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Grand Fromage posted:Some comedy after your child sacrifice reading. I like how they don't know enough Latin to keep their conjugations consistent throughout the web page. They switch from "Byzantium Nova" to "Byzantium Novum" almost every other line, and completely at random, too.
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Jan 28, 2014 03:52
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Noctis Horrendae posted:I like how they don't know enough Latin to keep their conjugations consistent throughout the web page. They switch from "Byzantium Nova" to "Byzantium Novum" almost every other line, and completely at random, too. Captain Postal posted:You mean the senate didn't consist of the populares, the optimates and the pulchellus terminos factions? pulchri termini. Though it should really be made into a noun and then you have to try to show that you're making the "Pretty Border"ers rather than the "Pretty" "Borderers". Um. Sleep of Bronze fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Jan 28, 2014 |
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Jan 28, 2014 04:34
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Pretty Borderer sounds rather endearing.
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Jan 28, 2014 04:45
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Mustang posted:Anyone know anything about how Roman names changed over time? They seem to get longer and longer in the Imperial era. When did names stop being Roman and start to be visibly Italian, Spanish, etc? I guess (and that's all it is) when people stopped speaking "real" Latin and instead speaking the Romanic languages that developed out of it. So, mostly gradually with Latin names being "slurred" into the new language (Marcus -> Marco; Julius -> Julio/Giulio). Additionally you of course have all the Germanic peoples continuing to use their Germanic names (and I bet you had several "traditional names" fashion fads over the centuries) and/or mixing it with Roman names. Then the tradition to name children after saints. The long names (which are basically an ancestry gallery) didn't necessarily all disappear - there are plenty of people with half a dozen names even today, but when noble families were wiped out/became poor often the unwieldy names disappeared with them. A cobbler in Frankish Gaul might seem a bit funny when he calls himself Julius Nespos Gaius Augustulus Alpinus Crispus Fenner.
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Jan 28, 2014 07:48
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Decius posted:I guess (and that's all it is) when people stopped speaking "real" Latin and instead speaking the Romanic languages that developed out of it. It's important to note that this was already happening when Virgil and Cicero were enshrining Classical Latin for all time -- we can sort of "track" some of the differences between Classical Latin and what people on the street were saying, from both grammarians and the occasional author (Plautus, Terence, Petronius) who sought to capture present-day Latin.
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Jan 28, 2014 23:20
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homullus posted:It's important to note that this was already happening when Virgil and Cicero were enshrining Classical Latin for all time -- we can sort of "track" some of the differences between Classical Latin and what people on the street were saying, from both grammarians and the occasional author (Plautus, Terence, Petronius) who sought to capture present-day Latin. One funny thing is how Classical Latin's artificiality shows in some forms that appear in Old Latin, were absent in Classical Latin, but appear in modern Romance languages, showing that they've been in constant use for aeons, but weren't and aren't part of "real Latin" as it's thought of by classicists and such.
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Jan 28, 2014 23:28
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Grand Fromage posted:Some comedy after your child sacrifice reading. Haha look at these chumps who call themselves Byzantines.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:35
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homullus posted:It's important to note that this was already happening when Virgil and Cicero were enshrining Classical Latin for all time -- we can sort of "track" some of the differences between Classical Latin and what people on the street were saying, from both grammarians and the occasional author (Plautus, Terence, Petronius) who sought to capture present-day Latin. Yeah, wasn't the difference already appearing long before the fall of the West? In the sense You'd have classical (official, type reports up in) latin, vulgate (lingua franca latin) and then proto-romance day to day depending where you were latin? edit: Phobophilia posted:Haha look at these chumps who call themselves Byzantines. I swear I remember reading something once (circa first crusade?) of the 'Franks' being at Constantinople and the emperor being all "I am the emperor of Rome" and one of the Franks being "oh, you mean the people who killed Christ?  " but I can't remember if that actually happened.
Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 03:55
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Phobophilia posted:Haha look at these chumps who call themselves Byzantines. The part of that which most makes me laugh/roll my eyes is their flag. It purports to have "BYZANTIUM NOVUM" on their flag in the "Greek alphabet" but almost all of the Greek letters they use on the pictured flag are hilariously incorrect. All hail glorious Greek successor state BPSZLPTFnM PTHnnM.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:56
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Yep. Languages diverged a lot more easily before mass communication. And think of the timescale of centuries, and the local languages that wouldn't have just disappeared, they would've mixed with Latin to some extent. China is probably a decent modern example to look at. There is the official language, which everyone is supposed to know and comes from the capitol area. Then there's the day to day reality where people are speaking a wide range of languages, related but often so distantly they're distinct. Latin in Gaul and Latin in Cyrenaica might not be as different as say, Cantonese and Shanghainese, but there's some parallel.
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Jan 29, 2014 04:01
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Tao Jones posted:The part of that which most makes me laugh/roll my eyes is their flag. It purports to have "BYZANTIUM NOVUM" on their flag in the "Greek alphabet" but almost all of the Greek letters they use on the pictured flag are hilariously incorrect. It's My Big Fat Grssk Wedding all over again.
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Jan 29, 2014 04:13
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Ha! I learned all the Greek I know through my math classes and the occasional etymology and even I could spell it better than that.
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Jan 29, 2014 04:52
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Berke Negri posted:Yeah, wasn't the difference already appearing long before the fall of the West? In the sense You'd have classical (official, type reports up in) latin, vulgate (lingua franca latin) and then proto-romance day to day depending where you were latin? Beyond that, even -- the difference was (as Ras Het also said) pretty much ALWAYS there. Cicero's legacy in rhetoric and Virgil's legacy in hexameter is almost mind-boggling, as later authors so idolized them for centuries. "When did Latin become Italian?" is the linguistic question akin to "when did the Roman Empire fall?", and obviously they're related questions. They're both Ships of Theseus, and unlike a real ship that isn't really a ship if it is missing, say, a bottom, it's harder to be definitive about what constitutes "Latin" or "Italian" or "Roman Empire" or "Not Roman Empire" . . . and in both cases, people carried on certain traditions and practices formally for long after they ceased to have their original significance. There's still a Pontifex Maximus to this day (for an extreme example), but his role is different. Linguistically, you would likewise have bastions of tradition (in certain people, processes, and institutions) amid a sea of slow change. People started using a definite article (the subsequent words for "the", which Latin lacked) long before everyone stopped not using one, you know? Language-specific elisions in pronunciation (skipping syllables, silent letters) that later became French-sounding or Spanish-sounding or whatever were common on the street long before they were preserved in spelling or used in official stuff.
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Jan 29, 2014 04:56
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I learned all the Greek I know through Total War video games and I can spell it better than that. He's not going to be anything close to New Byzantine until he learns how to spell...  e: I have an awful habit of not quoting people and getting ninja'd. ^^
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Jan 29, 2014 04:57
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Tao Jones posted:The part of that which most makes me laugh/roll my eyes is their flag. It purports to have "BYZANTIUM NOVUM" on their flag in the "Greek alphabet" but almost all of the Greek letters they use on the pictured flag are hilariously incorrect. You would think that, after Sacha Baron Cohen's film Vordt, people would know not to do this. e:f,b, many times over.
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Jan 29, 2014 05:00
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Real talk time: isn't Greece the successor state of the Byzantine Empire?
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Jan 29, 2014 16:04
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Depends entirely what you mean by successor. If you mean the titles, they were sold to Spain by the loser last emperor (son of the one who died at the fall of Constantinople) and then I don't know where they would have gone after that. If you mean culturally, there's a huge range of people who can claim that. If you mean direct imperial lineage, there are apparently descendents of one of the cadet lines of the imperial family in southern Italy. I would say Greece and Turkey could both reasonably claim to be successor states. Which would piss off Greeks, I suppose.
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Jan 29, 2014 16:12
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Arglebargle III posted:Real talk time: isn't Greece the successor state of the Byzantine Empire? Few people in Greece care about that any longer, as I understand it, but there was a strong irredentist trend in the politics of the Kingdom of Greece up until the Treaty of Lausanne with Turkey in 1922. Greek politicians argued that places in Turkey with significant Greek populations were historically Greek and so they rightfully belonged to the Greek kingdom. They fought a war to that effect in 1919-22. Greece lost, and the settlement for that war included a significant population exchange between the two countries which settled the question.
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Jan 29, 2014 18:40
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Berke Negri posted:
the crusaders spent most of their time making GBS threads themselves at how beautiful Constantinople was according to everything I've ever seen, but then again that's pretty much what everyone did. Also a Frank would have blamed the Jews.
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Jan 29, 2014 18:48
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Tao Jones posted:Few people in Greece care about that any longer, as I understand it, but there was a strong irredentist trend in the politics of the Kingdom of Greece up until the Treaty of Lausanne with Turkey in 1922. Greek politicians argued that places in Turkey with significant Greek populations were historically Greek and so they rightfully belonged to the Greek kingdom. They fought a war to that effect in 1919-22. Greece lost, and the settlement for that war included a significant population exchange between the two countries which settled the question. This was the Megali Idea. It's not entirely dead, as you still occasionally hear ultra-fascists like Golden Dawn talk about the reconquest of Constantinople, but the Ionian (Anatolian) Greeks don't really feature in the Idea so much now (e: due to the population exchange mentioned).
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Jan 29, 2014 20:05
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Are there any (recovered) records of the population of Greece compared to the Diadochi states?
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Jan 29, 2014 20:16
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Grand Fromage posted:Depends entirely what you mean by successor. If you mean the titles, they were sold to Spain by the loser last emperor (son of the one who died at the fall of Constantinople) and then I don't know where they would have gone after that. If you mean culturally, there's a huge range of people who can claim that. If you mean direct imperial lineage, there are apparently descendents of one of the cadet lines of the imperial family in southern Italy. Forgive me for nitpicking, but Constantine XI Palaiologos, the final Roman emperor, died without issue. The title was sold to the crown of Spain by Andreas Palaiologos, who was Constantine's nephew and the final Palaiologos claimant.
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Jan 29, 2014 21:17
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Grand Fromage posted:Depends entirely what you mean by successor. If you mean the titles, they were sold to Spain by the loser last emperor (son of the one who died at the fall of Constantinople) and then I don't know where they would have gone after that. If you mean culturally, there's a huge range of people who can claim that. If you mean direct imperial lineage, there are apparently descendents of one of the cadet lines of the imperial family in southern Italy. What about Macedonia? Have they been influenced too much by the other Balkans nations to be considered a Greek successor state, or do we just not mention Macedonia because it's the poorest European state and unworthy of being called Greek?
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Jan 29, 2014 21:41
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Noctis Horrendae posted:What about Macedonia? Have they been influenced too much by the other Balkans nations to be considered a Greek successor state, or do we just not mention Macedonia because it's the poorest European state and unworthy of being called Greek? I was under the impression that the Macedonians there were more slavic in nature and not really that related to ~*anchunt glorious history of Alexander*~
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Jan 29, 2014 22:30
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:I was under the impression that the Macedonians there were more slavic in nature and not really that related to ~*anchunt glorious history of Alexander*~ Are you using Slavic as an over encompassing term for all Central and Eastern Europeans - Balkan peninsula included - or are you implying that you thought modern Macedonia was influenced by the Slavs? I'm confused. From what I understand, modern Macedonia is heavily influenced by the Greeks and neighbouring Balkans nations, certainly not Slavs.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:42
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Are you using Slavic as an over encompassing term for all Central and Eastern Europeans - Balkan peninsula included - or are you implying that you thought modern Macedonia was influenced by the Slavs? I'm confused. From what I understand, modern Macedonia is heavily influenced by the Greeks and neighbouring Balkans nations, certainly not Slavs. What are you talking about? Macedonian is a Slavic language, closely related to Bulgarian. You're using some strange definition of "Slav". Now, whether that means that Macedonians have no right to the cultural heritage of the area is an awful Greek nationalist topic of discussion that's hardly worth addressing.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:46
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The modern country Macedonia isn't called Greek because it isn't in any way Greek. They speak a Slavic language that Bulgarians consider to be a dialect of Bulgarian. Prior to the 20th century the Slavs in Macedonia considered themselves Bulgarian but they started identifying as Macedonian because they reside in part of the ancient region of Macedonia. The core regions of the Kingdom of Macedonia from antiquity are still within Greece though and the Greeks from that area refer to themselves as Macedonian. And I would say with a great deal more legitimacy and continuity than the modern country Macedonia. Slavs weren't in the area until nearly a thousand years after Alexander.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:49
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Ras Het posted:What are you talking about? Macedonian is a Slavic language, closely related to Bulgarian. You're using some strange definition of "Slav". Isn't Macedonian heavily influenced by Romanian and Greek?  I thought they were the least Slavic influenced culturally out of all the Balkan nations.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:52
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Yeah, modern Macedonia is as much a creation of the Soviet's expansion of Yugoslavia than anything else. Edit: a quick glance at wikipedia confirms the area, while part of the ancient Macedonian empire at one time, had been controlled by the kingdoms of Bulgaria and Serbia more than ancient Macedon.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:53
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Isn't Macedonian heavily influenced by Romanian and Greek? You really have to define what you are talking about here. Culture? Language? Religion? Cuisine? Football formations? Your terminology is bizarre and confusing.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:54
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Ras Het posted:You really have to define what you are talking about here. Culture? Language? Religion? Cuisine? Football formations? Your terminology is bizarre and confusing. Language. Sorry, I'm posting quickly and viewing like three threads at a time.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:55
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Thwomp posted:Yeah, modern Macedonia is as much a creation of the Soviet's expansion of Yugoslavia than anything else. I thought it went back to the Ottomans? Macedonians have been calling themselves Macedonians for centuries. And I'm inclined to take their side on any issue because gently caress Greek nationalism and the ancient Greeks didn't even think of ancient Macedonia as Greece anyway.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:59
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Language. Sorry, I'm posting quickly and viewing like three threads at a time. Macedonian is a South Slavic language very closely related to Bulgarian and also fairly closely to Serbo-Croatian. Of course it's Greek influenced due to the proximity of its speakers to Greeks, but all of the languages of the Balkans (including the non-Slavic Greek, Romanian and Albanian) share certain common features due to some 1500 years of extensive contact between their speakers. I'm not going to throw any guesses on which of the Slavic languages of the area is "least Slavic", since the very idea is fairly odd.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:00
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Koramei posted:I thought it went back to the Ottomans? Macedonians have been calling themselves Macedonians for centuries. Before the 20th century the Slavs in Macedonia identified as Bulgarians. It was the split between the two regions that lead to them identifying more with their region, Macedonia. The ancient Greeks may have looked down upon the Macedonians but it has been an important part of Greece more or less since Alexander. Many of the Greek revolutions against Ottoman rule started in Macedonia. Besides all the important bits of Macedonia that are related to the Macedonia of antiquity like Pella and Thessaloniki are in the Greek part. The Slavic area of Macedonia is the North westernmost region of Macedonia, a region that was originally inhabited by Paeonians and Thracians. Personally I think it's pretty weird that the modern country Macedonia claims the legacy of the Macedonia of Alexander and Phillip II when there have been and still are Greeks that call themselves Macedonians and still live in the heartland of Macedonia. It would be like Canadians moving in and taking over Alaska and calling themselves Americans. The Greeks have no monopoly on ethnic nationalism, the entire Balkans is rife with it.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:26
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Macedonian sounds like modified Serbian to a Serbian ear, and like modified Bulgarian to a Bulgarian ear. It's a language of it's own, but really similar to both.Mustang posted:Before the 20th century the Slavs in Macedonia identified as Bulgarians. It was the split between the two regions that lead to them identifying more with their region, Macedonia. This is wrong, by the way. There were a lot of people in Macedonia who didn't identify as Bulgarian. Although it's hard to figure out just how many due to the aggressive Bulgarization campaign during WWI, which included rampant destruction of personal documents and records. Any further conversation going this way would probably constitute a derail, so I won't go beyond this.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:35
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Who was objectively the best Roman emperor in terms of benefiting the plebes/the majority? Always wondered this.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:40
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Noctis Horrendae posted:Who was objectively the best Roman emperor in terms of benefiting the plebes/the majority? Always wondered this. Theodora? 
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Jan 29, 2014 23:44
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my dad posted:Theodora? Byzantine doesn't count!!! 
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Jan 29, 2014 23:47
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Antoninus Pius? Avoided large foreign wars, sought diplomatic solutions when he could have fought wars. Carefully managed public finances, while simultaneously spending his personal fortune on disaster relief and charity. He eschewed monumental triumphalist construction of colosseums, statues etc... in favour of maintaining and improving the road networks. Codified basic rights for slaves.... the list goes on. I would probably consider him to be the most disinterestedly even-handed (that I know of). Some earlier and later figures definitely pandered to the masses in an effort to gain something for themselves. Antoninus seemed to do it out of genuine humanitarian feeling. e: If I'm remembering my History of Rome correctly he also (out of his own pocket) bought grain and olive oil for Rome when a famine drove the prices up so high that nobody in the city could afford it. communism bitch fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jan 30, 2014 |
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Jan 30, 2014 00:27
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I know that by 476 the Western Empire was pretty much done for, but are there any records of the reactions to that? as in did regular people thought of it as the actual apocalypse or was it pretty much expected and there were no reactions to it since not much changed (besides Italy)?
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Jan 30, 2014 02:40
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