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Bobbin Threadbare posted:Deus ex Machina is the Latin version of a Greek phrase meaning "God of the Machine" (or possibly "The Machine of God"). It refers to a practice in Greek theater where a play would be resolved at the end by divine intervention. The god (or gift from a god, in one case) would be lowered in from above to signify its divinity, but the crane doing the lowering was obvious to the audience, hence being a god by right of a machine. This is kind of minor, but Deus Ex Machina actually means "God from the Machine" in Latin. "Ex" means from, or away from. God of the Machine would be Deus Machinae. MegaZeroX fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Feb 1, 2014 |
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Feb 1, 2014 23:40
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Alternately, just kill yourself immediately with a rocket and save yourself the trouble. Paul will be alive as long as you don't jump out the window first.
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Feb 2, 2014 00:53
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Well, no, sorry everybody but the only proper way to handle that situation is to use your powers of nanoprecognition and strategic planting of explosives to cleanse the unbelievers. It somehow gets even better with BioMod because they give you WP grenades in that. You simply walk out and watch the piled-up corpses of those who would deny their Lord and Savior J.C. with the occasional unfortunate bastard still running around on fire. Paul usually puts them out of their misery pretty fast, though.
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Feb 2, 2014 00:59
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Cerebral Bore posted:Well, no, sorry everybody but the only proper way to handle that situation is to use your powers of nanoprecognition and strategic planting of explosives to cleanse the unbelievers. This right here. Sure it's amusing to see paul and the ai do their faux-strafing as they duke it out, but the correct answer to that problem is a gep-round to the face of your opponents.
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Feb 2, 2014 01:09
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I played Deus Ex a lot back in the day, but had no idea Paul could actually survive until I played Deus Ex 2 and much to my surprise, there he was... alive.  My memories of the sequence are vague, but there was a part (in Deus Ex 1) where you were on the way to help Paul and met what seemed to me to be such overwhelming opposition that I assumed it was just scripted that you would be 'killed' (captured) and couldn't reach Paul. The fact that you were captured rather than killed is what really made me think that, from memory. It was the first game I'd played that did something like that. Maybe things would have been different had I ever carried a GEP gun around... So I'm really looking forward to that part of the game in this LP so I can see how it's 'meant' to go.
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Feb 2, 2014 01:21
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Antistar01 posted:Maybe things would have been different had I ever carried a GEP gun around... Firing a WP rocket into the lobby is one of the killingest moments in the entire game. 
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Feb 2, 2014 01:32
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I think the first time I did that sequence I went in through the window, then killed the MIB that comes in through the front door and died in his death explosion. Still counted for saving Paul though!
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Feb 2, 2014 01:32
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gently caress me I had no idea Paul could survive, I thought his death was guaranteed regardless of what you did and I've played through the game half a dozen times. How does it affect the plot?
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Feb 2, 2014 05:54
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Slavvy posted:gently caress me I had no idea Paul could survive, I thought his death was guaranteed regardless of what you did and I've played through the game half a dozen times. How does it affect the plot? Not by a lot, actually. He disappears, for the most part, and then only pops up as a subject in conversations here and there for the rest of the game. There's one instance of him speaking to JC toward the end of the game, if he survives New York, but that's the only major conversation that I think he has after that point.
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Feb 2, 2014 06:00
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Slavvy posted:gently caress me I had no idea Paul could survive, I thought his death was guaranteed regardless of what you did and I've played through the game half a dozen times. How does it affect the plot? He shows up once in Tracer Tong's little lab area to say thanks for the help, and right before choosing the ending where he tells you "I dunno, pick what you think is best?" I think that's it? It's been awhile. Nothing significant really, just the occasional reminder that he's alive and that you're a good bro.
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Feb 2, 2014 06:01
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Penakoto posted:He shows up once in Tracer Tong's little lab area to say thanks for the help, and right before choosing the ending where he tells you "I dunno, pick what you think is best?" I always ended up saving him. Who shows up in his place during that conversation if he dies?
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Feb 2, 2014 06:44
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Penakoto posted:He shows up once in Tracer Tong's little lab area to say thanks for the help, and right before choosing the ending where he tells you "I dunno, pick what you think is best?"
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Feb 2, 2014 06:47
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Outpost22 posted:I always ended up saving him. Who shows up in his place during that conversation if he dies? Tracer Tong replaces him near the end.
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Feb 2, 2014 07:02
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Willie Tomg posted:Firing a WP rocket into the lobby is one of the killingest moments in the entire game. Are Wooly P rounds even available in the game before that point? Where?!
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Feb 2, 2014 07:05
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Penakoto posted:Tracer Tong replaces him near the end. I don't think that's right. Tong has his own appearance near the end, but if Paul doesn't survive, the hologram emitter for him doesn't let anyone through. There's one other place where you see Paul if he survives: the MJ12 bunker. If he survives the raid, he'll be alive and talking. If not, he'll be on the slab. Finding him is an objective.
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Feb 2, 2014 07:25
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Outpost22 posted:I always ended up saving him. Who shows up in his place during that conversation if he dies? I think the one who encourages you to make your own choice instead of Paul at the end is Gary Savage, if I recall correctly. Tong is the one advocating for 'throw the world into a dark age, SURELY there will be no tyranny then!' in all cases. (I pretty much think Tong's plan is painfully naïve and misguided; dark ages have a great way of encouraging savage and ruthless tyranny. Even if it's not a global conspiracy, and instead a series of local strongmen, that's still not 'freedom', and I think it's foolishness to think causing a dark age will result in freedom.)
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Feb 2, 2014 07:31
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nweismuller posted:I think the one who encourages you to make your own choice instead of Paul at the end is Gary Savage, if I recall correctly. I think you do. Tong is always Tong.
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Feb 2, 2014 07:53
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I never cared about saving Paul. Dude was useless and a wet blanket anyway. On the other hand, letting Jock die was something I refused to do again. 
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Feb 2, 2014 08:45
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So in other words you guys are saying "No; Savage."? 
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Feb 2, 2014 08:45
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Antistar01 posted:So in other words you guys are saying "No; Savage."? "UNATCO?"
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Feb 2, 2014 08:53
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nweismuller posted:"UNATCO?" Savage.
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Feb 2, 2014 08:54
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Fabulousity posted:Are Wooly P rounds even available in the game before that point? Where?! Down in the MJ12 outpost in the Hell's Kitchen sewers, IIRC.
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Feb 2, 2014 09:43
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RZApublican posted:Savage. U...UNATCO??
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Feb 2, 2014 10:21
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Slavvy posted:U...UNATCO?? Quit screwing around.
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Feb 2, 2014 10:54
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nweismuller posted:I think the one who encourages you to make your own choice instead of Paul at the end is Gary Savage, if I recall correctly. Tong is the one advocating for 'throw the world into a dark age, SURELY there will be no tyranny then!' in all cases. (I pretty much think Tong's plan is painfully naïve and misguided; dark ages have a great way of encouraging savage and ruthless tyranny. Even if it's not a global conspiracy, and instead a series of local strongmen, that's still not 'freedom', and I think it's foolishness to think causing a dark age will result in freedom.) I don't think he is naive at all. He is a high-ranking member of one of the most significant criminal organizations in the world that could stand up to MJ12 on its own. This is the only time he talks about freedom and most probably defines it the libertarian manner. Edit: Also, about Gunther - letting him go with a weapon is the only way to make him happy. When you don't give him a pistol, he gets convinced that UNATCO wants to put their newest augmented agent in the spotlight. When you talk with him, he treats you like a soon-to-be-fired employee would treat his future replacement. For maximum hilarity leave him in the cell. He won't shut up about it for the entire loving game, even when he has other grievances with JC. Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Feb 2, 2014 |
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Feb 2, 2014 13:36
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Gantolandon posted:For maximum hilarity leave him in the cell. He won't shut up about it for the entire loving game, even when he has other grievances with JC. but ... but ... but xp 
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Feb 2, 2014 15:01
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nweismuller posted:I think the one who encourages you to make your own choice instead of Paul at the end is Gary Savage, if I recall correctly. Tong is the one advocating for 'throw the world into a dark age, SURELY there will be no tyranny then!' in all cases. (I pretty much think Tong's plan is painfully naïve and misguided; dark ages have a great way of encouraging savage and ruthless tyranny. Even if it's not a global conspiracy, and instead a series of local strongmen, that's still not 'freedom', and I think it's foolishness to think causing a dark age will result in freedom.) Also Tong never shuts the hell up in Paris and has the worst voice actor. Tong sucks, in other words.
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Feb 2, 2014 16:35
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Gantolandon posted:Edit: Also, about Gunther - letting him go with a weapon is the only way to make him happy. When you don't give him a pistol, he gets convinced that UNATCO wants to put their newest augmented agent in the spotlight. When you talk with him, he treats you like a soon-to-be-fired employee would treat his future replacement. I can't remember if it was mentioned in that episode, but if you have augs in a weapon and give it away, will the next copy of that weapon have those same augs? I thought Bobbin said they do, but then that takes some pressure off of getting back your weapons when escaping the MJ12 base later. What about if you have Biomod and Shifter installed?
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Feb 2, 2014 18:33
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C-Euro posted:I can't remember if it was mentioned in that episode, but if you have augs in a weapon and give it away, will the next copy of that weapon have those same augs? I thought Bobbin said they do, but then that takes some pressure off of getting back your weapons when escaping the MJ12 base later. What about if you have Biomod and Shifter installed? I believe Bobbin corrected himself in an earlier post saying that if you give that weapon away it's gone for good, you have to start from a fresh unmodded one. Here it is: Bobbin Threadbare posted:I just double-checked my statement, and either I was incorrect all along or (and I'm going with this myself) it's a bug that got patched out and I'm still too used to the original unpatched version. The mods on any weapon you drop or give away will not return the next time you pick a copy up, so if you intend to trick out your pistol and still do Gunther a solid, then either drop the pistol and grab a random terrorist's to hand off or else wait until after meeting him to apply the mods.
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Feb 2, 2014 18:38
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The best way to deal with that is just to drop all your weapons on the ground. Gunther is happy with a combat knife.
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Feb 2, 2014 18:42
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The MJ12 base is a special case as you're explicitly getting back your weapons. You have to be a bit careful and check, but one of the pistols in the armoury will be your modded one, etc.
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Feb 2, 2014 18:53
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nweismuller posted:I think the one who encourages you to make your own choice instead of Paul at the end is Gary Savage, if I recall correctly. Tong is the one advocating for 'throw the world into a dark age, SURELY there will be no tyranny then!' in all cases. (I pretty much think Tong's plan is painfully naïve and misguided; dark ages have a great way of encouraging savage and ruthless tyranny. Even if it's not a global conspiracy, and instead a series of local strongmen, that's still not 'freedom', and I think it's foolishness to think causing a dark age will result in freedom.) Personally I've always felt that the Dark Age ending could have been handled much, much better, or at least they could have come up with much better arguments for it (not that any of the endings has very good arguments going for it). Let's instead say that Tong would claim that something like Helios was an inevitable result of technological progress, and as long as the tech exists someone will keep trying to pull off what Page did and that it's inevitable that someone succeeds sooner or later. Thus you need to nuke the internet to make this impossible. I mean, it's not a particularly good argument, but it's at least more convincing than "blow up the net because I say so".
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Feb 2, 2014 21:01
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Cerebral Bore posted:I mean, it's not a particularly good argument, but it's at least more convincing than "blow up the net because I say so". Nah trust me bro I've done this a dozen times!
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Feb 2, 2014 22:26
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Slavvy posted:Nah trust me bro I've done this a dozen times! drat IT guys.
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Feb 2, 2014 22:28
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No, guys, you don't get it. It's time for government on a scale human beings can understand! The scale where you hit a dude on the head with a rock because you want his stuff!
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Feb 2, 2014 22:35
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The compelling part of Tong's argument is that if you want to prevent unbreakable control of every aspect of life, he's the only game in town. The Helios system controls all advanced information flow. It knows and can stop every phone call, every email, every data link. Plus, they have access to nano-fabrication that basically sets up a post scarcity society, all under the control of either a small conspiracy of the ultra rich or a godlike entity. Whoever wins at the end of Deus Ex, except Tong, wins. Any attempt to organize resistance using anything more advanced than a pen and paper is revealed instantly. The powers that be now have infinite disposable shock troopers and super plagues to wipe out anyone who's up for a fight anyway. Tong's route "just" wipes out global communications, killing millions by all odds, but it's the only option that can be reversed. Ignoring his romanticism, he's leaving a world that's still a varied set of civilizations with their own futures to plot. Now, depending on your view of humanity those futures might mostly be Lord of the Flies, but it's the only option that leaves a free and democratic society even possible. Up to the individual if the (obscene) risks and costs are worth the reward, but the rewards are exclusive. Also, assuming human extinction isn't go, there's a second chance at Helios or Illuminati down the line. You pick one of the others, that's it.
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Feb 2, 2014 23:16
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Gantolandon posted:I don't think he is naive at all. He is a high-ranking member of one of the most significant criminal organizations in the world that could stand up to MJ12 on its own. This is the only time he talks about freedom and most probably defines it the libertarian manner. I absolutely fail to follow your point. So his fictitious credentials validate the logic behind any line the author puts in his mouth?
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Feb 3, 2014 00:15
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Lamia Domina posted:I absolutely fail to follow your point. So his fictitious credentials validate the logic behind any line the author puts in his mouth? I can't speak for him, but I think that Gantolandon's argument is that Tong is stringing you along because he'd have a pretty good shot at carving out his own petty empire in the chaos that follows.
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Feb 3, 2014 00:20
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Cerebral Bore posted:I can't speak for him, but I think that Gantolandon's argument is that Tong is stringing you along because he'd have a pretty good shot at carving out his own petty empire in the chaos that follows. Yeah, mostly that. Tracer Tong is a criminal, whose people regularly extort the simple merchants on the streers and sabotage their shops if they won't pay up. He helped fighting Page only before mooching as much favors from JC as possible, including supplying the Triads with a high-tech weapon. This is not a guy whom I see as a champion of freedom for the common people. chiasaur11 posted:The compelling part of Tong's argument is that if you want to prevent unbreakable control of every aspect of life, he's the only game in town. The ultimate problem with Tong's vision is that it is hilariously over the top for something that doesn't even really solve the problem. The Illuminati ran the world before the Internet and nanofabrication were a thing and there is nothing preventing them from building another Helios. Hell, the world could as well laud them as saviors if they manage to build another global network and stop the chaos.
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Feb 3, 2014 01:28
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Gantolandon posted:The ultimate problem with Tong's vision is that it is hilariously over the top for something that doesn't even really solve the problem. The Illuminati ran the world before the Internet and nanofabrication were a thing and there is nothing preventing them from building another Helios. Hell, the world could as well laud them as saviors if they manage to build another global network and stop the chaos. As a matter of fact, that's basically what they're going for at the end of Invisible War since JC did blow up Echelon and that more than anything affected the nature of society in the sequel.
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Feb 3, 2014 01:34
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