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Agartha was kind of like a yo-yo*, would get beaten back to just his forts, then reemerge with a gigantic pile of summons and mindblasters out of nowhere. 1% was really able to bankroll their frontline nations with Bery's ridiculous income multiplier. Also, Rephaite warriors kicked absolutely stupid amounts of rear end - particularly when Hinnom finally started to use them in combined arms. Marverni was getting rolled before I even joined. *Also, Agartha is totally suited for a megabless if someone else is paying for it. Edit: Also, I played Helheim and totally kicked Vanheim's rear end across the map. Get it strait 
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Jan 29, 2014 06:43
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We have notes that are very less detailed than that teams, because we mostly talked on irc. Fun Fact: underwater Alteration sites are terrible because half the big alteration globals can only be cast on land.
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Jan 29, 2014 06:45
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Speleothing posted:Agartha was kind of like a yo-yo*, would get beaten back to just his forts, then reemerge with a gigantic pile of summons and mindblasters out of nowhere. 1% was really able to bankroll their frontline nations with Bery's ridiculous income multiplier. Also, Rephaite warriors kicked absolutely stupid amounts of rear end - particularly when Hinnom finally started to use them in combined arms. Poor Marveni had it rough really, it was literally the perfect terrain for fomoria to work in with that peninsula, thanks to sailing and my dragon i was able to weave and dodge around the coast non stop never touching him while slowly building up. I imagine at any point i could have wiped out his army with relatively few losses but i was more interested in being as gold and gem efficient as possible so i could continue to feed gems and gold to TNN and Niefel who needed it more than me. One thing i will criticise however was Marvenis insistence on using their basic troops compared to their berserkers which would have given pause to me.
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Jan 29, 2014 08:19
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TheresNoThyme posted:Wanted to second that it was really fun reading your team's game notes, so thanks for posting them. I think if any other teams have postgame analysis it would be interesting to read as well. Well, as we pointed out in nation picking we got really lucky as there were two teams using different (dare I say non-standard?) strategies: the scales team and the pretender-bless team. They both picked nations based on scales compatibility and pretender chassis availability respectively, so we had free reign of our nation picks, although we would have liked to have Hinnom. For nation picking, since every nation has dragon access my basic strategy was to pick something that's compatible with a dragon bless. N9 for 10% regen on the dragon SCs is huge, so I short-listed nations that could use the N9 bless: giants and giant-likes first, other strong sacreds, and mistform thugs were all short-listed. Mictlan wasn't on the short list but is so strong a nation we thought there was no way it would fall to us after the giants were picked, grabbing it at that point was a steal. Another strong part of our pick strategy was the desire for a temperature-slant, that is to say we wanted mostly heat or mostly cold nations and the pretender nation to have the opposite preference. Then you design the pretender with +120 points on their scales by picking scales opposite to the pretender's preference. I looked at the map and determined that cold nations would have a massive mobility advantage on the map, so nations with cold preference or cold resistance on troops were a high priority, but Niefel is kind of the linchpin of such a strategy. If someone else had picked Niefel before us, we would have gone for Hinnom and a heat-preference team. Our ideal cold-pref picks probably included Niefel, Caelum, Van/Hel, Ulm, TC, Atlantis. It also meant that we absolutely could not end up with Agartha or C'tis. We wanted Berytos as our pretender, as they're heat pref and have income bonus, but Berytos was picked early and so we left pretender choice to "whatever's left" later with the option of going for a Mictlan pretender. Overall we didn't quite get our cold strategy nations, because we power-drafted Mictlan and because other teams picked Caelum and Ulm early when we thought they'd be available late, but setting up the Lanka pretender with cold dominion served us relatively well mobility-wise. As others said the almost-sneak attack from team 1% initially gave us trouble, and Agartha was being fed ludicrous amounts of gold and gems all of which went into units that stacked with HIS e9n9 bless, so he was quite effective as a bless nation especially since his team had a +3 def and a +3 att throne. Our bless served us extremely well, and a high-hp SC strategy with N9 goes highly recommended in the future. I was not impressed by Lanka at all, as everyone in a disciple game will have Order 3 everywhere and my blood summon game was thwarted because all the blood summons are also chaos power. Nevertheless I was able to contribute raiders and gold and blood slaves, but I feel I would have been better served with another pony nation like Vanheim (which I think we could have picked). That would have meant a Mictlan pretender though, so our team strategy may have ended up slightly different. At no point was our war with 1% easy, because we could only bring 4 nations into the fight while our other 3 choked out Marverni/Ermor/Yomi down south. Poor TNN had to smash his way out of army after army as Sauro and Hinnom sent their best after him, which he did admirably, but every time I was holding my breath. After they had been beaten back the final time (and after we were making progress on Agartha), armies from across the map appeared and TNN had to take on Arco and Berytos. The game was unfortunately paused to death then, but we had choked out Vanheim down to his cap and squashed his raider groups finally. But suffice to say that on the TNN/Niefel front with team 1% there was tension and big armies fighting pretty much every turn. Much like TNN, Niefel had to batter away Agartha/Hinnom/Sauro armies, but his front was a lot more static and his cap wasn't threatened directly. There it was more a battle of force preservation, since you can't recruit Niefel Giants quickly. TheDemon fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 09:13
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The economics of a game like that throw things out of whack very quickly too even if we didnt have the 75% site occurence rate, for example if you look in the team document i put out a call for death gems as fomoria and im given One Hundred of them in a single turn which i then used to start pumping out barghest to eat Marveni because Barghest were actually fantastic units to go with our bless and if the game had continued yomi would have had to content with Barghest under darkness with Darkpower Three. The ability for one team member to shoot up various schools of research to complement one another helps a lot too, in that you see our team go for both Mother Oak and Gift of Health while i raced up construction for winged shoes, fear helmets and amulet of the fish on top of conjuration for my own summons and then alteration to both buff my own armies to blender levels of pixelman destroying as well as potentially give me some buffs if i wanted to gear out a Fomorian king if they got heroic endurance or some such. e: Here are some screenshots i took in game so people can get a sense of scale.  The in game map at around turn 26 i think?  You get a LOT of messages from your own scouting reports as well as your allies battles, this was early into the attack by the 1% on us, there's about another page and a half of messages of battles too that i cant get in one screenshot.  A Close up of the map where i was fighting Yomi and Marveni, as you can see the terrain is fantastic for armies lead by sailing fomorian kings, they gave me the ability to get large amounts of units from my capital into marveni for both defensive movement traps and reinforcements very easily while the water kept him at bay. Sailing 2 was what allowed me to perform so well down here because i could be more or less anywhere and easily retreat out of bad situations.  Why im the best at naming things. LordLeckie fucked around with this message at 10:30 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 10:15
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Just to note, there was a bug (fixed with the new patch I'm told, which we never got a turn on) where excess messages disabled scouting reports on allied units. So that's why you don't see any non-Fomoria team armies in those screens.
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Jan 29, 2014 12:11
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people posted:Tons of info about a cool game I'll look forward to reading these posts when I get back from work today. Also, re-reading my original post I didn't mean to imply that nations like Agartha were non-factors or anything: it's obvious from the team notes that the game was close and it took a ton of coordination to effectively handle a bunch of threats. Mostly I was just curious to hear more about the game dynamics. Also dear god that turn 26 message log....
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Jan 29, 2014 15:35
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Actually, IIRC the 1%'s bless was n9ex - they definitely weren't getting the +5prot, and may have only had +3 instead of +4 reinvig. But that's not important - the real killer difference was that we got a bunch of +resist thrones and they got +3att & +3def. Though having 10PR really took the teeth out of androphage archers. We also got extremely lucky in killing Hinnom's and Vanheim's dragons. Hinnom made a bad random attack onto a stack of over 100 jaguars with support mages, and Vanheim routed from my capital with no retreat about 1 turns before he would have finished off the PD and had me under siege.
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Jan 29, 2014 16:22
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Well, you can call those unlucky moves, but like I advised us even before the war began if you send a pretender SC out of your own dominion you're asking for big trouble against any kind of serious opposition. Those were both solo raids with dragon SCs in enemy dominion; the cap raid in particular meant that the max hitpoints were below the actual hitpoints, so to cause that dragon a "wound" which causes a morale check is a hit for a small amount of hitpoints, since it's proportional to max hp.
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Jan 29, 2014 16:52
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TheresNoThyme posted:Also dear god that turn 26 message log.... Basically every turn looked like that after the war started  Also, it should be noted that Agartha was actually extremely dangerous even though builds didn't get access to non-lovely Agartha until the patch hit halfway through the game. Their big dumb giants hit really hard with magic weapons if you can get the bless/thrones needed to allow them to do so reliably.
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Jan 29, 2014 18:28
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Yeah, Agartha's sacreds are suddenly much less lovely when they have actual attack and defense scores. There were several times were I was fearing for my Niefel Giants because of the boosted attack and defense. That and recruiting lots of Niefels with sloth 2 just wasn't going to happen no matter how much gold I had available.
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Jan 29, 2014 18:34
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LordLeckie posted:One thing i will criticise however was Marvenis insistence on using their basic troops compared to their berserkers which would have given pause to me. I won't say that I played very well in that game, because I clearly didn't, even given your early-game and map-related superiority. I more or less joined the last available team by default because I wanted to play in the big game, so I ended up with a nation and strategy that I'm really quite mediocre with (even moreso than I am in general, I mean). Also, I don't think it's wrong to say that Team Scales probably had the worst "gimmick" by far of any team in the game, mostly because a bless (which basically all three of the other teams ended up taking in one form or another?) is such an insane amount of value in a disciples game.
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Jan 29, 2014 21:26
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Speleothing posted:If people aren't reading the MadPantheon retrospective that was posted in the PGS thread, they should. too slow 
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Jan 30, 2014 01:09
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JerryLee posted:I won't say that I played very well in that game, because I clearly didn't, even given your early-game and map-related superiority. I more or less joined the last available team by default because I wanted to play in the big game, so I ended up with a nation and strategy that I'm really quite mediocre with (even moreso than I am in general, I mean). Also, I don't think it's wrong to say that Team Scales probably had the worst "gimmick" by far of any team in the game, mostly because a bless (which basically all three of the other teams ended up taking in one form or another?) is such an insane amount of value in a disciples game. Yeah that sucks and this game showed that you could do quite well with just order 3, i mean i note in the document that your teams scales are actually great for me because growth 3 meant that my army of Barghest i had just shipped in went from starving to death to perfectly fed instantly. Not to mention i got lucky and that group of sages next to my capital were in enemy dominion with magic 1 instead of my teams drain scales.
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Jan 30, 2014 05:51
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What do you all feel is preferable, clustered start or everyome disbursed?
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Jan 30, 2014 18:51
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Fomoria is probably my favourite Dom3 nation, haven't had the opportunity to play them in Dom4 yet. I think it's the opportunity to deal instant terrible death that appeals to me And barghest are fantastic units period. Just avoid long drawn out slugging matches
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Jan 30, 2014 19:38
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2014-01-29 12:07:44 +0100  Improved victory screenhttp://jaffa.illwinter.com/dom4/dom4log.html
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Jan 30, 2014 21:00
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Donkringel posted:What do you all feel is preferable, clustered start or everyome disbursed? I prefer clustered starts, though they break down diplomacy by turning each team into a superbloc. A dispersed start leaves too much to chance, losing one teammate early because he happened to be between two members of a different team is a huge disadvantage. If you don't want to cluster, use fixed starts so that everyone is equally screwed and you still need to team up with untrustworthy strangers to take down individual enemies.
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Jan 30, 2014 21:01
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amuayse posted:2014-01-29 12:07:44 +0100 This game has a victory screen? Well drat. Better complete an abandoned game!
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Jan 30, 2014 22:22
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Why did my Pretender suddenly develop diseases? He wasn't in any fights and isn't old. He just entered a province and is suddenly diseased and suffering a chest wound?
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Jan 30, 2014 23:26
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Why did my Pretender suddenly develop diseases? He wasn't in any fights and isn't old. He just entered a province and is suddenly diseased and suffering a chest wound?
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Jan 30, 2014 23:32
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Why did my Pretender suddenly develop diseases? He wasn't in any fights and isn't old. He just entered a province and is suddenly diseased and suffering a chest wound? Could be MA C'Tis' Miasma. E: Actually a site is more likely yeah.
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Jan 31, 2014 00:14
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Well drat. Is there any way for me to get rid of the site or do I now have to race to gift of health?
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Jan 31, 2014 00:16
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Excelsiortothemax posted:Well drat. Is there any way for me to get rid of the site or do I now have to race to gift of health? The site is permanent. Just don't leave mage stacks there. Search it for death when you can as most of those sites give D gems. Too bad about your pretender though. Unless you've got some way to clear that disease (that nature item, blood for blood feast etc) he's kinda hosed.
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Jan 31, 2014 00:18
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He's even more hosed if you move him somewhere with higher dominion (or his own domspread occurs) as that will increase his max hp and kill him faster.
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Jan 31, 2014 00:21
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Craaaaaaaap. I was being cheap and site searching with him in safety. Welp, plowing to GoH and any other anti disease items. Thanks guys, I appreciate the help.
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Jan 31, 2014 00:37
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amuayse posted:2014-01-29 12:07:44 +0100 quote:Transformation could result in a shapeshifter eagle noo
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Jan 31, 2014 01:16
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JerryLee posted:I won't say that I played very well in that game, because I clearly didn't, even given your early-game and map-related superiority. I more or less joined the last available team by default because I wanted to play in the big game, so I ended up with a nation and strategy that I'm really quite mediocre with (even moreso than I am in general, I mean). Also, I don't think it's wrong to say that Team Scales probably had the worst "gimmick" by far of any team in the game, mostly because a bless (which basically all three of the other teams ended up taking in one form or another?) is such an insane amount of value in a disciples game. True. Next time I do a mega-team game, I'll go for a slightly less extreme strat - a more balanced approach with a single bless plus good scales will work better. But that will be after I go through and finish tweaking Glory of the Gods - there's too many mountains, and there needs to be more connectivity within each team's territory. Adding province connections between "portal" provinces will go a good way to cleaning that up. Probably also going to make the eastern sea suck more in general, so the advantage of being able to raid south is mitigated somewhat. EDIT: I know that the start locations for a couple of the nations on TeamScales need to be changed a bit - did the other teams have any particular start locations that you found to be a problem? Kenlon fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 01:21
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Dominions 11 Changelog I released the alpha version of my Dominions 11 mod, you can find it in the PGS thread. This is an incomplete changelist, really just the highlights by nation: EA Arco: Made Myrmadons stronger, more elite statlines. Gave proto-xbows and proto-ballista. Made wind riders cheaper, gave wind lords priest level 1. Philosophers have inspiring researcher 1. EA Ermor: Improved morale for a lot of untis. Sacred shroud dudes got regen 10%. Foreign mages got slightly buffed. Cap site that gives 15 experience/turn to a commander and his units (that's 1 Xp star after one turn, 2 after 3 turns, and 3 after 6 turns.) Half priced labs. EA Ulm: Improved statlines. Steel warriors have death curse. Shamans start with a spirit wolf in battle. EA Marv: Recruitable sacred boars from anywhere. Improved statlines. EA Sauro: Improved statlines. Androphags have fear. Hydras have bigger fear, regen 15%. Popkill on maneater type units. Poison-resistance on the jade amazons. Innate spellcaster on warrior sorceress. EA T'ien Ch'i: 5 extra gems, one each of the 5 elements. Cheaper national summons. EA Machaka: Elephants 12 morale. Improved statlines. Lion warriors fear. EA Mictlan: Improved mapmove. Improved sun warriors and moon warriors. EA Abysia: Magma Slingers. An earth mage. Recruit anywhere warlock apprentices. National spell to remove 5 years off age for a fire gem. A bit younger. Cheaper salamanders. EA Caelum: Harabs given 50% chance at death2. Improved statlines and enc issues. Recruitable Yazad. Temple Guards given 13 in every stat. Bows fire 2 per round. EA C'tis: Improved statlines. Their sacred is now insane. Runners have a light lance. EA Pangaea: Improved a few statlines, made centaur archers less bad. Blood 1 recruitable. EA Agartha: Gave quarterstaff using units. Boulder throwers throw good boulders (aoe 1 with aoe5 secondary max1 damage effect). National e1 eagle eyes copy "sense earth" EA Tir na n'Og: Gave awe to their sacreds, which were also made more expensive. Improved statlines. Recruitable phantasmal warriors that fight 1 battle. EA Fomoria: Gave awe to their mini sacred, which were also made more expensive. Healer commander to remove afflictions. Unmarked made recruit anywhere. Biggest improved statlines of any nation. EA Vanheim: Made mages 20 gold cheaper. Some small stat improvements. EA Helheim: Made mages 20 gold cheaper. Some small stat improvements. EA Nieflheim: Gave units with shields "Shield Bash", strength damage can't be repelled, only used 50% of the time. Removed recruitlimit on skinshifters. EA Kailisa: Gave +4 gems (2 water, 2 astral), reduced cost on national summons. Lanka markata changes apply. EA Lanka: Half priced temples. Markata cause unrest. Dominion SHOULD spread turmoil to enemy lands, but that command is currently broken. Cap only two claw attack berserking markata available. Slight statline improvements. +4 blood slaves from cap. EA Yomi: Half priced temples. Dominion SHOULD spread turmoil to enemy lands, but that command is currently broken. Goblins cause unrest. Reduced some costs. Demon priests are now spies and can be recruited anywhere you have a temple. Improved chaos recruitment on Dai Oni. EA Hinnom: Great bows are now range 60 and deal 20 damage. Reduced cost on chariots a bit. EA Ur: Gave 2 prot helmets called horns. Sirrush now have fear 10. EA Berytos: Restored to 25% extra income from coasts. Otherwise unchanged. And some general changes that matter: -Size 4+ units with javelins were given giant javelins that have a max1 damage aoe secondary effect. -Some blunt weapons like clubs and maces were given a strength stun damage secondary on damage. -Hatchets have 2 attacks, axes are length 2. -Massive changes to many spells, including some new ones. Check 'em out! -Slings are range 40 -Composite bows are range 40 -Longbows are range 50 -Almost every unit with 1 claw attack was given 2 claw attacks. Emmideer fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 01:28
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I've been thinking about it, and there are 21 nations in the Late Age, so we could do 4 teams of 5 or 5 teams of 4 and leave one nation undrafted. The obvious choice would be Lemuria, but I could imagine some sort of crazy strat involving funneling D income toward summoning immortal mages.
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Jan 31, 2014 01:31
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Lprsti99 posted:Could be MA C'Tis' Miasma.
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Jan 31, 2014 01:33
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Speleothing posted:I've been thinking about it, and there are 21 nations in the Late Age, so we could do 4 teams of 5 or 5 teams of 4 and leave one nation undrafted. The obvious choice would be Lemuria, but I could imagine some sort of crazy strat involving funneling D income toward summoning immortal mages. I'm down, with the added provision that R'lyeh can't be Pretender.
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Jan 31, 2014 01:38
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dis astranagant posted:I'm down, with the added provision that R'lyeh can't be Pretender. That's for the team itself to work out.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:06
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No, it really isn't. 5 players worth of freespawn is loving bullshit.
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Jan 31, 2014 02:08
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Yeah you dont want to see the results of 4-5 people getting non stop freespawn and driving everything in their dominion insane.
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Jan 31, 2014 03:19
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LordLeckie posted:Yeah you dont want to see the results of 4-5 people getting non stop freespawn and driving everything in their dominion insane. I'm pretty sure I do.
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Jan 31, 2014 03:33
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jsoh posted:I'm pretty sure I do. This man understands how things should be.
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Jan 31, 2014 03:54
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LordLeckie posted:Yeah you dont want to see the results of 4-5 people getting non stop freespawn and driving everything in their dominion insane. One team of five and two teams of ten?
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Jan 31, 2014 06:54
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jsoh posted:I'm pretty sure I do. I concur; this sounds pretty great.
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Jan 31, 2014 08:49
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| # ? May 10, 2024 20:46 |
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Kenlon posted:True. Next time I do a mega-team game, I'll go for a slightly less extreme strat - a more balanced approach with a single bless plus good scales will work better. But that will be after I go through and finish tweaking Glory of the Gods - there's too many mountains, and there needs to be more connectivity within each team's territory. Adding province connections between "portal" provinces will go a good way to cleaning that up. Vanheim's start way up north is terrible because he has no cash ever. As a general rule, while it looks cool to have a wasteland, having 10-15 2k pop provinces is awful to play with. Make 1/2 the provinces at least start with more pop.
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Jan 31, 2014 14:13
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