|
Donraj posted:It's a circumstantial argument and I don't really buy into it, but the big example they usually give is Lash. Followed by Bob helping him against Cowl I'm pretty sure that's not Dresden's secret magic power. Names just have power in this kind of magical setting.
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 01:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 09:36 |
|
|
Vateke posted:I'm pretty sure that's not Dresden's secret magic power. Names just have power in this kind of magical setting. Harry seems to be the only one doing it though, at least a wizard of his power.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 01:35
|
|
|
Vateke posted:I'm pretty sure that's not Dresden's secret magic power. Names just have power in this kind of magical setting. This seems more likely than Dresden having some special power with names, yeah. Also, I'm re-reading the series again. Last time I started from book 5 or 6, but this time I decided to go right from the start. I'm about 3/4 of the way through Fool Moon now, and it has lots of good bits despite still being my least-favorite book. When Harry's talking to Subconscious Harry, some of the stuff Subconscious Harry does and says implies that he's somehow appearing from the future instead of just being a pain-hosed dream. e: Names are important in this book too - Harry refers to that demon as "Chauncy" until the end of that scene, and afterwards he uses the full name when thinking about him - he's not Chauncy the fairly harmless chatty dude, he's Chaunzaggoroth the powerful evil demon. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Feb 10, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 01:38
|
|
|
AlphaDog posted:When Harry's talking to Subconscious Harry, some of the stuff Subconscious Harry does and says implies that he's somehow appearing from the future instead of just being a pain-hosed dream. Don't read too much into that; everyone knows that Future Harry only appears in the form of Rashid.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 01:44
|
|
|
Poopy Palpy posted:Don't read too much into that; everyone knows that Future Harry only appears in the form of Rashid. Then who's Cowl?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 01:48
|
|
|
MildShow posted:Then who's Cowl? Cowl is obviously Future Elaine. Kumori is Future Maggie.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 01:49
|
|
|
Ferrovax is future Mister?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 01:51
|
|
|
Hieronymous Alloy posted:Kumori is Future Maggie. Y'know, this makes the idea of Cowl being future Harry not sound as dumb. We know there's gonna be a huuuuge Apocalyptic thing happening. Harry's already started down that dark path of being forced to do questionable to bad poo poo to survive. Magic often comes from the mother's side, but not always. So, what if, many years down the line. The world is in ruins, the big bad has taken down all the heavy hitter, Mab, Ferrovax, etc. And because of (reasons) Harry and his Daughter/Apprentice get sent back through time? What if the energies required to get back are astronomical, and Harry needs the power to take down the big bad? Maybe shaking up the old static order of things (Black Council) is necessary to get some preparation for Armageddon rolling? Maybe he would sacrifice thousands to the Darkhallow in order to save billions, at the cost of his humanity. And just like the end of Changes, he sets up certain failsafes to take himself down once the job is done. And then Maggie starts to rebuild, end of series.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 02:06
|
|
|
Len posted:Whenever this comes up in the thread I get confused because literally nowhere does it say that. In Dead Beat Harry is able to win back Bob's allegiance by reminded him that he gave him a name. At the end of White Night, Bob specifically lists giving Lash a name as a factor in her developing an independent personality. In Turn Coat Demonreach's eyes glow (in gratitude?) when Harry bestows upon him that name. I'd guess that played a part in winning the spirit's allegiance. In Ghost Story we have Uriel almost freak out when Harry tries to give him a nickname. Uriel then proceeds to give a very HINT HINT monologue on how names are extremely important things, and mortals shouldn't just play around with them. In Cold Days he displays enough talent in guessing appropriate names for Mother Winter, that he summons her. I think she also remarks that she's impressed by his ability to guess names for her (even if he didn't get the primary name for her and mother summer). Names are tied into identity. Humans take up nicknames all the time because we're pretty flexible in how we see ourselves. Ancient gods/spirits/forces however are supposed to largely unchanging. By giving these creatures alternative names, somehow Harry is slightly modifying their fundamental nature. This could have enormous consequences.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 06:35
|
|
|
He also gave Toot a nickname.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 06:47
|
|
|
Donraj posted:It's a circumstantial argument and I don't really buy into it, but the big example they usually give is Lash. Followed by Bob helping him against Cowl In addition there's the Uriel thing mentioned here, and one of the more significant clues suggesting Harry having unusual name-based powers popped up in Cold Days - he got the name of He-Who-Walks-Before by saying "By my name I command thee: Tell me who you are!". It also fits very thematically with the whole Outsider power thing really. Outsiders are supposed unknowable monstrosities (or more significantly, nameless horrors). What's a way to make the unknown known? Put a name to it. It also goes hand in hand with (major Cold Days spoiler) Nemesis being arguably the big bad behind all the big bads of the series. The power of Nemesis seems to be redefining who its victims are; Harry having his own powers in defining things seems like an appropriate match up for that. Outside the novels proper, I seem to recall the author answering someone's question about Harry giving out his full name in the books by saying the line at the end of Storm Front about "conjure by it at your own peril" being quite true, which also suggests name-related power (though I still can't track down the actual reference, so take this one with a grain of salt). Anyway, circumstantial, but there is a lot of suggestive stuff there.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 06:51
|
|
|
There was that time in an early book he gave a demon the third of his four names, and he made a big deal out of how it was dangerous to do so. That made it kind of surprising when he just yelled out his full name at an outsider spur of the moment like. Probably was worth it since he got the thing's name in return, but that's gonna have to come back and bite him in the rear end.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 07:29
|
|
|
Spoiler - Oblivion war: If you've read the thomas pov short story or jim's pieces on the oblivion war, one of the underpinnings for the dresdenverse is the ongoing efforts to erase from all memory knowledge of certain beings as a way to rob them of power. To unname them. It's certainly cannon that Names Mean Something Supernaturally in Dresden, it's unclear what exactly it takes to bestow a name, or if that's unique to dresden, but that a name has weight isn't in dispute. It's interesting to think about, and I enjoy that Butcher includes these things.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 09:28
|
|
|
keiran_helcyan posted:In Dead Beat Harry is able to win back Bob's allegiance by reminded him that he gave him a name. I fail to see how that is a power unique to Harry though. We don't see anyone else anywhere in the series giving things names. I get that wild speculation is part of the lull between books but seems to me literally anyone could give something a name not just Harry.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 13:31
|
|
|
Well, we know Harry is starborn and that it gives him some key advantage against outsiders. Naming could be it. It would certainly be more interesting than the Harry just having the property "Protection from Outsiders." Harry throws around a lot of flashy magic, but I feel like the stuff that actually helps him the most tends to be summoning. That goes hand in hand with naming.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 15:57
|
|
|
Harry, even when he knows better, treats supernatural entities like human beings with free will (and all the responsibility that implies) all the time, and his giving things nicknames seems to be an extension of this tendency. Bob isn't just an informational spirit, Bob is his sleazy-but-well-meaning buddy who lives in a skull. Lash isn't the shadow of an immortal fallen angel, she's a person in her own right, etc. And, by and large, the more he treats these beings like people, the more they start to act like people. I don't know if it's down to actual Magic Naming Powers or something else (or nothing at all), but it feels like there's something going on. If nothing else, it adds some texture to Nemesis being something else that subverts supernatural entities by removing the constraints on their behavior. I feel like the idea of free will, with Harry as its champion and Nemesis as its, well, nemesis is becoming the central thematic lynchpin of the series.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 16:05
|
|
|
keiran_helcyan posted:In Dead Beat Harry is able to win back Bob's allegiance by reminded him that he gave him a name. You're forgetting that he gave the Archive a name as well.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 16:29
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Harry seems to be the only one doing it though, at least a wizard of his power. Doesn't basically everyone tell him that it's a really stupid thing to do because of Reasons, though? I thought it was more Harry being stubborn about his nicknaming habit than anything.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 16:32
|
|
|
Wittgen posted:Well, we know Harry is starborn and that it gives him some key advantage against outsiders. Naming could be it. It would certainly be more interesting than the Harry just having the property "Protection from Outsiders." what does starborn even mean?
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 16:33
|
|
|
WastedJoker posted:what does starborn even mean? We don't know yet.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 16:36
|
|
|
apostateCourier posted:Doesn't basically everyone tell him that it's a really stupid thing to do because of Reasons, though? I thought it was more Harry being stubborn about his nicknaming habit than anything. I was under this impression, too. The reason we don't hear about more wizards at/above Harry's weight class tossing out nicknames left and right is that they are acutely aware of the dangers associated with it. By the way, regarding Lucifer/Uriel: even though the Hebrew posted upthread transliterates into Helel (or Heylel), it's not broken down the way Uriel is. "Uri-el" means "light of God", as previously noted; "Hey-lel" translates (as best I can find) into "brightness" or "shining one", but was commonly used to refer to Venus, the day/morning star. (The Greek god Phosphoros was also associated with Venus, and the direct translation of "Phosphoros" into Latin is "Lucifer".)   
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 17:09
|
|
|
Grundulum posted:I was under this impression, too. The reason we don't hear about more wizards at/above Harry's weight class tossing out nicknames left and right is that they are acutely aware of the dangers associated with it. well that's just a linguistic quirk of the fact that the latin Lucifer (lit. bringer of light) was also referring to Venus which is interestingly associated with several mythic and religious stories regarding "bright and shining" ones who "fall" into darkness(since Venus was not always visible at night, despite the fact it was the brightest 'star' in the sky)
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 18:43
|
|
|
So I just started reading The Woodcutter by Kate Danley; it's a murder mystery set in the land of faerie. The feel/theme of the book feels so much like Butcher's interpretation of faerie!
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 20:32
|
|
|
In regards to Harry having a broken back, remember that the synopsis of Skin Game involves stealing the holy grail. IIRC one of the historical myths about the grail was that it had healing powers. Last book we had that hint about about masks/mantles so my assumption is that Butcher is premptivly setting up an out for Harry so that in 2-3 books once he's finished telling winter knight stories there's a graceful way to shake up the formula without using retcon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 10, 2014 21:22
|
|
|
Now that Molly is the Winter Lady would Harry necessarily want to give up the Winter Knight job? Keeping the mantle is probably the best way to protect her.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 00:25
|
|
|
WastedJoker posted:what does starborn even mean? Didn't Lash mention it had something to do with how the stars aligned at Harry's birth?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 01:48
|
|
|
I've been re-listening to the books and something stood out to me that somehow through my many many re-listening I managed to miss. The Accords are maybe 20 years old, 30 tops but probably not even that old. That means that Mab suddenly, in Harry's lifetime, decided that all of the supernatural powers needed rules for their disputes. Am I reading into something that everyone else got a long time ago? We know why now but does no one else wonder, well, why now?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 03:54
|
|
|
So, even if Harry were to somehow get out of the Winter Knight gig, why wouldn't Mab seek revenge on him for betraying her? She, uh, does have a certain history with that sort of thing.Bunnita posted:I've been re-listening to the books and something stood out to me that somehow through my many many re-listening I managed to miss. The Accords are maybe 20 years old, 30 tops but probably not even that old. That means that Mab suddenly, in Harry's lifetime, decided that all of the supernatural powers needed rules for their disputes. Am I reading into something that everyone else got a long time ago? We know why now but does no one else wonder, well, why now? I keep hearing that mentioned and I'm not sure where it comes from. Which book says that?
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 04:08
|
|
|
I don't have them on ebook so I can't search, I think it was Proven Guilty as that was the last one I was listening to. The phrase, if anyone has ebooks, was '10 or 12 years ago' I believe. Now I"m going to have to get the books on another format
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 04:19
|
|
|
I think I always assumed that there had been prior agreements similar to the accords and the accords were just the most recent.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 04:22
|
|
|
I think that was just the rules getting updated/revised, which apparently happened in 1994.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 04:57
|
|
|
I get the riding the zombie dinosaur reference now. All about bending the rules but not breaking them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 11, 2014 06:10
|
|
|
So, nearing the end of Changes and noticing something odd. When the Red King says that Arianna was "Remarkably ambitious,” and “Determined to cling to the past, rather than exploring new opportunities," what exactly did he mean? You wouldn't expect the oldest vampire to be the one wanting to buck tradition... Other than the tradition of side-lining vampires who lose control of their blood thirst, I guess
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 19:06
|
|
|
Could that have been an oblique reference to the Red's Nemesis connnections? They clearly have some, given a Red party served as the infection vector for Leah and, presumably, Maeve. Poor Ferovax, or however you spell his name. Wittgen fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Feb 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 01:24
|
|
|
Donraj posted:So, nearing the end of Changes and noticing something odd. When the Red King says that Arianna was "Remarkably ambitious,” and “Determined to cling to the past, rather than exploring new opportunities," what exactly did he mean? You wouldn't expect the oldest vampire to be the one wanting to buck tradition... Major Cold Days spoilers to answer that question, you may want to wait on that answer because that's grade A foreshadowing regarding a major plot point for the rest of the series going forward. Wittgen posted:Could that have been an oblique reference to the Red's Nemesis connnections? They clearly have some, given a Red party served as the infection vector for Leah and, presumably, Maeve. Probably. It does explain why when Michael came through the way at the Council meeting in Proven Guilty there were Outsiders fighting alongside the reds. The assumption at the time was simply that there were Mortal sorcerers aiding the Reds but I'd wager it was Nemesis related.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 07:27
|
|
|
Speaking of Michael, with the synopsis of Skin Game out and the fact we know one of the swords is getting an owner (and I think I read somewhere that he's coming out of retirement? I think?), it seems like a safe bet he's going to drink from the Grail and be healed, to Knight again. Not sure how I feel about that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 16:08
|
|
|
That sounds like something that would have to happen if Dresden is ever going to actually meet Maggie.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 16:28
|
|
|
Illuyankas posted:Speaking of Michael, with the synopsis of Skin Game out and the fact we know one of the swords is getting an owner (and I think I read somewhere that he's coming out of retirement? I think?), it seems like a safe bet he's going to drink from the Grail and be healed, to Knight again. Not sure how I feel about that. This would be great. Whatever undercutting of a previous story would be more than made up for by the fact that Michael is awesome. More Michael could only be good.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 19:49
|
|
|
Hrm, so I've been rereading the series and I came across something interesting. (The spoilers ahead discuss Dead Beat, Changes, and Ghost Story.) Sooo in Ghost Story, Uriel takes Harry back to the scene where he's at the church, his back is broken, and the enemy "cheats." And the cheat is when Harry is thinking about how everything's gone wrong and the Fallen whispers, And it was all your fault, Harry. Well, in Dead Beat, when Cassius is beating the poo poo out of Harry, out of nowhere there is one line in italics: No one is coming to save you, Harry. I think this lends some credence to the idea that the Fallen who manipulates Harry in Changes is Lash or Lasciel, since she obviously tries the same game in Dead Beat. I guess the Dead Beat try isn't cheating because he's accepted the coin, but the Changes try is cheating because Lash chose to sacrifice herself? Or it really is just Harry thinking to himself, but I seriously doubt it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 08:35
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 09:36 |
|
|
Hawkgirl posted:Hrm, so I've been rereading the series and I came across something interesting. (The spoilers ahead discuss Dead Beat, Changes, and Ghost Story.) The Changes try is cheating because an Uriel-level bad guy implanted the thought into Harry's head. Like, perhaps the Devil Himself. It wasn't any of the Fallen.
|
|
#
?
Feb 14, 2014 08:48
|
|
