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Barbe Rouge posted:The list you made isn't evidence. There's nothing there that really points to demon possession.
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Jan 31, 2014 07:37
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Above Our Own posted:Oh but only selectively superhuman, okay. That isn't retarded at all. What are some examples of him being superhuman as opposed to just a hard motherfucker? I already provided context for his victory over Fenris. Other than that we don't see him do anything that crazy except for kicking everyone's asses and generally being tough as nails. We know he was stabbed clean through with a spear in his duel with Harding Grim, but it went through his lower abdomen, and while that is a little more than a scratch, "normal" people have survived such things. We see him takes a lots of cuts and bruises, but it's not like anywhere in the book does he get a sword rammed through his chest and just "Bloody-Nine" it until it goes away. The whole point of the B9 is that when he comes out he is physically and mentally destroyed. There's are numerous cases of humans performing "superhuman" feats in times of great duress (cue "woman lifts car off baby" story). Whose to say that the Bloody-Nine isn't just doing that?
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Jan 31, 2014 08:09
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Ravenfood posted:
He does have the willpower to change and the willingness to make sacrifices, that's pretty much all he's been doing in the time between the end of the trilogy and the beginning of Red Country and the only reason this changes is because he wants to save his loved ones.
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Jan 31, 2014 08:12
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Barbe Rouge posted:The retarded theory explaining the superhuman poo poo is - he is superhuman. Eh. In the context of an action story, Logen doesn't do anything that most action heroes couldn't pull off.
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Jan 31, 2014 16:31
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ulmont posted:Eh. In the context of an action story, Logen doesn't do anything that most action heroes couldn't pull off. Yeah but isn't he the only one doing this successfully? Other characters try crazy poo poo, but they tend to die or end up maimed.
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Jan 31, 2014 21:55
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Unless you're implying that Logen gets his rear end kicked and doesn't get a surge of adrenaline from that, but then sometimes does and gets very, very cold, then loses all ability to recognize anyone (get gets a good look at Tul Duru before he guts him and has no idea who he is) I don't know what you're reading. You can say its a mistake on Abercrombie's part, but I think its pretty clear there is more to it than "sometimes at very rare moments this guy gets adrenaline that he inexplicably never does at other times." Also, Ferro, who has seen Eaters fight, is impressed at his abilities when he goes BloodyNine. savinhill posted:He does have the willpower to change and the willingness to make sacrifices, that's pretty much all he's been doing in the time between the end of the trilogy and the beginning of Red Country and the only reason this changes is because he wants to save his loved ones. quote:Starting fights to assert dominance is pretty much northern culture. Swinging first or using your reputation to an advantage isn't exactly crazy town either and is actually practical/smart in that world. quote:I just don't like the "Logen is possessed/magic/demon-y" angle because I think it cheapens his character, and until Joe explicitly says otherwise I'll continue to believe it. Actually, even if he says otherwise I may still believe this. I've spent years denying much of the canon in the Star Wars and Warhammer 40K universes and I'm happier for it. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Feb 1, 2014 |
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Feb 1, 2014 17:13
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Ravenfood posted:
Well when someone produces a part of the book where the author explicitly tells me, in text, that the Bloody Nine is a magic entity independent of Logen himself then I might have to reconsider my view.
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Feb 1, 2014 18:29
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Ravenfood posted:Also, Ferro, who has seen Eaters fight, is impressed at his abilities when he goes BloodyNine. She's more than impressed. She's in awe after he carves a path out of the shanka infested cave for them by himself. This coming from someone who we see do superhuman things with her bow and we know is more than human. But no, Logen's just a badass who has gotten himself out of hundreds of these slim-chance-of-survival situations throughout his life. Anyone who is a better than average fighter with tiny, easily quotable, nuggets of wisdom could do this  Edit: On another note, the only other character who is lucky in combat like Logen would have to be to survive all of that on his own gets run through in The Heroes and dies. Xenix fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Feb 1, 2014 |
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Feb 1, 2014 19:17
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Haha I guess people like characters they can relate to so I shouldn't be surprised that it's popular on SA to interpret logen as just being mentally ill.
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Feb 2, 2014 02:12
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I think it's less that and more that people really, really want Logen to be personally responsible for every single bad thing he has ever done so that it's easier to blame him when he falls into old habits, and for some reason being mentally ill makes this easier to do compared to the guy being possessed.
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Feb 2, 2014 02:26
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Oh Snapple! posted:I think it's less that and more that people really, really want Logen to be personally responsible for every single bad thing he has ever done so that it's easier to blame him when he falls into old habits, and for some reason being mentally ill makes this easier to do compared to the guy being possessed. As one of the people who likes the mental illness interpretation (although I acknowledge that possession is more likely), its not about blaming Logen, but rather that the idea of mental illness is more relateable.
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Feb 2, 2014 02:53
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Just what mental illness is he meant to have exactly? Schizophrenia? Psychosis? Because its pretty insulting to people who suffer from schizophrenia to characterise them as being homicidal maniacs filled with blood rage. Also you would assume he is untreated, and people with untreated schizophrenia don't just have 5 minute episodes, they tend to go on for long periods of time. He also doesn't display any of the other things you would associate with most psychotic mental illnesses. If Abercrombie can write a good example of a wretched alcoholic, I am sure he could have actually written a good example of someone suffering from a psychotic mental illness. I just don't think he did in the case of Logan. Either way, he is a great character and I enjoy reading all the debate about it.
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Feb 2, 2014 09:35
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I don't know how anyone can claim he's not supernatural, that's a central point of the trilogy. I just think possessed is reading too much into it. I dunno, I just read him as a fantasy version of the norse berserker. You're right that he definitely can't control it. Mental illness is a poor term, but I saw it more like an uncontrollable trance, like the berserker. Some of his powers are straight from the myths, which don't have any possession. From writing about berserkers: quote:[Odin’s] men went without their mailcoats and were mad as hounds or wolves, bit their shields...they slew men, but neither fire nor iron had effect upon them. This is called 'going berserk.'". quote:Men who were thus seized performed things which otherwise seemed impossible for human power. This condition is said to have begun with shivering, chattering of the teeth, and chill in the body, and then the face swelled and changed its colour. With this was connected a great hot-headedness, which at last gave over into a great rage, under which they howled as wild animals, bit the edge of their shields, and cut down everything they met without discriminating between friend or foe. Was Logen especially affected by the seed? If he had something demonic going on then I would think he would have been, but my memory is foggy on that part. Jeffrey of YOSPOS fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Feb 2, 2014 |
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Feb 2, 2014 10:10
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Jeffrey posted:I don't know how anyone can claim he's not supernatural, that's a central point of the trilogy. I just think possessed is reading too much into it. I dunno, I just read him as a fantasy version of the norse berserker. You're right that he definitely can't control it. Mental illness is a poor term, but I saw it more like an uncontrollable trance, like the berserker. Some of his powers are straight from the myths, which didn't say there was any possession. From writing about berserkers: Spirits are distinct from demons, I believe, so the Seed wouldn't necessarily have had any special effect on him.
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Feb 2, 2014 12:40
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Smellem Sexbad posted:Just what mental illness is he meant to have exactly? Multiple-personality disorder would be the most likely suspect, and also Abercrombie isn't trying to make a commentary on mental illness, so no need to to get your feathers ruffled.
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Feb 2, 2014 22:05
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Yea I mean you see people with multiple personality disorder do this kind of stuff in real life too, makes perfect sense.
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Feb 2, 2014 23:38
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Smellem Sexbad posted:Just what mental illness is he meant to have exactly?
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Feb 3, 2014 00:18
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Jeffrey posted:I just think possessed is reading too much into it. I dunno, I just read him as a fantasy version of the norse berserker. You're right that he definitely can't control it. Mental illness is a poor term, but I saw it more like an uncontrollable trance, like the berserker. Some of his powers are straight from the myths, which don't have any possession. From writing about berserkers: Well we have seen multiple characters that were possessed/puppets so it's an aspect JA has used before. We also know that Logen has been empowered magically by these ancient spirits. Considering he blacks out whilst becoming superhuman and murderous a possession or something similar in that vein seems like the most logical conclusion.
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Feb 3, 2014 00:32
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adebisi lives posted:Yea I mean you see people with multiple personality disorder do this kind of stuff in real life too, makes perfect sense. Did you forget the part where these are fantasy books?
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Feb 3, 2014 01:09
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Mr.48 posted:Did you forget the part where these are fantasy books?
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Feb 3, 2014 05:05
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Above Our Own posted:Oh please. People bend over backwards to try and find reasons why his thing is a mental disorder and when someone makes the valid point that there are no real mental disorders that fit what Logen does you say "B-BUT it's just fantasy!" What are you talking about? I stated over and over in my posts that I think posession is the better explanation, but that I also understand the appeal of the multiple personality theory. I dont think Abercrombie meant to involve mental illness at all. Please stop jumping at imaginary arguments.
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Feb 3, 2014 19:04
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Mr.48 posted:What are you talking about? I stated over and over in my posts that I think posession is the better explanation, but that I also understand the appeal of the multiple personality theory. I dont think Abercrombie meant to involve mental illness at all. Please stop jumping at imaginary arguments.
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Feb 3, 2014 19:28
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Above Our Own posted:What? I'm criticizing your counterpoint made literally two posts ago for being out of context. You really shouldn't be confused by this. Above Our Own posted:Oh please. People bend over backwards to try and find reasons why his thing is a mental disorder and when someone makes the valid point that there are no real mental disorders that fit what Logen does you say "B-BUT it's just fantasy!" I never argued that the mental disorder theory is correct (in fact, I said the opposite), so what are you going on about?
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Feb 3, 2014 23:43
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What the gently caress dude. Mr.48 posted:Did you forget the part where these are fantasy books? Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Feb 3, 2014 |
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Feb 3, 2014 23:52
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Above Our Own posted:What the gently caress dude. Yes, and I stand by that, because they ARE fantasy books and not meant to be realistic, so a person who chooses to interpret Logen as mentally ill can do that despite the situation not being medically accurate. I dont know how to break it to you, but authors often exaggerate things in fiction, so if someone chooses to believe that thats what Abercrombie did, I wouldn't hold it against them, even though I dont agree.
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Feb 4, 2014 00:16
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Mr.48 posted:Yes, and I stand by that, because they ARE fantasy books and not meant to be realistic, so a person who chooses to interpret Logen as mentally ill can do that despite the situation not being medically accurate. I dont know how to break it to you, but authors often exaggerate things in fiction, so if someone chooses to believe that thats what Abercrombie did, I wouldn't hold it against them, even though I dont agree. Except that it's stupid and doesn't make sense unless you go through the gooniest of mental gymnastics to ignore the author and completely misinterpret a character on purpose so you join in on an autistic echo chamber in this thread.
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Feb 4, 2014 03:00
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*face turns red, steam comes out ears while reading The Book Barn* YOU GUYS ARE AUTISTIC THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN THE BOOKJFDS
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Feb 4, 2014 03:17
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I don't really agree with one of the motivations for people preferring Logen not be possessed. That is that it somehow removes responsibility from him for his actions. I don't think it really does. He's aware of what happens when he puts themselves in violent situations, yet as we see in Red Country he still relishes being a badass. Whether or not it's a spirit is pretty irrelevant as far as measuring the level of his moral turpitude. The only way that it would be different is if you think that Logen is in control of his actions when he's the Bloody Nine in a meaningful way, which I think is completely indefensible. Whether it's a spirit or he enters a berserker rage it's the same thing and removes his normal restraints.
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Feb 4, 2014 05:59
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I've always assumed that Logen is just your classic berserker with maybe a touch of the supernatural about him, but not much. To make it a case of demonic possession or something takes away from the character, to me, because then the Bloody-Nine is an affliction he suffers from and not an intrinsic part of himself.
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Feb 4, 2014 07:38
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Maybe the ambiguity actually adds to the character and there's no need to be upset about it 
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Feb 4, 2014 07:45
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Khizan posted:I've always assumed that Logen is just your classic berserker with maybe a touch of the supernatural about him, but not much. To make it a case of demonic possession or something takes away from the character, to me, because then the Bloody-Nine is an affliction he suffers from and not an intrinsic part of himself. This is my viewpoint as well. All other interpretations of the holy books is heresy and therefore shall be ridiculed and the owners of said viewpoints shall be excommunicated from the holy internet forums.
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Feb 4, 2014 13:02
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Khizan posted:I've always assumed that Logen is just your classic berserker with maybe a touch of the supernatural about him, but not much. To make it a case of demonic possession or something takes away from the character, to me, because then the Bloody-Nine is an affliction he suffers from and not an intrinsic part of himself. Above Our Own fucked around with this message at 15:48 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 15:46
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Alcoholism really is an apt metaphor. Almost to the point that I'd wonder if it was an intentional comparison. Joe does blog an awful lot about whiskey 
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Feb 4, 2014 16:52
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Cosca is his alcoholic though and he is quite wretched.
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Feb 4, 2014 16:55
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So I finished the trilogy and am about 3/4 through Best Served Cold so far. Really loving this series. I am wondering though why Friendly is given the POV treatment. Unless things really develop from here his character doesn't seem to justify it. Others see him as a creepy, violent convict obsessed with numbers and when we are given his POV it turns out... he is a creepy, violent convict obsessed with numbers. Do his POV chapters turn out to have a point or will I get to enjoy(?) more of him getting awkward boners when female characters are counting?
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Feb 7, 2014 02:49
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PlagueDog posted:So I finished the trilogy and am about 3/4 through Best Served Cold so far. Really loving this series. Friendly having a POV keeps the reader close to Cosca without ruining his character by actually explaining his antics. And I really liked Friendly, anyways. He had the best line in all of BSC.
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Feb 7, 2014 03:07
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Wangsbig posted:Maybe the ambiguity actually adds to the character and there's no need to be upset about it
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Feb 7, 2014 06:18
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cheese posted:There are multiple points where strong evidence is presented that Logan is both in control and not in control of his Blood Nine persona Just curious, where do you see him in control of the Bloody Nine? The only place I can remember seeing it for sure is after the bar fight in Red Country when he stop himself from killing Shy when she stops him from hanging one of the kidnappers. I suppose one could argue that he had to be in control to spare all the members of his dozen from The First Law, but we never see it so we don't know if there were outside forces at work or if it was Logen.
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Feb 7, 2014 06:43
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I always read it that he wasn't fully bloody nine'd whenever killing people. He definitely plays up the persona even when still in control. Plain old Logen is still a huge guy and pretty badass. It's when he gets hurt or gets too into the killing that the bloody nine takes over. I don't recall him ever being able to regain control from the bloody nine through willpower.
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Feb 7, 2014 07:14
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Xenix posted:Just curious, where do you see him in control of the Bloody Nine? The only place I can remember seeing it for sure is after the bar fight in Red Country when he stop himself from killing Shy when she stops him from hanging one of the kidnappers. I suppose one could argue that he had to be in control to spare all the members of his dozen from The First Law, but we never see it so we don't know if there were outside forces at work or if it was Logen. Seems like he was controlling his B9 fugue-state in the arena fight in Red Country because he intentionally let himself get beat up until he was mad enough to start laughing and show Glama Golden the gap in his fingers. Afterwards we see him killing indiscriminately in the throes of his madness. And nothing suggests he was B9 during all of the duels he fought with his dozen. It's pretty implicitly stated that he was drat near a peerless warrior even before he flipped out. Though he took a spear through the gut from Harding Grim that may or may not be enough to do it. The only time it's stated he took the epic style beating that usually results in B9 is his brief recounting of his duel with Threetrees after which he was laid up for weeks crying like a baby.
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Feb 7, 2014 07:23
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