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the talent deficit posted:Thanks, this was the cause. Incapacitation is brutal when you're trying to overthrow your emperor I feel that's why if you are starting small, it's very important to be martial. Once you have a solid kingdom or empire it's not bad to be under 10 martial, but early on you need every last one of those troops.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:13
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Playing a Merchant Republic can be a hair-pulling affair when none of your relatives can just sire a loving son already, holy poo poo. It doesn't help that my male relatives have a tendency to randomly die in their twenties, and run off to marry chaste or lesbian women 5 years their senior, or to beg me to join some knight order. No matrilineal marriages is also a kick in the nuts, since the problem of few men just snowballs. The real bitch of it is that, if the game were going for total historical accuracy, feudal realms would be like this too. 
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Jan 29, 2014 22:16
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My current Emperor has a natural 33 Diplomacy, which means I can get it up to 41 between feasts and hunting events. +111 opinion bonus for personal diplomacy and +40 bonus for state diplomacy makes things hecka easy.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:17
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DStecks posted:Playing a Merchant Republic can be a hair-pulling affair when none of your relatives can just sire a loving son already, holy poo poo. It doesn't help that my male relatives have a tendency to randomly die in their twenties, and run off to marry chaste or lesbian women 5 years their senior, or to beg me to join some knight order. No matrilineal marriages is also a kick in the nuts, since the problem of few men just snowballs. I am so thankful feudal realms aren't like that. The only male restrictions on Merchants and Muslim is rather dumb for what is an a-historical sandbox game. I mean if they are going to be like that, you'd think you'd at least have total control over your idiot relatives marriages.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:22
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Eimi posted:I am so thankful feudal realms aren't like that. The only male restrictions on Merchants and Muslim is rather dumb for what is an a-historical sandbox game. I mean if they are going to be like that, you'd think you'd at least have total control over your idiot relatives marriages. I'm almost tempted to make a mod that makes feudal realms historically patriarchal; because it alters gameplay in a way that, while frustrating, is actually kinda interesting. It makes dynasty extinction a much more immediate possibility, rather than something that can maybe happen to a minor family in bumfuck nowhere. It also makes a Henry VIII situation much more plausible, since having a male heir becomes critical to smooth succession, rather than just a penalty. It makes dynasty management much more of a mini-game than something that just happens. Of course, never for a second would I want this in the vanilla game. It would put you at the mercy of the RNG to a pretty unfair degree, and female rulers don't happen that often in vanilla anyway.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:39
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Henry VIII played out as textbook Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture, though? Unless you mean the wives thing, but I've been known to divorce wives for not bearing me sons and execute the ones I can't divorce.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:48
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CapnAndy posted:Henry VIII played out as textbook Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture, though? Unless you mean the wives thing, but I've been known to divorce wives for not bearing me sons and execute the ones I can't divorce. I meant the whole "creating the Anglican Church because he couldn't get a divorce" deal.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:02
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DStecks posted:I meant the whole "creating the Anglican Church because he couldn't get a divorce" deal.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:06
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I mean, in CK2 mechanics that would be Henry VIII creating an antipope, wouldn't it?
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Jan 29, 2014 23:10
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CapnAndy posted:Isn't that more EU's deal? Only just barely. Dallan Invictus posted:I mean, in CK2 mechanics that would be Henry VIII creating an antipope, wouldn't it? Hmmm, yeah. Pretty much. But you can't create an antipope if you've got papal investiture, and if you've already changed a crown law, you'd be stuck. Splitting from Rome (and thus becoming a heretic) could be interesting as a super-rare thing, that never comes into play unless you have to choose between that and a game-over. But then, like CapnAndy mentioned the first time, you'd need a gameplay reason to not just keep executing wives you can't divorce.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:20
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DStecks posted:I'm almost tempted to make a mod that makes feudal realms historically patriarchal; because it alters gameplay in a way that, while frustrating, is actually kinda interesting. It makes dynasty extinction a much more immediate possibility, rather than something that can maybe happen to a minor family in bumfuck nowhere. It also makes a Henry VIII situation much more plausible, since having a male heir becomes critical to smooth succession, rather than just a penalty. It makes dynasty management much more of a mini-game than something that just happens. Henry VIII didn't necessarily need a male heir, as demonstrated by the fact that both his surviving daughters held the throne of England for a time. He just feared that a female heir would invite weaker claims, more succession disputes, and be unable to hold together a realm still fresh from the massive succession war that ended up with his father on the throne. Having a male heir would make the succession more secure and harder to dispute - which is modeled in CKII by being able to press weak claims against female rulers but not adult male rulers.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:25
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I think we can all agree that Elizabeth I was a terrible CK2 player. Way to Game Over yourself, dummmy!
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Jan 29, 2014 23:28
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Main Paineframe posted:Henry VIII didn't necessarily need a male heir, as demonstrated by the fact that both his surviving daughters held the throne of England for a time. He just feared that a female heir would invite weaker claims, more succession disputes, and be unable to hold together a realm still fresh from the massive succession war that ended up with his father on the throne. Having a male heir would make the succession more secure and harder to dispute - which is modeled in CKII by being able to press weak claims against female rulers but not adult male rulers. This knowledge, combined with any biographical knowledge of him at all, cements Henry VIII as a contender for "biggest goddamn diva ever." In CK2 terms, he'd be the most frustratingly irrational neighbor to have. What the English situation makes me think is that branches should split into cadet houses much more quickly/extremely, so that KARLING isn't such a permanent phenomena.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:34
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Tulip posted:This knowledge, combined with any biographical knowledge of him at all, cements Henry VIII as a contender for "biggest goddamn diva ever." In CK2 terms, he'd be the most frustratingly irrational neighbor to have. But how would you get Habsburgs ruling half the realms in Europe?
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Jan 29, 2014 23:40
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alcaras posted:He's a vassal of a vassal of a vassal. I don't think I can grant him independence. The heir, +100, still doesn't want to come visit his ma:  He's at this temple:  Which is held by a priestess, who is vassal to the chief, who is vassal to this High Chieftess, who is the only one I even have the option to Grant Independence too, though it's grayed out:  No idea how to get him to come to my court so I can marry him off to a person of my choosing (right now I can only marry him to folks in my court). This is on Ironman, albeit with achievements disabled because I used Ruler Designer to customize my dynasty (Basque, because I wanted to try Absolute Cognatic Primogeniture).
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Jan 29, 2014 23:43
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Torrannor posted:But how would you get Habsburgs ruling half the realms in Europe? Have it tied to prestige. Maybe low prestige members of your dynasty break away and try to form their on royal name. These cadet branches could act as both allies and rivals.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:48
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Main Paineframe posted:Henry VIII didn't necessarily need a male heir, as demonstrated by the fact that both his surviving daughters held the throne of England for a time. He just feared that a female heir would invite weaker claims, more succession disputes, and be unable to hold together a realm still fresh from the massive succession war that ended up with his father on the throne. Having a male heir would make the succession more secure and harder to dispute - which is modeled in CKII by being able to press weak claims against female rulers but not adult male rulers. That's a good point, and a solid argument, but also one that highlights that Henry VIII's situation doesn't really have anything to do with the existence or lackthereof of matrilineal marriage. He wasn't working from some vague notion of "gotta keep the dynasty alive", his concern was "gotta make sure England doesn't turn into a clusterfuck after I die". I still think that turning off matrilineal marriages can make for an interesting (if painful) gameplay experience, but looking at Henry VIII for inspiration as to its effects makes no sense. Torrannor posted:But how would you get Habsburgs ruling half the realms in Europe? This would be beyond the scope of any mod, but something that could be interesting is Dynastic traits. "Never splits off cadet branches" could potentially be a dynasty trait the same way that Ambitious is a trait a character can have.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:49
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alcaras posted:No idea how to get him to come to my court so I can marry him off to a person of my choosing (right now I can only marry him to folks in my court). Stab the priest in the hope he likes the newer one less?
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Jan 29, 2014 23:49
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alcaras posted:The heir, +100, still doesn't want to come visit his ma: If you hover over the "No" it'll tell you what factors are affecting his decision.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:53
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alcaras posted:No idea how to get him to come to my court so I can marry him off to a person of my choosing (right now I can only marry him to folks in my court). Main Paineframe posted:If you hover over the "No" it'll tell you what factors are affecting his decision. Opinion of Empress Whoever +++++ Opinion of Liege Whoever --- Base Reluctance -- So yeah, stabbing his liege in the hopes he doesn't like the new one is also an option; I don't think sending your Chancellor in to sow dissent would work just because it's so loving low-level, they don't generally target that.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:55
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JGBeagle posted:Have it tied to prestige. Maybe low prestige members of your dynasty break away and try to form their on royal name. These cadet branches could act as both allies and rivals. Ooh, that's good too. That would also help with dynasty clutter. You could also do something with culture, too. My dynasty in my Ironman Venice game has a pretty substantial Swedish branch, that's the kind of thing that could just split off entirely into a new dynasty.
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Jan 29, 2014 23:57
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alcaras posted:
horns.aiff DStecks posted:That's a good point, and a solid argument, but also one that highlights that Henry VIII's situation doesn't really have anything to do with the existence or lackthereof of matrilineal marriage. He wasn't working from some vague notion of "gotta keep the dynasty alive", his concern was "gotta make sure England doesn't turn into a clusterfuck after I die". My kingdoms tend to have a pretty decent chance of turning into horrifying clusterfucks on succession, hell it's the best part of the game. I think the trouble you're pointing to is that it's mostly tied to the strength of the royal desmesne and the relations between the new liege and their vassals, rather the legitimacy of the realm and competing claims on it. Failing to keep vassals down, being unwilling to temporarily drop laws, and not having a good strong retinue (i really feel like i play "the guy with the retinue" more than anything else)
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Jan 30, 2014 00:09
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Retinues are so goddamn ahistorical it hurts, though. Standing armies of professional soldiers were really not a thing that existed until, like, the nineteenth century (except for mercenaries, of course, but the whole point of them is that when the fighting was done they'd go off and find the next fight, not stand around doing nothing). We all use them because they're awesome and also we have a thousand years of accumulated knowledge that people in that time didn't have, but still.
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Jan 30, 2014 00:12
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CapnAndy posted:If you absolutely can't get him to court and the girl of your choosing won't accept an invite either, you can marry the girl to a courtier you don't mind losing, stab the courtier once she arrives, stab the bullshit wife your son will have probably gotten in the mean time, and then marry them off that way.  I've never seen "Found my Calling" before and have no idea what it means. CapnAndy posted:My current Emperor has a natural 33 Diplomacy, which means I can get it up to 41 between feasts and hunting events. A question -- how did you get to +41 Diplomacy with feasts and hunting events? What are the diplomacy boosts there? All I know about hunting is I can get diligent from it (but women can't hunt, right?)
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Jan 30, 2014 00:15
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CapnAndy posted:Retinues are so goddamn ahistorical it hurts, though. Standing armies of professional soldiers were really not a thing that existed until, like, the nineteenth century (except for mercenaries, of course, but the whole point of them is that when the fighting was done they'd go off and find the next fight, not stand around doing nothing). We all use them because they're awesome and also we have a thousand years of accumulated knowledge that people in that time didn't have, but still. They're outrageously expensive historically speaking. You can either keep 500 professional soldiers running year round or 12,000 levies for the duration of the campaign season. Both are roughly equal in cost. Pick one.
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Jan 30, 2014 00:18
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alcaras posted:
quote:A question -- how did you get to +41 Diplomacy with feasts and hunting events? What are the diplomacy boosts there? All I know about hunting is I can get diligent from it (but women can't hunt, right?)
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Jan 30, 2014 00:18
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He has no job at court, either mine or that priestess's. He's the only person in that priestess's court. He's just sitting there, doing nothing, having found his calling. .. Those are temporary feast bonuses right? How long do they last? I should do more feasts when I play Catholic :-S
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Jan 30, 2014 00:21
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alcaras posted:
I saw that with a cousin that went to join the Jomsvikings. I think it's something that happens to people that go to Holy Orders / Churches.
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Jan 30, 2014 00:27
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HenessyHero posted:They're outrageously expensive historically speaking. You can either keep 500 professional soldiers running year round or 12,000 levies for the duration of the campaign season. Both are roughly equal in cost. If rets were the best source of knights and a good way to get a real professional 'core' that you build your larger army around, it'd probably be more sensible. Honestly just making it so that retcap is tied almost exclusively to tech and is much smaller would make it function better. alcaras posted:He has no job at court, either mine or that priestess's. He's the only person in that priestess's court. He's just sitting there, doing nothing, having found his calling. Oh just kill him and get a less idiotic heir. Or live with him having a terrible wife.
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Jan 30, 2014 00:39
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Tulip posted:Oh just kill him and get a less idiotic heir. Or live with him having a terrible wife. He's kind of a good heir.  I'm curious if there's a way to bring him home, that's all. I'll try some stabbing, and worst case, will marry off some courtier to a genius woman, stab him, and marry off the woman to my son. .. Hrm, I stabbed the courier (via Plot) and the wife insta-left my court... Stabbed via Assassinate and managed to propose marriage, only to get...  Solution? Stabbed the priestess, son didn't like the new Priest as much, and came home. Finally. Thanks all for the help. What is "Found my calling" exactly anyway? alcaras fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Jan 30, 2014 |
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Jan 30, 2014 00:44
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Something about seeing a little Papal flag over a trade post makes me a little proud.
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Jan 30, 2014 00:56
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Weird bug of the day: converting away from Norse doesn't cancel your prepared invasion. +5% moral authority for the Catholics for Jylland successfully taking the last remnants of Scotland 
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Jan 30, 2014 01:09
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What's everyone's opinion on the order to upgrade trade post? I've read that it's best to put all your trade posts in one zone at the time for the bonuses (BONII), but I'm not sure if it's better to go for trade value first before trade income. Just trying to min/max while I'm Doge before the AI takes over and screw everything.
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Jan 30, 2014 01:14
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Jan 30, 2014 03:13
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Tulip posted:If rets were the best source of knights and a good way to get a real professional 'core' that you build your larger army around, it'd probably be more sensible. Honestly just making it so that retcap is tied almost exclusively to tech and is much smaller would make it function better. Maybe retinues for Western Europeans ought to be replaced with an 'established knighthood' that functions a bit like a vassalized holy order/mercenary crew. If you have a free castle/barony there's a decision to establish your kingdom's own knightly order there and select a courtier as its hereditary grandmaster. You donate the barony entirely, they pay no taxes regardless of realm laws though you're nominally their liege. Now the player can hire this established knighly order for free and it'll consist of a mid-sized core of high quality troops/heavy cavalry, the actual number of troops will depend on how many baronies have been donated and how developed those holdings are. Maybe give the player the option to adjust troop composition with sliders. If the player chooses to donate a considerable number of baronies to their kingdom's order they will get a large private army essentially but at the expense of reducing their own holdings and thus lost taxes. If the knightly order ever rebels the player will be stuck with its own diminished realm levies to beat them off, thereby encouraging players to keep their own holdings healthy and not completely lean on the knightly order. I think that would somewhat simulate the european system of giving an individual knight some land in the hopes its income will keep him armed as a knight and thus able to fight whenver called on. HenessyHero fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jan 30, 2014 |
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Jan 30, 2014 04:02
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I always knew you were a terrible person.
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Jan 30, 2014 04:14
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So, uh, I've got a Ironman game where I'm Fylkir of Scandiniavia at about 980AD. Got almost all de jure territory, my rulers are awesome, life is good. I started as Sjaellend -> Denmark, conquered Svipjod before Sweden formed, then Finland. I married the ruler of Norway so our son would inherit both Kingdoms, and so he did. baller. Mom-Queen of Norway lived to be gently caress old so I kicked around as King of Denmark for a while waiting for her to die when holy poo poo the Pope called a Crusade on me for my holdings in East Francia! No sweat, I've got 12k retinue (points, about 6k soldiers) worth of heavy infantry plus the Jomsvikings plus my levies, ~24k in total. loving Knights of Calatrava broke the poo poo out of my army in the field, lost about 80% of my poo poo in one battle. They were broken too, though, so I had a bit of breathing room to frantically gather up whatever remaining levies/retinue I had (the Jomsvikings were literally down to <200 soldiers). If all the Karlings had joined at once I would have been toast, but the holy orders all came one at a time. East Francia and Lotharingia eventually joined, but W Francia (which is the real power) hasn't so I was able to defeat them piecemeal, baiting them across the Elbe. I was down to -85% warscore at one point, but I eventually get a white peace and everythings awesome and I'm pretty loving badass. Literally the next month I'm fighting a pissant Frisian revolt and my Fylkir gets hit in the head, bam incapable. My son is 1 year old, and my brother (king of Norway) just got killed in a duel. Did I mention that I forgot to make Denmark the primary title before forming the empire so it defaulted to gavelkind? Fylkir dies, my 2 year old son inherits. My cousin the 10 year old King of Norway would have been my new heir except for the old Fylkir's concubine gives birth to my sister after he dies, so now I get all sorts of opinion hits. He did, however, inherit my Duchy of Gelre because the Empire was on gavelkind. Oh, also I lost the election for the Kingdom of Denmark (needed one more lifetime for High CA) so I lost the Duchy of Sjaellend as well. Now I'm a 2 year old Fylkir with only the county of Kölln. And the new King of Denmark formed a faction to install my cousin as Fylkir. With 118% faction power. So, since I have strong claims on the good counties in Denmark, should I just revoke all his poo poo and take the relation hit with the Fucker King of Denmark? My cousin the Fucker King of Norway is a member of the faction so I'm gonna try to plant councillors on him and maybe get him to leave, but if the war starts I think I'm probably a goner. he;lp ??? This is pretty much the first game I've played past a generation or three, especially the first ironman so I guess I didn't really realize how when poo poo goes, it goes really hard really fast. It's all very 
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Jan 30, 2014 04:16
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HenessyHero posted:Maybe retinues for Western Europeans ought to be replaced with an 'established knighthood' that functions a bit like a vassalized holy order/mercenary crew. If you have a free castle/barony there's a decision to establish your kingdom's own knightly order there and select a courtier as its hereditary grandmaster. You donate the barony entirely, they pay no taxes regardless of realm laws though you're nominally their liege. Now the player can hire this established knighly order for free and it'll consist of a mid-sized core of high quality troops/heavy cavalry, the actual number of troops will depend on how many baronies have been donated and how developed those holdings are. Maybe give the player the option to adjust troop composition with sliders. This sounds pretty awesome to me.
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Jan 30, 2014 05:15
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HenessyHero posted:They're outrageously expensive historically speaking. You can either keep 500 professional soldiers running year round or 12,000 levies for the duration of the campaign season. Both are roughly equal in cost. But right now I have 20,000 professional soldiers hanging around my capital. For free. It cost me a ton of cash to gear them up and train 'em, sure, but now I've got them and I can just keep the army around and in case poo poo happens, they're all ready to go. If poo poo really goes down I will call up more troops from the civilian population, but I normally don't have to. Also it is 1253 not 2013 but it sure doesn't sound like it, does it.
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Jan 30, 2014 05:22
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majestic12 posted:So, uh,  Jesus. That's not as bad as losing a Patrician election and basically having a game-over but it's really close.Normally I'd recommend asking the Pope to excommunicate the claimant so everyone hates him and you can imprison him for free but a) you're Norse and b) you're 2 so you wouldn't have enough piety anyway. Don't try killing the guy as you'll probably just end up incurring tyranny and the kinslayer penalty. Your best bet is to probably try and throw the guy in jail. People can't press claims or join factions while they're behind bars. After he's in jail, wait till you're an adult and everyone loves you and take back all the stuff you lost. Indefinite jailing is probably the best way to deal with problem vassals during a succession crisis. You'll take a -40 hit to your vassals so you might need to throw a lot of people in jail. Have your marshal show up and suppress revolts wherever this claimant is to boost the arrest chance. If all the claimants are in jail then you should be okay, you're only issue would be tyranny revolts or independence revolts. Independence revolts are annoying as hell because the faction will tend to demand independence at only 30% or so. If he ends up claiming your emperor title you might just let him have it. Build yourself back up and snatch it back. Your only issue then would be being a single province count in an empire where the emperor has a claim on your county. That's a quick way to game over. Good luck. This is where the real CK2 begins 
axeil fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Jan 30, 2014 |
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Jan 30, 2014 05:30
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