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Gay Polymers posted:Yeah, I know the plastics are a cost thing. I just hate the subset of people I've met who say "I was never going to get into Warmachine because they had only metal models and I hate metal models but now they have plastics so I'll play with those, but their plastics suck!" Why do you hate those people? As a fairly new player putting together little Menoth dudes, that seems like a totally valid line of thought.
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Jan 28, 2014 19:19
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Thanks for the tips Sulecrist!Sulecrist posted:-Resist the impulse to run Laris and teleport up with Kaya for the assassination. It'll only work once and that kind of victory isn't worth having outside of a tournament (in a pinch, where it'll get you to another round and you'll lose otherwise). Fair enough, but isn't it bad play to not punish the opponent for their mistakes (in this case, allowing Laris range on their caster to pull off the assassination?) In future games, if they know of the assassination it might limit their options, but if they don't play around the assassination and I don't punish them for it... seems like a waste. My opponents are close friends outside of gaming, we've had assassinations happen in our games and everyone laughs, no one will get salty. It's actually a welcome change of pace from 40k - if I make a mistake and get assassinated, at least the loss was demonstrably my own fault! quote:-You have Dogpile so the Blackclad's value will be in his sprays and in grabbing objectives. Does the movement bonus not stack? I get that Kaya's passive ability already gives Warbeasts the free charge, but Hunter's Mark doesn't seem completely useless. But yeah, I love his spray. quote:-When you feat, place your models near Shifting Stones so that you can use Serenity to pull off Fury the next turn. Definitely a great point and a trick I use with pKaya often (also to give Primal'd beasts something to snack on).
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Jan 28, 2014 19:22
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Lord Of Texas posted:Thanks for the tips Sulecrist! Re Hunters Mark: If you have the Wilder way upfield or it's the feat turn (so the extra distance doesn't take you beyond forcing range), and if you don't think you'll spray again, you can go for it I guess, but I don't like relying on it and I almost always lose the Blackclad when I mark whether it's successful or not, so you need to ask yourself whether it's worth the two-point model. Sometimes it will be. Re lessons: You can say "Hey, I'm going to attempt an assassination run but not move any models" and then roll it out if you want to. But by using that kind of trick you're depriving both of yourselves of the opportunity to gain late-game experience, which is incredibly valuable, and I wouldn't give it up unless the attempt were essentially the only chance I would have to win that game.
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Jan 28, 2014 19:46
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Fyrbrand posted:I don' think it's that so much as plastics make more sense from a business standpoint. Prices for metals fluctuate so much more that long-term planning and pricing can be really tricky. It's a nice bonus for PP that many folks care about plastic both because it's ultimately cheaper and for easier hobbying. It was really weird for me to start paying attention to PP and see plastics after their screed in Prime about plastic being for childrens toys and how they were always going to only make metal. Saalkin posted:Battlereports? http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVSqFZiGn4cHzSk1Y_CeBMw Wargamergirl has some of the best. Mini wargaming and bluetable and some others do them to, but I can't stand them in comparison to wargamergirl. She has her flaws, but they're rad overall. Yes this exactly, thanks. Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jan 28, 2014 |
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Jan 28, 2014 19:54
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Sulecrist posted:Re Hunters Mark: If you have the Wilder way upfield or it's the feat turn (so the extra distance doesn't take you beyond forcing range), and if you don't think you'll spray again, you can go for it I guess, but I don't like relying on it and I almost always lose the Blackclad when I mark whether it's successful or not, so you need to ask yourself whether it's worth the two-point model. Sometimes it will be. To me trying that kind of stuff is like going into every game with MHSF and taking every 20-30% assassination they offer you. Sure, you'll win some games but you won't really get the fundamental soundness that'll get you through tournament play.
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Jan 28, 2014 20:13
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Sulecrist posted:Re Hunters Mark: If you have the Wilder way upfield or it's the feat turn (so the extra distance doesn't take you beyond forcing range), and if you don't think you'll spray again, you can go for it I guess, but I don't like relying on it and I almost always lose the Blackclad when I mark whether it's successful or not, so you need to ask yourself whether it's worth the two-point model. Sometimes it will be. Good points, thanks! quote:Re lessons: You can say "Hey, I'm going to attempt an assassination run but not move any models" and then roll it out if you want to. But by using that kind of trick you're depriving both of yourselves of the opportunity to gain late-game experience, which is incredibly valuable, and I wouldn't give it up unless the attempt were essentially the only chance I would have to win that game. Fair enough - this is one of those "I don't know what I don't know" situations, so I figured I'd ask. Didn't realize late-game experience was important enough to play sub-optimally to get there. Again quite new, less than 10 games under my belt. Thanks!
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Jan 28, 2014 20:28
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Any Goons here headin' to the Vegas Open next weekend? I'll be playing in the prequalifier tournaments until I (hopefully) get into the Sunday Masters, but I'll probably have time to get a pickup game or two in.
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Jan 28, 2014 20:38
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Lord Of Texas posted:Fair enough - this is one of those "I don't know what I don't know" situations, so I figured I'd ask. Didn't realize late-game experience was important enough to play sub-optimally to get there. Again quite new, less than 10 games under my belt. Thanks! Playing "sub-optimally," assuming you mean "playing in a way that is less likely to give you victory right this moment" or even "in this particular game," is indeed a very important part of getting better as a player. For someone who's never played before, the thing they can do that is most likely to get them victory is play 15-point caster kill games with pGoreshade, but at a certain point they'll want to experiment with models and techniques that will get them more losses in the short term so that they can play better in the long term. Some of it is just forcing yourself to improve, but a bigger part is just recognizing that the odds will beat you sometimes. Let's say you get incredibly lucky and catch an old man like pKreoss unbuffed and camping only one Focus. (For this to happen, your opponent needs to screw up pretty hard). He's currently 14/16 with 18 boxes. You're making five boosted P+S 11 MAT 8 attacks. On average, you do ~20 damage. So it'll work more often than not--maybe two times out of three. But if you're in a tournament, you don't only want to win 66% of your games, especially if you can't pick the order. You don't want the entire game to come down to a gambit that only works two thirds of the time. So instead, you look beyond the immediate circumstances and mitigate risk by capitalizing on things where chance is less of a factor, chiefly scenario and mass attrition. You need to play for walks, not home runs. Anyway, once you become more experienced, you can make your mind up for yourself about how focused you want to be on all-in caster-versus-caster assassination. But for now, too much of it and you'll be stunting your growth.
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Jan 28, 2014 21:24
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:It was really weird for me to start paying attention to PP and see plastics after their screed in Prime about plastic being for childrens toys and how they were always going to only make metal.  (we like to tease WMH players with this at the Infinity forums) And speaking of all-metal armies, I've decided to give the game a try. With Cyriss. I hate you all 
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Jan 28, 2014 21:43
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Issyria is such a beast to play against. My army was wiped off the table twice by her when she feated. I'm a little at a loss for what Cyiss can currently bring to bear against her. My opponent ran one heavy, MHSF and Halbradiers. The damage spikes that signs and portents gives you is amazing.
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Jan 28, 2014 22:12
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Issyria is such a beast to play against. My army was wiped off the table twice by her when she feated. I don't know Convergence well, but I would probably bring Iron Mother with a Prime Axiom and some heavy infantry when fighting Ret. With sprays. Edit: How does CoC deal with Ossyan?
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Jan 28, 2014 22:22
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Dragonshirt posted:Why do you hate those people? As a fairly new player putting together little Menoth dudes, that seems like a totally valid line of thought. I dunno, it's mostly personal feelings regarding that stuff. I feel like it's the same as people who say, "I'm going to build a Cygnar army of nothing but Storm models." And then when they find out it's not competitive, they moan about that. In fact, there are multiple people out there who only play Rhulic models and complain about them not being competitive. There are Cygnar players who refuse to look at mercenaries for their lists. If you voluntarily hamstring yourself and don't look at all of the options, you're not allowed to complain. If you personally decide you don't like metal models, and only want plastic ones, you can't complain about your selection of models or the quality of them, in my opinion. I also started with metal models and whenever people say they hate them I just know that they didn't take the time to learn to work with them. I'm really trying to not sound like a dick. This is just my opinion, and I will still play against anyone, anytime, and enjoy every second of it. I love anything that gets more people into this game. But man, do I hate that attitude sometimes.
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Jan 28, 2014 22:26
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Yeah, at low point levels MHSF is just going to beat the hell out pretty much anything because they're such a flexible unit.
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Jan 28, 2014 22:29
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Gay Polymers posted:I dunno, it's mostly personal feelings regarding that stuff. I feel like it's the same as people who say, "I'm going to build a Cygnar army of nothing but Storm models." And then when they find out it's not competitive, they moan about that. In fact, there are multiple people out there who only play Rhulic models and complain about them not being competitive. There are Cygnar players who refuse to look at mercenaries for their lists. If you voluntarily hamstring yourself and don't look at all of the options, you're not allowed to complain. If you personally decide you don't like metal models, and only want plastic ones, you can't complain about your selection of models or the quality of them, in my opinion. There's a dude in my gaming group who has a constant refrain of "But if you ignore eHaley and the Stormwall and the merc access Cygnar has nothing goooooood!" Right. And if you take out all the sex porn is pretty boring, too. I can't figure out what he wants. A bunch of equivalently OP options? Anything shy of "Better than eHaley," and he'll just keep fielding eHaley, so what's he hoping for exactly?
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Jan 28, 2014 22:52
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theironjef posted:There's a dude in my gaming group who has a constant refrain of "But if you ignore eHaley and the Stormwall and the merc access Cygnar has nothing goooooood!" Right. And if you take out all the sex porn is pretty boring, too. I can't figure out what he wants. A bunch of equivalently OP options? Anything shy of "Better than eHaley," and he'll just keep fielding eHaley, so what's he hoping for exactly? As a man of controversial opinions, I watch porn for the plot and I play Cygnar for the in-faction infantry. I am also a tremendous liar.
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Jan 28, 2014 23:05
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theironjef posted:There's a dude in my gaming group who has a constant refrain of "But if you ignore eHaley and the Stormwall and the merc access Cygnar has nothing goooooood!" Right. And if you take out all the sex porn is pretty boring, too. I can't figure out what he wants. A bunch of equivalently OP options? Anything shy of "Better than eHaley," and he'll just keep fielding eHaley, so what's he hoping for exactly? I didnt pick cygnar because I wanted a versatile army. BUT if I happened to have found myself playing them I would definitely be put off being told that my only chances at having a strong list means I need to exclude the lion share of the model range. There are people who dont want to research the ins and outs of a game before they can play a balanced match. They might just choose the army based on their aesthetic and wind up with a narrow range of well balanced choices. I feel bad for those people, not that this guy in your group is necessarily one of them.
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Jan 28, 2014 23:27
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Gay Polymers posted:I dunno, it's mostly personal feelings regarding that stuff. I feel like it's the same as people who say, "I'm going to build a Cygnar army of nothing but Storm models." And then when they find out it's not competitive, they moan about that. In fact, there are multiple people out there who only play Rhulic models and complain about them not being competitive. There are Cygnar players who refuse to look at mercenaries for their lists. If you voluntarily hamstring yourself and don't look at all of the options, you're not allowed to complain. If you personally decide you don't like metal models, and only want plastic ones, you can't complain about your selection of models or the quality of them, in my opinion. Oh yeah, look, I'm still buying 'em, and I'm scraping that flash off. But man that's a lot of cleanup. I mean, c'mon.
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Jan 28, 2014 23:52
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Sulecrist posted:I don't know Convergence well, but I would probably bring Iron Mother with a Prime Axiom and some heavy infantry when fighting Ret. With sprays. We take Lucant  We were playing practice games for our local slow grow and I played just that list; the Iron Mother and a PA. The Halbadiers killed it on feat turn. I might have to drop CoC for Menoth until the whole suite is available for tourney play.
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Jan 28, 2014 23:57
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The problem arises when a player has two competing goals and is unwilling to accept anything less than absolute satisfaction of both. If someone said "the only non-king pieces I like in chess are rooks and pawns, I'm going to spend my first seven turns feeding my knights and bishops and queen to the other side," then they had better either be the best chess player in the entire world or be capable of gracefully accepting defeat. It's fine to base purchasing and even playing decisions almost entirely on aesthetics. (I say "almost" because you must still have a warcaster, have models from the same faction, and have a certain number of points on the table). And I firmly believe that anyone who is open to at least fifty percent of the models available to him could potentially be WMW champion if they were otherwise good enough. The problem is that some players don't want to accept any kind of handicap, and other players feel uncomfortable with the level of handicap that their preferred models force upon them. My wife is this way; she's the kind of player who would want to play beast-heavy Legion without Shepherds or Forsaken. I have little sympathy for the first group. I sympathize with the second group, but it is not Privateer Press's responsibility to make sure that every possible combination of models is viable. To players who want to play with a handicap (even if they don't want it to BE a handicap) but also want to have a reasonable chance at beating their equally or better skilled opponents, I would suggest (A) deciding which side is more important and (B) asking their opponents to handicap themselves, too. I happily play with a handicap in probably half the games I play, knowing that it's an opportunity to improve my fundamentals. I'll also say, as I often do, that player skill is the most important variable by far, and it's pretty hard to have good-faith restrictions on model selection that are so severe that any resulting list is unplayable.
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Jan 28, 2014 23:58
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Storm nouns probably just need to be cheaper but what would it take to make trenchers more attractive?
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Jan 29, 2014 00:00
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jubelio posted:I didnt pick cygnar because I wanted a versatile army. BUT if I happened to have found myself playing them I would definitely be put off being told that my only chances at having a strong list means I need to exclude the lion share of the model range. There are people who dont want to research the ins and outs of a game before they can play a balanced match. They might just choose the army based on their aesthetic and wind up with a narrow range of well balanced choices. I feel bad for those people, not that this guy in your group is necessarily one of them. I think this is it exactly. My poor brother played Bretonnia in WHF, and they were the army where everything was poo poo except their knights, so his army was literally 5 units of knights and accompanying heroes. Then in Warmachine he ended up with Cygnar because he liked Stryker's stupid hair or whatever, and he's ended up where he doesn't have eHaley/Stormwall/too many mercs and he can't really compete against my Menoth tier list bullshit.
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Jan 29, 2014 00:02
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Real hurthling! posted:Storm nouns probably just need to be cheaper but what would it take to make trenchers more attractive? They'd be fine if they were cheaper, too. Smoke clouds are really nice, just not at the cost. But you can still put Trenchers in a list and succeed, it's essentially the same as playing 48 points instead of 50. Which, incidentally, I was doing by accident the last three times I tested a recent list. (I won all three times, so I didn't look at the list very hard until recently.) EDIT: I don't want to sound like I'm tooting my own horn. Sometimes I play with too much without realizing it ("Savagely cheat") and sometimes I lose anyway, that just hasn't happened more recently than the other thing. Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 00:08
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jubelio posted:I didnt pick cygnar because I wanted a versatile army. BUT if I happened to have found myself playing them I would definitely be put off being told that my only chances at having a strong list means I need to exclude the lion share of the model range. There are people who dont want to research the ins and outs of a game before they can play a balanced match. They might just choose the army based on their aesthetic and wind up with a narrow range of well balanced choices. I feel bad for those people, not that this guy in your group is necessarily one of them. He's convinced that Cryx is so OP that to play against me he's basically forced to take the Cygnar powerblock standards. Same, oddly, with my CoC. He's stuck in the fear of being matched against overpowered stuff that leads him to take samey lists that he hates even though he's not really playing against OP stuff. (I mean Syntherion is medium good sure, but actually unfair?) I guess my big issue is that they already gave Cygnar their piece of the good model pie, and it's "huge access to nearly every merc." If you give them something new these days with intent for players to use it, it has to be in theme and also as good or better than nearly every merc. PP poo poo the bed there, they really should have been tighter about handing out merc access to everyone. theironjef fucked around with this message at 00:15 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 00:12
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For our Skorne players, what do you think the best infantry to use with eMakeda is? The vengeance on swordsmen is nice, but 13/14 makes me wince, and the 13/13 of nihilators makes me wince even more. Without any defensive upkeeps it just seems like any skorne infantry brought with her is going to die in droves, so I'm not really sure what to do there.
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Jan 29, 2014 00:18
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Sulecrist posted:They'd be fine if they were cheaper, too. Smoke clouds are really nice, just not at the cost. But you can still put Trenchers in a list and succeed, it's essentially the same as playing 48 points instead of 50. Which, incidentally, I was doing by accident the last three times I tested a recent list. (I won all three times, so I didn't look at the list very hard until recently.) Trenchers are in the sort of boat where their ideal target is infantry but they're like the fourth best in faction unit at infantry chewing and easily the most expensive and least diverse. It's not to say they can't work, but they have ten zillion rules that do different things and can't really use them all at once. A pared down 4/6 unit that got some of the rules back with a 2 point UA and/or a 2 point solo would actually be an interesting choice, but honestly they are outclassed by Rangers, Nyss, Gun mages, even long gunners. The stormdudes don't have the defensive statline to make it up the field, and the support that does make them able to do it is super-expensive. Also I think a lot of the cygnar warcaster group has some good stuff to recommend them, aside from maybe sloan, Blaize(in Cygnar anyway), and Darius. The rest have some good tech that will get things wrecked.
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Jan 29, 2014 00:38
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Khisanth Magus posted:For our Skorne players, what do you think the best infantry to use with eMakeda is? The vengeance on swordsmen is nice, but 13/14 makes me wince, and the 13/13 of nihilators makes me wince even more. Without any defensive upkeeps it just seems like any skorne infantry brought with her is going to die in droves, so I'm not really sure what to do there. 13/14 is that special level of victim stat where they're easy to kill by accident but hard to exterminate (POW 7 blast damage only kills two in five, RAT 6 POW 10 guns only kill one in two) and Swordsmen have excellent melee threat with her. Inspiration keeps them moving forward. I dunno man I don't play Skorne or know them that well but fearless Swordsmen with Vengeance seem pretty sweet even if only a third make it there.
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Jan 29, 2014 00:41
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Khisanth Magus posted:For our Skorne players, what do you think the best infantry to use with eMakeda is? The vengeance on swordsmen is nice, but 13/14 makes me wince, and the 13/13 of nihilators makes me wince even more. Without any defensive upkeeps it just seems like any skorne infantry brought with her is going to die in droves, so I'm not really sure what to do there. Infantry is not really eMak's main schtick, but Nhilators backed up by a TyCom are pretty legit with boosted berserk and pseudo steady.
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Jan 29, 2014 00:45
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I like swordsmen, the elite cadre is nice combined with stay death. That being said she works with Cetrati, Nihilators etc. My suggestion is try different units as it does depend a bit on what other stuff you are taking in the list and what you are designing it to handle. What I do like about swordsmen though as opposed to other choices is they are 8 points (you will take the UA) and they are enough of a threat that you opponent has to deal with them or on feat turn they will have 11 side stepping, free strike ignoring, immune to knockdown guys with boosted attack rolls chopping them to pieces. Between Perfect/Penetrating strike you also have a real threat against jacks/beasts and high arm single wound infantry. The main challenge is delivering enough of the unit alive to kill stuff although if most of the unit is dead is it because my opponent invested a lot of resources in getting rid of them? This is a lists I have been testing. So far the list has preformed really well (Venators are just so good) the only thing I don't like about it is I can't fit a Shaman in, he is just such a good toolbox and his absence somewhat diminishes the number of lists I can safely field it against. System: Hordes Faction: Skorne Casters: 1/1 Points: 50/50 Supreme Archdomina Makeda (*5pts) * Bronzeback Titan (10pts) * Molik Karn (11pts) * Titan Gladiator (8pts) Paingiver Beast Handlers (Leader and 3 Grunts) (2pts) Praetorian Swordsmen (Leader and 9 Grunts) (6pts) * Praetorian Swordsmen Officer & Standard (2pts) Tyrant Commander & Standard Bearer (3pts) Venators Reivers (Leader and 9 Grunts) (9pts) * Venators Reiver Officer & Standard (2pts) Agonizer (2pts)
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Jan 29, 2014 00:56
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Gay Polymers posted:Also, Bastions were the first plastic sculpt ever, so they are a little rougher than some of the new ones. The house guard riflemen are the most recently released plastic unit. It hasn't gotten much, if any, better.
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Jan 29, 2014 01:13
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I love the PP models and will probably end up buying a second unit of bastions (Or more likely converting them from cinerators) because I'm gay for knights inside impossible armor but after coming from GW stuff the mold lines can just be the most frustrating thing in the world. It's like they made the master model and then gave them to intern to break apart and plot the molds.
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Jan 29, 2014 02:04
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GEMorris posted:The house guard riflemen are the most recently released plastic unit. It hasn't gotten much, if any, better. Eh, the ones that were designed to be plastic are pretty great. I'm completely in love with the Convergence medium-based infantry.
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Jan 29, 2014 02:08
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Khisanth Magus posted:For our Skorne players, what do you think the best infantry to use with eMakeda is? The vengeance on swordsmen is nice, but 13/14 makes me wince, and the 13/13 of nihilators makes me wince even more. Without any defensive upkeeps it just seems like any skorne infantry brought with her is going to die in droves, so I'm not really sure what to do there. I play a lot of Makeda2, and I prefer Nihilators most of the time. Reach with road to war is great, the natural mat 7 means you can keep the feat in your pocket to scare your opponent's caster away with the threat of an Archidon or Molik Karn to the face. Depending on how I'm feeling, I either run double Nihilators or a heavier beast loadout with a single unit.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:00
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I'm looking to get into Hordes after being away from WMH for a year by starting with gators and maybe expanding into Circle. How does this list look based off of models I can get second hand from some local players? Suggestions on models to add? System: Hordes Faction: Blindwater Congregation Casters: 1/1 Points: 25/25 Calaban, the Gravewalker (*6pts) * Bone Swarm (4pts) * Bone Swarm (4pts) * Bull Snapper (3pts) * Swamp Horror (8pts) Gatormen Posse (Leader and 4 Grunts) (9pts) Gatorman Witch Doctor (3pts)
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Jan 29, 2014 03:10
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Guys. Guys. It's really loving annoying for Cygnar players that a whole shitload of our infantry models are, in effect, unusable garbage. No amount of reasoning is going to change that, and the faction is worse off for it.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:38
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S.J. posted:Guys. I'd empty quote this if this was GBS.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:41
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I would be really curious to see how it would affect the meta if they drastically changed Merc access within warmachine and Hordes. Something along the lines of all infantry units being merc only with only solos being something you can hire outside the merc faction. I also understand what S.J. is getting at it is very much like the warmachine player who gets into warmachine thinking great I will play all these giant stompy robots then finding out the game doesn't work that way (some factions more than others). It would be really disappointing if you chose a faction based on a perceived aesthetic only to find out all the models you will need to use are from a different faction, when all you want to do is play all these lightning dudes who shoot lightning. Hoboskins fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 03:49
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Hoboskins posted:I would be really curious to see how it would affect the meta if they drastically changed Merc access within warmachine and Hordes. Something along the lines of all infantry units being merc only with only solos being something you can hire outside the merc faction. They could just limit the percentage of your points that can be spent on allies to force cygnar player to be choosier, but then there would probably be even less variation.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:59
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It's not like the competitive lists that Cygnar can bring are wildly OP compared to what any of the other factions can bring. Having Cygnar melee infantry be not garbage would really help change the variety of competitive Cygnar lists. Cygnar's access to mercs isn't, honestly, all that much different than Khador's access to mercs. Cygnar's access to mercs doesn't make the faction BS, it barely brings the faction up onto the same level that the other factions were already at anyways. Having stormblades not suck isn't going to tip that into OP territory by any stretch of the imagination. S.J. fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 04:00
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Taking ten seconds from Cygnar doomsayin' to do a little Cygnar fanboying:  (From Matt Wilson's Twitter)
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Jan 29, 2014 04:03
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Pyrolocutus posted:Taking ten seconds from Cygnar doomsayin' to do a little Cygnar fanboying: I AM SO GAY FOR CYGNAR IT ISN'T EVEN FUNNY
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Jan 29, 2014 04:04
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