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Yeah, the issue with the Westernization system is that no one can agree *why* Europe took off when everyone else didn't, so Paradox just says "gently caress it, we're just doing determinism."
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Feb 8, 2014 04:37
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maev posted:There are a lot of theories around regarding European technological development and why it pulled ahead of the rest of the world, and honestly there really isn't room to go into that in detail without de-railing to probational levels Actually, you know, I think this would be a great subject for a D&D post, and would really love to see a thread about "Why did Europe pull ahead of other areas of the world during the Renaissance?". That would be super interesting. 
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Feb 8, 2014 04:38
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I think the Europe vs Barbarians thing is really more of a side-effect of the system that is left because it produces accurate-enough results, suppressing China and whatnot. I think the real reason lies firmly in Europe and it's early modern modern west - stagnating east split, which is not something you can just leave out in a game about these times. I mean, you could have just set Europe's starting tech level as 10 and let Ryukyu try to outrun it with their meager income (remember the system was designed when tech directly correlated with income). But that doesn't really work with Eastern Europe - Commonwealth began raking in cash on grain boom, Russia reaped benefits Siberia, and yet they stagnated because of reasons beyond pushing armies and managing little ships. Besides, westernisation should be in the game and should keep that name, unless you feel Peter the Great's reforms - literally one of three most culturally defining periods for the nation - should be just a +10% science points random event. I mean, the system could be more elegant and less deterministic and it sure would be cool if Paradox came up with some cool Technology Revamp DLC but you know, I see where they're coming from.
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Feb 8, 2014 04:47
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PleasingFungus posted:It's not? StashAugustine posted:Yeah, the issue with the Westernization system is that no one can agree *why* Europe took off when everyone else didn't, so Paradox just says "gently caress it, we're just doing determinism." *e* vvvvvvvvvvv We're limited in what we can do in terms of modding. I remove all tech group penalties and even out the units and do the best I can to open up Events and Decisions for White Folks to the rest of the world, but even that's fighting a losing battle when you look at something like the Japan events. Wolfgang Pauli fucked around with this message at 05:19 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 05:15
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Would it be more accurate to have this idea I've been kicking around as maybe a mod for EU4. Have the European and other nearby tech groups more closely matched in tech cost percentages. The European "western" tech group is dropped in tech speed matching the rest of the nearby world. Then if certain conditions are met in the time period, and they meet the right conditions then they can enact a decision to enter the "Englightnment" Tech Group. The decision could be something like: Byz = does not exist OR Border Shared with Byz, TUR As a very rough way to simulate it maybe (and as merely an example!), with some added mechanics to handle foreign powers untouched by Europe to reach "Enlightenment". Taking the decision early will give you religious turmoil and other effects making it rough if you want a stable kingdom/republic. But waiting until midgame to late game or so, you can enact a new "limited enlightenment" which gives you the same tech group but with fare less cost to stability. It would allow for some simulation for how some parts of Europe adopted it quickly, while others really didn't fall far behind but didn't progress as heavily either. It would also allow for, say, Morocco to be on par for a longer period of time to some powers who wouldn't benefit from an early Enlightenment (Spain/Portugal). It'd need a unit overhaul to for this to match up properly though. Would this even be a good idea as a rough simulation that doesn't go into the nitty gritty? Or is it too simplistic?
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Feb 8, 2014 05:16
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Bel Monte posted:]Would this even be a good idea as a rough simulation that doesn't go into the nitty gritty? Or is it too simplistic? No, it doesn't simulate what happened at all. Byzantine falling had little to do with what ended up happening. The current tech group and starting tech levels do a better job in that it places Europe at fairly close tech parity at the start but gives them an advantage at progress since any decent reading of history places the roots of Europe's accelerating advantage deep into the middle ages. The processes that lead to Europe's eventual dominance were pretty clearly already in play by the start of EU, Europe had lagged for a long time but the gap was narrowing by the High Middle Ages in Western Europe and it was becoming equivalent, or potentially superior, in productivity per person by the time EU starts. edit: To do a best-guess "accurate" model of how technology and "westernization" should occur in the timeframe, EU would probably have to revolve around a complicated set of mechanics revolving around agricultural surplus. I would play that but I don't think many people would be interested in a game where one of the mapmodes is soil conditions and the course of a war is of less overall importance to your country then properly adjusting tax laws to increase available capital to farmers without pissing off the nobility too much or weakening central authority. SickZip fucked around with this message at 06:57 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 06:18
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PleasingFungus posted:Wade-Giles is a font, now? No but Cyrillic isn't really a font either, its an alphabet. I was just trying to think of annoying things to put on a map.
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Feb 8, 2014 06:22
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Are there any mods currently in existence that even out unit stats?The Nozzle posted:No but Cyrillic isn't really a font either, its an alphabet. I was just trying to think of annoying things to put on a map. Wade-Giles on a map wouldn't annoy me that much- it's how things were written at the time and for a long time after. If you were to mix the two, however... 
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Feb 8, 2014 06:34
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Wouldn't the Westernisation mechanic in EU4 be far more interesting, and possibly more effective, if it were based on how much trade was occurring between the Western tech group nations, and the non-Western nations?
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Feb 8, 2014 06:41
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Kavak posted:Wade-Giles on a map wouldn't annoy me that much- it's how things were written at the time and for a long time after.  ) and localisations ( ) in CK2 and EU4. Hearts of Iron has army ministers with the armoured spearhead doctrine, but the units themselved are armored divisions. The unit mission to assist defenders in a nearby province is outright defined ascode:
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Feb 8, 2014 06:45
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Wouldn't the Westernisation mechanic in EU4 be far more interesting, and possibly more effective, if it were based on how much trade was occurring between the Western tech group nations, and the non-Western nations? Well that would be a fun and interesting dynamic that could lead to some interesting scenarios where Europe doesn't dominate the lesser peoples of the world and instead some sort of parity is reached, so of course we cannot consider it, bro.
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Feb 8, 2014 06:52
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I do think that it would be a decent idea to lift the 'border on Westerners' restriction and open it up, maybe to trading or diplomatic contact. Also, minor reforms like the Native Americans got should really be standard for sub-Muslim tech groups.
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Feb 8, 2014 07:06
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What is the "Westernisation" of a country even implying in EU? The way the mechanic currently works feels very much like an early industrial revolution, increasing the society's focus on urbanisation, and production, instead of remaining a nomadic/feudal agricultural society. That would make sense given the increased difficulty in westernising as a sprawling nation, at least.
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Feb 8, 2014 07:17
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nutranurse posted:Well that would be a fun and interesting dynamic that could lead to some interesting scenarios where Europe doesn't dominate the lesser peoples of the world and instead some sort of parity is reached, so of course we cannot consider it, bro. Get down off your cross. I'ld like to hear the justification for trade triggering westernization considering western trade was often harmful to devastating for countries. Western trade smashed West Africa flat and triggered inflation and economic turmoil in China. The Med region was more closely linked to Europe by trade then the model for Westernization, Russia, yet North Africa and the Ottomans never joined the Western cultural sphere or did anything you could justifiably call Westernization. The idea isn't even anymore leftist or align with your particular political axe because your new Westernization mechanic is still based on the idea of non-westerners as receptacles waiting for occidental wisdom to reach their ears. The real problem with Westernization is that, no matter what triggers it, its still watching a meter fill up while fighting rebels every so often. We probably need more advanced internal mechanics before we can get a decent trigger or system for Westernization SickZip fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 07:19
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El Pollo Blanco posted:What is the "Westernisation" of a country even implying in EU? The way the mechanic currently works feels very much like an early industrial revolution, increasing the society's focus on urbanisation, and production, instead of remaining a nomadic/feudal agricultural society. That would make sense given the increased difficulty in westernising as a sprawling nation, at least. It's basically a generic version of Peter the Great's reforms: standardizing the alphabet, adopting European sciences and philosophy, importing architects for cities and military advisors, etc.
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Feb 8, 2014 07:21
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SickZip posted:Get down off your cross. It would be a fun gameplay mechanic in a game that's billed as a sandbox alt-history game? It would lead to most of the world not being locked out because no silly, Ethiopia/India/Korea/non-European nation could never catch up to the glorious European ubermensch? It's not a political thing, it's about opening up more nations to being actually fun to play rather than, as you even acknowledge, having them sit around waiting for a meter to fill up. Besides, it was not the trade that was devestating to the native populations of whatever place the Europeans happened to land in, it was the gross exploitation that followed. These two things are not so tied together that we cannot fathom some alt-history scenario where some nation takes what they learned from the westerners and cross-pollinate it with what their own cultures, thus dragging themselves out of their own medieval-esque sociopolitical quagmire. Heck, Japan did it. e: Besides, saying that all trade with European powers was bad for non-European nations is such a limited, and rather misinformed, way to view history. MLKQUOTEMACHINE fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 07:30
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Ofaloaf posted:Paradox is already in the habit of mixing spellings in-game and in the code itself. They use colors ( I can't speak for Sweden, but in Germany you don't dedicatedly learn British or American English. As long as the word you use is correct somewhere, most teachers are fine with it.
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Feb 8, 2014 07:40
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nutranurse posted:It would be a fun gameplay mechanic in a game that's billed as a sandbox alt-history game? It would lead to most of the world not being locked out because no silly, Ethiopia/India/Korea/non-European nation could never catch up to the glorious European ubermensch? Its not a fun gameplay mechanic because its just a different trigger for the same mechanic. Waiting for a westerner to trade with you is as boring as waiting for a westerner to settle next to you. Its also even less historic. SickZip fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 07:46
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Then give the non-Europeans something to do while they wait for western enlightenment.
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Feb 8, 2014 07:48
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Ofaloaf posted:Paradox is already in the habit of mixing spellings in-game and in the code itself. They use colors ( Yeah, but like ArchangeI the spelling isn't really that different, compared to things often being unrecognizable between Wade-Giles and Pinyin.
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Feb 8, 2014 08:18
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nutranurse posted:Then give the non-Europeans something to do while they wait for western enlightenment. I think the most constructive thing we can draw from this is that there is a deep desire for paradox to expand and deepen the existing aspects of eu which don't directly relate to war or expanding by the sword. The new wealth of nations dlc is welcome in this regard, and I'd love to see a continuation of this direction rather than more events for America or made up civ continents.
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Feb 8, 2014 08:33
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The problem I see with tech groups and Westernization is that they're an incredibly deterministic element in what's otherwise a very sandboxy game. Everything else goes ahistorical as soon as the game starts, but technology and military progression is fixed in a way that hobbles non-European countries and outright cripples Africans, Americans, and other native groups, so which regions become dominant is basically set in stone. No matter what a player does, countries outside of the Western tech group are inherently worse than countries in the Western tech group until they Westernize, the progress of which is unrelated to scientific progress or available resources, and the result of which still leaves them playing catch-up to the Western countries that had that advantage from the beginning. Europa Universalis is a game where minor non-European nations can create vast and powerful empires through skillful play, but are still saddled with tech penalties that make nations progressively worse the further away they start from Western Europe. Same goes for the CKII converter, which decides your tech group based more on what religion you are and whether you hold major European capitals than what your technology level was.
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Feb 8, 2014 09:15
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Hey guys, a friend of mine is trying to get into Darkest Hour and he was wondering if there were any good tutorials out there. I've looked around pdox palaza and googled around to see if there are any good AARs but I couldn't find anything that was specifically a tutorial for the game. Does anyone know of any good ones? Thanks!
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Feb 8, 2014 09:15
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If you convert a CKII save that has the Roman Empire in control of all of Europe will it still be categorized as unwesternized?
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Feb 8, 2014 09:16
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:If you convert a CKII save that has the Roman Empire in control of all of Europe will it still be categorized as unwesternized? No, holding certain "key provinces" will make the converter give you a higher tech level than it normally would, so conquering Europe completely will almost certainly put you in the Western tech group. Religion's also a major factor; Catholic countries will start off in the Western tech group even before held provinces or realm technology is looked at, while Muslims will start off in the Muslim tech group, and so on.
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Feb 8, 2014 09:29
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Amusingly, if you remove the malus for every non-western tech group, the Muslim nations just seem to run at 100% negative Piety, which gives them a massive tech advantage. I just let a game run for 100 years, and the Ottomans were about 3 techs ahead in each area, plus they had 18 Ideas to the average of 11 in Europe.
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Feb 8, 2014 09:39
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You know, as much as I like EU4's monarch points, I'd have just made a single pool to draw from instead of three.
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Feb 8, 2014 09:47
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DrSunshine posted:Actually, you know, I think this would be a great subject for a D&D post, and would really love to see a thread about "Why did Europe pull ahead of other areas of the world during the Renaissance?". That would be super interesting. Riso posted:You know, as much as I like EU4's monarch points, I'd have just made a single pool to draw from instead of three. I don't see the point in that aside from dumbing it down. The only change I'd make is giving more use for military points so dumping into a military idea group wasn't such a no-brainer.
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Feb 8, 2014 10:06
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You sound like a grog. Reducing the points to a single pool actually makes the decisions you take even more important because there is more of a trade off. As a bonus it also solves all the problem where you run out of one type of points you actually need while you are overflowing in the others.
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Feb 8, 2014 10:42
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SickZip posted:I would play that but I don't think many people would be interested in a game where one of the mapmodes is soil conditions and the course of a war is of less overall importance to your country then properly adjusting tax laws to increase available capital to farmers without pissing off the nobility too much or weakening central authority. I'd like to play that too so for the Paradox people reading this that's a consumer market that has doubled over a few hours, keep an eye out!
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Feb 8, 2014 10:45
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Agean90 posted:ABYSSINIA Best part of that map  SickZip posted:edit: To do a best-guess "accurate" model of how technology and "westernization" should occur in the timeframe, EU would probably have to revolve around a complicated set of mechanics revolving around agricultural surplus. I would play that but I don't think many people would be interested in a game where one of the mapmodes is soil conditions and the course of a war is of less overall importance to your country then properly adjusting tax laws to increase available capital to farmers without pissing off the nobility too much or weakening central authority. I want this game SO MUCH 
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Feb 8, 2014 10:53
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That's a bad idea. England had historically pretty much no famines from at least the 11th century because of the private free farmers vs continental serfs. In your model the English would just steam ahead full speed while the rest of Europe just rediscovered Greek thought.
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Feb 8, 2014 11:22
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SickZip posted:I'ld like to hear the justification for trade triggering westernization considering western trade was often harmful to devastating for countries. 1. SEPARATE TECH PENALTIES: This should mostly penalize Diplomatic tech for most Asian countries, while penalties for Administrative, and especially Military tech, are less pronounced. 2. ASIAN TECH ADVANTAGE AT GAME START: If Asia starts with an advantage, Europe won't ahistorically dominate as much. 3. FOREIGN CONQUEST OF A REGION INCREASES TECH PENALTIES: Divide the world into (possibly overlapping) cultural-technological regions. (I suppose an alternative to tech groups) As larger parts of a region are conquered by countries from outside the region, tech penalties increase. Assuming proper balance, Europe would quickly gain an advantage in Diplomatic tech, which it would then use strip away trading posts in Asia. This would start the process of European tech advantage, and as Europe came to dominate more and more, this advantage would become greater and greater, causing a snowball effect as better tech allows greater conquests resulting in greater penalties. From the perspective of a player in Asia though, they would be able to repulse European advances, and thus prevent this snowball effect. Europe would still have a teching advantage though, but it should not be so great that Westernization would be a requirement. Really, Westernization should probably just be something for Eastern Europe in this timeframe, an option for countries which have thrown out foreign oppressors. (Hordes/Turks/Germans/Swedes)
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Feb 8, 2014 11:23
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I liked March of the Eagles tech mechanic, where getting beaten up by a more technologically advanced nation gave you a bonus to (military) tech at least. Makes sense with how people adopted guns, tactics and even foreign advisors eventually. As for EUIV I mod in some more even late-game military units, because the "double malus" that non-western nations get with slower research AND no way to catch up with the european über units late in game is just a kick in the balls gameplay wise. Considering ships ignore the vanilla structure it's just bringing the land units in line and make military tech levels actually mean something
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Feb 8, 2014 11:52
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quote:I liked March of the Eagles tech mechanic, where getting beaten up by a more technologically advanced nation gave you a bonus to (military) tech at least. Makes sense with how people adopted guns, tactics and even foreign advisors eventually. Yeah, it's very good and should be part of the other games.
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Feb 8, 2014 12:00
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ArchangeI posted:I can't speak for Sweden, but in Germany you don't dedicatedly learn British or American English. As long as the word you use is correct somewhere, most teachers are fine with it. Kavak posted:Yeah, but like ArchangeI the spelling isn't really that different, compared to things often being unrecognizable between Wade-Giles and Pinyin. 
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Feb 8, 2014 13:22
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I dunno if it was mentioned here already, but we now have a guy dedicated to mod support and our script:quote:This seems to have flown under the radar during yesterday's Twitter flow from PdxCon in Miami but Paradox Development Studio announced that it will add a new fulltime position - Usermod Coordinator - to better support modders. This will include, but is not limited to: I would not be too surprised if he standardised the spelling too. Probably to US English though, ugh.
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Feb 8, 2014 13:31
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Main Paineframe posted:No, holding certain "key provinces" will make the converter give you a higher tech level than it normally would, so conquering Europe completely will almost certainly put you in the Western tech group. Religion's also a major factor; Catholic countries will start off in the Western tech group even before held provinces or realm technology is looked at, while Muslims will start off in the Muslim tech group, and so on. Regarding his question, the answer is actually yes. Roman Empire is most likely to be created by Orthodox Greeks, and Orthodox countries will convert as eastern no matter what "key provinces" they hold. The only way for orthodox to start as western is to have an average tech of 5 in your whole realm. That is only achievable by playing a long game.
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Feb 8, 2014 13:34
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Riso posted:That's a bad idea. England had historically pretty much no famines from at least the 11th century because of the private free farmers vs continental serfs. What's your point? But seriously isn't that one of the reasons why much of the industrial revolution occurred in the UK rather than in France or Spain.
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Feb 8, 2014 17:27
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He had better move pirates to defines so that I can turn the bastards off next time I play Aceh->Malaya. Without the points nerf to non-Western tech groups, Chinese and Indian tech group countries can totally remain only 1-3 techs behind Europe depending on ruler luck. As Malaya, I had to actually hold off on teching for a bit to allow Spain to get 8 ahead of me when I westernized in the mid-1500s.  Wiz was Qing, I was Malaya, Visc started as Japan but it was AI for the last 100 years (weird uncolonized stuff is due to it being a pre-COP save). HRE was AI Austria going absolutely nuts with inheritances and such. It inherited half of Burgundy, Scotland, Ireland, Poland, and Denmark and had >600k troops at game end.    
Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 20:58
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