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Declan MacManus posted:It should be okay if he's using the effects loop to bypass the power amp into the input of another amp. Then I guess the effects out of the other amp into the power amp in of the first amp? I'm actually really interested to see what that setup looks like. Doh, he did say COMBINED total output, yeah you're right, I just had this mental image of 50w into a preamp, which, incidentally is why I have a couple of new heads in the corner right now.
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Jan 29, 2014 03:53
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iostream.h posted:I'd be damned careful about this, it sounds like a surefire method of ending up with a fried input, output section, if not both on both amps. Taken from the Legend Amps documentation tripod page:  4 and 5. The Super Lead is basically a carbon copy of the RnR 50 but with a few additional features, so I'm assuming it should work as described. Still haven't had the balls to try it though. Edit: This covers the rear panel of both amps:  
XYZAB fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 09:06
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Yup, that sort of thing is absolutely fine, it's basically the exact same thing as running a separate head into a cab, or, a little more accurately, a preamp into a power amp into a cabinet. Sorry man, I had visions of your plugging your speaker output into the input on another amp and using some sort of convoluted 'Y' cabling method to get both amps working together and anyway, ignore me.
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Jan 29, 2014 09:23
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After doing all sorts of research on various types of amps, I've come to the conclusion that I probably want to go with a high end modeling rig. iostream.h recommended me the 11 Rack in the Guitar Thread a while back, and it seems like the best option. I can hook it up to some studio monitors for practice and if I ever gig, it can be plugged directly into the PA mixer. No dealing with power amps, heavy cabinets, or cab mics, which means less poo poo to lug around if I ever gig. I can just toss the thing in a small rackmount case or something and go. I don't really have the time, money, or inclination to deal with tube amp maintenance, so this sounds like my dream rig. Cheap, too - 11 Racks go for around $300 used.
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Jan 29, 2014 17:31
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iostream.h posted:Yup, that sort of thing is absolutely fine, it's basically the exact same thing as running a separate head into a cab, or, a little more accurately, a preamp into a power amp into a cabinet.  In related news, the locking lever hinges I ordered for my mic mounts have arrived. They're actually a hell of a lot better than I thought they'd be for ordering them sight unseen as having "fallen out of a truck". Now that I can measure them I'll put together a draft of the swing arms I'll need cut and post it in that goon sheet-metal cutting thread. Edit: I'm thinking of a way to incorporate cable management into the design of each slide arm whereby either extra steel material will be left near the base of the arm to allow for some sort of screw-in rubber grommet, or in the form of a series of protruding soft 'hooks' projecting outward along the plane of the metal to allow for a maximum of two cables to be wrapped around securely. I'm thinking of shooting for the latter solution simply because it will require no extra parts and I can model it off of my Roland GK3 pickup mount.  The middle piece, it's a standard tune-o-matic mount for the GK3, the hook in the top is to wrap the cable of the pickup around to keep it tied down and out of the way. If I enlarge it slightly to accommodate for standard XLR cables and incorporate it into the design, I think it might work. Might need to modify it slightly, might not. We'll see. At the same time, I'll have to be cognizant of the sharpness of the edges of the metal now too. Might have to order some grinding and polishing tips for my dremel so it doesn't end up slicing through every cable you wrap onto it. XYZAB fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 19:43
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Handen posted:
I'm ridiculously excited about this.
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Jan 29, 2014 19:46
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Handen posted:Taken from the Legend Amps documentation tripod page: I am pretty sure you are not going to get any more power but more "tone". The power tubes can not push any more power than they are, running another amp into it is only going to color the preamp section and not add the power up. When it goes through the other amp it is still capped by the output availability of the power tubes in the last amp of the series. If you ran your 50w into a 100w power section then you will double it but running a 50w into a 50w is only going to get you 50w. am I wrong? I am confused about what exactly you are trying to do. You could run both amps into different inputs in a single stereo cab like an old Marshall and those together will act like a 100w amp.
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Jan 29, 2014 21:22
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Handen posted:Oh man that's a new trick I've never heard of. Might have to see about putting it to use. Apparently I can stack/jumper my two Legend heads (Rock 'n' Roll 50 and Super Lead 50) together for a combined total output value of 100 watts, whereby one of the amps acts as the preamp and they both share the output duty. Not sure how that works yet but these are the kind of interesting things I like to find out. I used to do something similar with a pair of Fender Supers: run guitar + distortion/overdrive/etc into one amp, out the effects loop into a stereo pedal, one side of stereo pedal into effects return, other side into effects return of the other amp. Nice separation, and let me control both sides with a single preamp. I always got some hum out of it, though.
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Jan 29, 2014 22:18
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He did say 'combined' 100w output, not necessarily the usual way of looking at it, but he seems to have a handle on it based on the literature he posted
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Jan 29, 2014 22:55
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Smash it Smash hit posted:I am pretty sure you are not going to get any more power but more "tone". I'm not even exactly sure what I'm trying to do, I guess I was just assuming that stacking these two 50w heads would equal 100w output based on a flawed assumption from reading something into that manual that isn't actually there. Maybe I'll try it tonight and see what happens. In reality though if I ever needed 100w output from either of these amps I'd just save the hassle and plug into my Sunn Concert Slave. 
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Jan 29, 2014 23:02
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Handen posted:I'm not even exactly sure what I'm trying to do, I guess I was just assuming that stacking these two 50w heads would equal 100w output based on a flawed assumption from reading something into that manual that isn't actually there. Maybe I'll try it tonight and see what happens. In reality though if I ever needed 100w output from either of these amps I'd just save the hassle and plug into my Sunn Concert Slave. yeah I am pretty certain you can not combine power sections. You can run to separate speakers to get volume. 2 50w amps running in two 212 will put the same wattage to each speaker as a 100w would to a 412. it's the same concept of jumping channels In a old ampeg or fender you will get more preamp/color but not power, those tubes can only put out so much
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Jan 29, 2014 23:30
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The preamp out is an additional output from the opamp, it's not bypassing the power section of the first amp. The reason you go into the power amplifier input on the second amplifier is because you've already utilized the premap (and coresponding eq section) from the first head. It is two power sections operating in parallel.
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Jan 30, 2014 00:00
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jwh posted:The preamp out is an additional output from the opamp, it's not bypassing the power section of the first amp. Yes but that wouldn't result in 100w coming from one amp, which sounds like that is what they are trying to do?
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Jan 30, 2014 01:14
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jwh posted:The preamp out is an additional output from the opamp, it's not bypassing the power section of the first amp. This is exactly it, if you were to cascade the preamp sections it would akin to throwing a bunch of OD pedals in front of the input, which isn't necessarily a Bad Thing®. As far as combining power sections, it's POSSIBLE (look at all the paired mono block PA amps and such) but I don't think I've ever really seen it in a guitar amp, short of some of the MESA/Marshall block amps. Anyway, yeah, I've mentioned it before, yes, 'combined' with the two amps it'd be 100w out, but it wouldn't respond like a true 100w with the greatly increased clean headroom and all.
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Jan 30, 2014 01:52
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Smash it Smash hit posted:Yes but that wouldn't result in 100w coming from one amp, which sounds like that is what they are trying to do? Nope, the first amp is running 50w, and is simply outputting a preamp (non powered signal) into another 50w power amp. It's exactly the same as taking any other separate preamp (like an AxeFx) and running it into a power amp.
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Jan 30, 2014 03:13
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iostream.h posted:Nope, the first amp is running 50w, and is simply outputting a preamp (non powered signal) into another 50w power amp. It's exactly the same as taking any other separate preamp (like an AxeFx) and running it into a power amp. I get that but the resulting power in the second amp would still only be 50w not the 100w they want? I feel like I am missing something but I dunno.
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Jan 30, 2014 06:03
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Smash it Smash hit posted:I get that but the resulting power in the second amp would still only be 50w not the 100w they want? Look at it like this, uhh, I'll actually take a pic:  This is kind of upside down, but I suck at this sort of thing and it's late. At the bottom you'll see an 11 Rack, this is a Preamp ONLY unit, it will NOT drive a speaker (other than headphones) on its own in any way, shape or form. It's only purpose is to adjust the tonal qualities of a guitar and/or provide effects. At its most basic, if you turned everything off and simply ran the guitar straight through it, it'd be a pristinely clean signal that would sound as close to the guitar and pickups' natural sound as possible. From the 11 Rack, I highlighted each of the outputs, these would be quite similar to the effects loop 'send' or a 'preamp out' or even 'DI'. They're all basically, more or less the same thing. They carry the guitar signal that is now combined with the sound and/or effects imparted by the head/preamp/effects processor/etc. Again, at this point, there is no voltage to speak of with which to make sounds from a speaker. The 11 Rack outputs point to the 'return' inputs on each head. These are the loops used to insert effects processors in the signal chains (if you're curious as to why HERE instead of inline with the guitar input, just ask) and they feed directly (in MOST heads anyway) into the amplifier input which simply does nothing more than amplifies the signal being sent from the 11 Rack outputs to a level sufficient to drive each speaker. On the top you see the only 2 controls on each head that affect the sound in this signal chain. The volume controls for each channel. For the sake of the example, it's the same on either head regardless of the channel in question, the channel selection only serves to identify which volume control is 'active' at that time (I also drew the red lines from volume to return to further emphasize how each set of controls ONLY affects the amplifier in that particular physical unit). Other than that, there are ZERO tonal qualities from each head's preamp section being imparted to the guitar's signal. The only purpose either amp serves here is to amplify the signal to a level with which to drive speaker cabinets. I did it this way to (hopefully) illustrate how nothing each head, each preamp or any single processing unit in the signal chain can affect the amplifier's output wattage (other than the volume controls on each head). Note, the volume controls are placed, if you viewed them in a straight line, AFTER the preamp and effects loop, they're literally the only knobs that have effect on the sound at this point in the illustration above. Edit: Totally forgot to add that this is almost exactly what's going on with the dude's pair of amps, except instead of using a separate preamp such as the 11R, he's using the first amp's preamp section. Were he to detach it from that combo and set it on a desk, it'd be exactly the same setup. Another Edit: You can also see the DI on the back of the SLO, that's the same thing. It send the signal as altered by the preamp out at a line level (will not drive speakers) that you can slave to another amp, or plug straight into a mixer/recording console or whatever. I could take a cable from the DI, throw it into the 'return' plug on the Jub and do exactly the same thing you're doing there. Nothing here, or what you're doing affects the power amplifier section of either amp in any way, they can't. So, I hope that helps clear it up, and if I've happened to explain something that's already perfectly understood and completely missed something somewhere that was the actual question or confusion, feel free to mock me and call me a knowitall blowhard or something, it's late and sleep and stuff. iostream.h fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Jan 30, 2014 |
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Jan 30, 2014 07:39
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yeah that clears it up, I was a bit confused I was unaware of the third party between the two amps. words are so confusing on the Internet sometimes. the pictures helped a lot
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Jan 30, 2014 17:25
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Smash it Smash hit posted:yeah that clears it up, I was a bit confused I was unaware of the third party between the two amps. words are so confusing on the Internet sometimes. the pictures helped a lot Awesome, I'm glad it helped although be aware, there isn't REALLY a third party in the situation that spurred all of this, I just tried to break it down a bit more. Basically, in his scenario instead of the 11R he's just using one of his combo amps' preamp section, like I illustrated with the DI on my SLO. It's exactly the same thing even though their physical locations are different in that one is a stand-alone preamp and the other one is integrated with a Power Amplifier and speaker all in one box. Matter of fact, sometimes it's easier to divorce yourself from thinking that an 'amp = amp' and start thinking of themselves in light of their respective components, preamp, power amp, speaker cab. That way, whether you're referring to a combo, halfsack or whatever you won't lock yourself into a corner. Sorry if I just further confused things, I'm hopefully not coming across as overly spergy, I just dig talking about this stuff.
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Jan 30, 2014 18:30
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this question will be prudent, I am thinking of getting a sunn slave to use for guitar but could it possibly be used also, when not for guitar obviously, as a PA power amp? would it be effective or loud enough to keep up with loud music?
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Jan 30, 2014 20:29
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Smash it Smash hit posted:this question will be prudent, I am thinking of getting a sunn slave to use for guitar but could it possibly be used also, when not for guitar obviously, as a PA power amp? I'd lean towards 'probably not', but then it really depends on exactly how you're wanting to set everything up and just how loud 'loud' actually is. If anyone's interested, I've been piddling around working on some amp demo clips and fried a pair of output tubes in my Jubilee earlier. Tape was rolling at the time, said 'screw it' afterwards and threw in some SLO goofing off, trying to figure out what sounds best for a demo anyway, it's basically just noodling, but meh, here's the link: Fiery death in the studio today Iostream.H DIED I wrote a thesis in the comments section outlining everything that's there.
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Jan 30, 2014 21:08
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it'll be running two mains, it is not a professional set up just for house shows really. the current set up is not cutting the mustard. it's a grey sunn slave head, which I know is rated around 200 watts but are usually a lot louder. Itd just be pushing two 15' mains with tweeter and horns
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Jan 30, 2014 22:08
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Hey Handen, I was going back over all the cab/mic mounting system discussion and noticed I nor anyone else mentioned multiple mic mounting would be kind of important and key. When you get to the beta/test phase I've got a couple more guys willing to pay for the privilege of being beta testers too. Also, Smash it Smash hit, as long as the impedance matches up between the head and the speakers and all, I don't see anything wrong with trying it. 200 watts doesn't seem to me to be nearly enough to drive a pair of mains BUT, there's no reason not to try it, you might be very pleased with it! Your talking about using that Sunn head got me to thinking about (and please don't take this as condescending, I mean it in a pleasant way) all the different ways me and the bands I was in would figure out ways to get a workable PA back when I was (a lot) younger and barely had money for strings, much less dedicated PA gear. iostream.h fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jan 31, 2014 |
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Jan 31, 2014 19:58
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iostream.h posted:Hey Handen, I was going back over all the cab/mic mounting system discussion and noticed I nor anyone else mentioned multiple mic mounting would be kind of important and key. not at all, the powered pa I have now is dying and local bands are getting louder. I bought new speakers and new mics and cords but was hoping to get help from the people who use the pa with me (kinda a community pa) to help with a new head. I have a non powered mixer and was hoping to just kill two birds with one stone. I am trying to get money from people now by the $20 and hope to just grab a 400w powered mixer head soon.
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Jan 31, 2014 22:35
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iostream.h posted:Hey Handen, I was going back over all the cab/mic mounting system discussion and noticed I nor anyone else mentioned multiple mic mounting would be kind of important and key. The best part about using the unistrut is that you could attach as many swing arms as you want to it, though I would urge the use of a stereo bar if you plan to use a 2-mic recording technique. That being said, things are going a bit slower than I'd anticipated due to a job opportunity having opened up in another city that I'm putting all of my attention toward right now, and if I get it then unfortunately this project is going to have to be shelved for the foreseeable future. Goon projects, amirite?
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Feb 3, 2014 05:08
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Handen posted:The best part about using the unistrut is that you could attach as many swing arms as you want to it, though I would urge the use of a stereo bar if you plan to use a 2-mic recording technique. That being said, things are going a bit slower than I'd anticipated due to a job opportunity having opened up in another city that I'm putting all of my attention toward right now, and if I get it then unfortunately this project is going to have to be shelved for the foreseeable future. Goon projects, amirite? No worries man, if it wouldn't upset you, I may go forward with it a bit. I mocked up a mount in the studio and I have some ideas, I'll keep you looped in with whatever happens? What do you mean, 'stereo bar'? Is that something specific? My Google-fu falls weak today. In other news, I really just want to plug Granger Amps for anyone looking to buy something a little different. Yeah yeah, everyone and their brother's making turret board JMP/JCM clones, but the difference here is that Curt's just a nice dude. I can't even begin to relate how much time I've spent over there, hanging out, picking his brain and just talking music. If you want something, he'll do it or do his best to make it happen OR he'll just say 'hey man that's beyond me'. He's no BS, he keeps you in the loop and he really REALLY digs people playing his amps. So, check him out and all, if you talk to him tell him the dude with the blown up Jubilee sent you.
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Feb 4, 2014 18:56
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iostream.h posted:No worries man, if it wouldn't upset you, I may go forward with it a bit. I mocked up a mount in the studio and I have some ideas, I'll keep you looped in with whatever happens? Never heard of them before... Just spend 20 minutes on their website, and now I'm daydreaming about ordering a M20 Bantam Plexi head. 
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Feb 4, 2014 19:43
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So Ibanez introduced their version of a pornshop amp: http://www.musicradar.com/us/news/guitars/namm-2014-ibanez-unveils-tsa5tvr-tube-screamer-amp-593215  Five watt tube amp with built in tube screamer and *spring* reverb. $400. Thinking about getting one and selling my Vibrochamp, since OD and reverb are a lot more useful than vibrato. Wonder if the legs come off.
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Feb 4, 2014 19:54
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Dirt posted:Never heard of them before... Just spend 20 minutes on their website, and now I'm daydreaming about ordering a M20 Bantam Plexi head. (Yeah, I didn't make that any easier, sorry.)
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Feb 4, 2014 20:04
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iostream.h posted:Don't just order one! Call him up and have it spec'd to you! Wish it was in my price range.  going to have to settle for a second v4.
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Feb 4, 2014 20:30
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Remulak posted:So Ibanez introduced their version of a pornshop amp: I really, really want this. It fixes pretty much any of the (minor - you know what you're getting going in) gripes I have about my Champ reissue and adds a probably-good-sounding spring reverb, and, bonus, a built in TS, which imo works great with those lower wattage amps with 6"-8" speakers. What a neat little amp, I hope they're still selling it when I can scrape a few pennies together to get it. I'd probably end up voiding the warranty immediately by dicking around with the built in TS to adjust the frequency cutoffs a bit, though if it's all SMD I might not be so inclined to mess with it just because of the headache factor as I'm not well equipped to work on SMD gear.
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Feb 4, 2014 20:58
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That looks really nice actually! It's an accutronics tank, too, which is nice. And it has a speaker out, so you can drive something other than the 8" internal speaker.
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Feb 4, 2014 21:56
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I'm heading out shortly to go fetch iostream's Jet City 20watt head from my US shipping spot. Glad the wife works tonight as I think it's going to get loud at home very soon. 
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Feb 4, 2014 22:16
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I've only ever used solid state amps, I've owned everything from 15 watt Fender practice amps to Crate half-stacks. Currently I use a Peavey Bandit 112 and a Fender Frontman 212r. I have to say that I've never really truly been happy with the sound I get when trying to record guitars. I recently jammed with a friend who had an all-tube 5150 head and the sound quality in our guitars was night and day between us. I've decided I'd like to try getting in to tube amplifiers to get a better sound on my recordings. Can anyone recommend a small tube guitar amplifier that will only be used for practice and recording, has a good rock distortion/drive channel, and is ideally around $300 new or used? My ideal guitar sound is a thick and punchy distortion similar to Rise Against, NOFX, etc. I think I'm being unrealistic with my budget, so if I am then I'll take any recommendations that aren't absurdly expensive. edit - Here's one I'm looking at now, the VHT Special 6. http://www.amazon.com/VHT-AV-SP1-6-...s=vht+special+6 The Shep fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 22:36
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Sockington posted:I'm heading out shortly to go fetch iostream's Jet City 20watt head from my US shipping spot. Glad the wife works tonight as I think it's going to get loud at home very soon. You got picks and strings on the way, by the way.  Don't get all crazy when you unpack the thing, there's like, 2 rolled up packages of tubes and a ziplock baggie of some interesting stuff in there.
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Feb 4, 2014 23:35
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Well, I feel stupid. After dealing with my Jet City's spikiness in the treble for about a week, I tried cranking the bass control. What a difference it makes  Dimed mids, bass at about 8, treble at 0, and ta-da it's the amp I was hoping forI might get it modified for KT66s and maybe a new speaker at some point but I have an unhealthy amount of affection for this material object 
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Feb 5, 2014 01:27
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Cmdr. Shepard posted:I've only ever used solid state amps, I've owned everything from 15 watt Fender practice amps to Crate half-stacks. Currently I use a Peavey Bandit 112 and a Fender Frontman 212r. I have to say that I've never really truly been happy with the sound I get when trying to record guitars. Find something used and stick a Catalinbread DLS or Zvex Distortron in front of it? I'd scour craigslist for tube amps, you might get lucky.
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Feb 5, 2014 02:32
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Get a used Hot Rod series Fender amp. Baby's first tube amp.
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Feb 5, 2014 02:43
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Declan MacManus posted:Well, I feel stupid. After dealing with my Jet City's spikiness in the treble for about a week, I tried cranking the bass control. What a difference it makes I had this same situation recently with my OR15. I love the hell out of the amp but the combo of the amp + ppc212 cab was really blasting my ears sometimes. I got adventurous (turning knobs is scary and takes a lot of talent you see) and knocked the bass way up and the treble way down. Now I'm getting all the thick vintage tone I wanted and know I can bump the treble to noon if I need a cutting tone. I think there's a mindset with a lot musicians where noon = flat = neutral and that's not how things work. I've always been like that but now I'm beginning to trust my ears and understand how everything works together.
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Feb 5, 2014 02:52
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Declan MacManus posted:Well, I feel stupid. After dealing with my Jet City's spikiness in the treble for about a week, I tried cranking the bass control. What a difference it makes Yeah, I've already cranked it down quite a bit for the little home practice I've been using it on. On the other hand, at least it's not like the Palomino V32 of darkness. Also, I love my Jet City 22H 
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Feb 5, 2014 03:05
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