo poo because it doesn't mean anything.
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Jan 27, 2014 04:00
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Captain Amerikkka posted:First Law isn't wide read at all though, so, no, I wouldn't consider the opinions of an insulated community of fans to be an overwhelming consensus on quality. I also don't give a poo poo because it doesn't mean anything. Go to the Goodreads page or something? Anyway I can understand not liking a series where the entire point is that no one changes and nothing gets better, but I don't get how you think Joe is a bad writer, at least prose wise. They have some problems but they're his first books and they're still miles better than the majority of fantasy shlock.
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Jan 27, 2014 04:46
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Captain Amerikkka posted:First Law isn't wide read at all though, so, no, I wouldn't consider the opinions of an insulated community of fans to be an overwhelming consensus on quality. I also don't give a poo poo because it doesn't mean anything. The books sold well enough that Abercrombie has been contracted for another 6 novels, and each of his current books has at least 200 reviews of reviews on Amazon with no less than 4 stars each. By these objective marks, the books are definitely popular and well liked within the genre. I say that not to imply that you must like them because most others do, but to point out that while you may not appreciate the lack of change in most of Abercrombie's characters, its very hard to argue that this reflects badly on the books in terms of quality given the high acclaim they garner among the community. Its possible to dislike books while acknowledging that they're well written.
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Jan 27, 2014 06:13
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I really like Joe Abercrombie but that is a dumb argument. Twilight is very well liked. Popularity does indicate high quality.
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Jan 27, 2014 07:00
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The Puppy Bowl posted:I really like Joe Abercrombie but that is a dumb argument. Twilight is very well liked. Popularity does indicate high quality.
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Jan 27, 2014 07:08
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