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Solars cause ripples, like a stone thrown into a pond. The bigger their actions, the bigger the ripples as they affect the lives of people and the region which makes it easier to find them unless they're laying low. Infernals are the ones who aren't attached to the Loom, they're Out of Fate and have Gone Dark as you say so are much harder to track, you have to look for things that are being affected without a seeming cause..or go to where the Blasphemy alarms are ringing loudly to investigate the cause. Abyssals also can't be tracked by the Loom I think, because of their affiliation to the Underworld which isn't part of the Loom.
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Feb 8, 2014 17:36
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Helena P Blavatsky posted:This probably isn't supported by the actual books since I only read 1E books a while ago, but I thought essentially Solars after they exalted were decoupled from the Loom - they're adrift from destiny able to make their own path, and as a result when they begin kicking at the pillars of heaven threads begin to unfurl from the Loom as this rogue agent changes things. I've got no clue how you would predict where Solars exalt prior to exaltation, but you could watch for high-destiny blips that suddenly "go dark"? A Solar wouldn't go dark. The Loom would represent it more likely as a 'Huh, something funny happened there, it was kinda awesome. Somebody dumped a LOT of essence here...' Of course, there are things besides Solars that pump out Essence. Dragonbloods, Sidereals, a pissed off god and/or elemental. Etc. An Infernal or Abyssal would go dark, the former for failing spectacularly and probably dying. The latter for failing spectacularly and actually dying. Or, at least, that's how it could be explained by someone looking for strange things on the Loom.
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Feb 8, 2014 18:12
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Abyssals actually had a Charm that decouples them from the Loom -- it follows that if they have a Charm for it, they don't get it automatically upon Exaltation. Solars should probably also have one in theory, I guess maybe in Stealth? But I don't think it was ever published. The Exalts that are decoupled from the Loom automatically are the ones that are powered directly by Primordial juice, so Alchemicals and Infernals. Primordials and their direct physical extensions (second and third circle demons and direct Exalted) make their own reality and aren't made real by Loom reinforcement, so they're outside of fate. Things like first circle demons and ghosts are only outside fate when they're in places not governed by the Loom -- a ghost or first circle demon in Creation is ensnared by fate in the manner of something small and light walking into a spiderweb, while Primordials are big enough to just tear through it and not care. Solars and Abyssals can achieve that metaphysical weight, but don't get it for free. All of the above is likely to change in 3e -- Neither Holden nor John are terribly impressed with how complicated "Outside of Fate" got by the end of 2e, especially since the concept started its lifespan as a little bit of system shorthand for "These beings can't have their memories changed by Sidereal Charms."
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Feb 8, 2014 18:51
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bartkusa posted:Why would Sidereals know all about you? I agree the Loom itself should be, at best, incredibly vague on this sort of matter. The comic where Kejak watched all the Solars while chatting with Nara-O, was well as the comic with the head of the Division of Endings and Black Ice Shadow watching Cynis dude kill a young Solar, both give an impression that it can be used for world surveillance that I'm less than happy with. But Sidereals do have pretty useful tools for hunting Solars/Lunars if they want to. Auspicious Prospects for Journeys used on a Wyld Hunt, Efficient Secretary Technique for quickly collecting important field data, Of Truths Best Unspoken and Of Things Desired And Feared for remembering atrocities that have not yet come to pass and then plotting to prevent them. I don't think most Bronze Sidereals spend much time doing such things ("better things to do!" after all} but if they did they could be frighteningly effective.
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Feb 8, 2014 18:53
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IIRC Solars (and all Exalts really) have the power to change Fate by channeling Essence. Pretty much any time you cast a spell or use a Charm it can make it so that a guy who was supposed to die on Tuesday will instead still be alive; the son who was supposed to quest to avenge his dad will instead stay home and become a merchant, etc. The Loom tries to compensate and plan around these changes but it can create snarls that the Sidereals have to sort out. Is that pretty close?
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Feb 8, 2014 18:53
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Mendrian posted:IIRC Solars (and all Exalts really) have the power to change Fate by channeling Essence. Pretty much any time you cast a spell or use a Charm it can make it so that a guy who was supposed to die on Tuesday will instead still be alive; the son who was supposed to quest to avenge his dad will instead stay home and become a merchant, etc. The Loom tries to compensate and plan around these changes but it can create snarls that the Sidereals have to sort out. The idea is that all mortal Essence expenditure changes fate a bit, yeah -- when you use a Charm, the result is you do something other than what you were fated to do. This doesn't mean you're outside fate ALL THE TIME if you can use Charms, though. And for some reason this isn't the case with spirits.
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Feb 8, 2014 18:59
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I actually brought up the fact that Abyssals are in fate a bit ago when I made that massive post. Reading their future automatically botches, which I guess says that you can read the future of Other Exalts, kind of, and use it to tell where they are if you're really loving lucky and use Sidereal Lore and stuff? Honestly with Sidereals it would be cool if 3E didn't go out of it's way to explain that all the bad things that happen inside Fate are because Sidereals aren't as good at weaving the Loom as the Maidens or whatever it was. This was the reason for Paradox, last I checked, at least.
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Feb 8, 2014 19:23
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I can never remember if Abyssals are inside or outside Fate...
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Feb 8, 2014 19:27
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Gearhead posted:I can never remember if Abyssals are inside or outside Fate... Inside. They're Inside. It's a terrible joke but almost sadly true; to remember anything about Abyssals, think about Infernals and what they have, then remove anything useful. This doesn't just apply to Fate, but even the Diplomatic Immunity of their Eclipse-alike. Fiends are immune to the Dead, Fae, and Demonds. Moonshadows are only immune to the Dead.
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Feb 8, 2014 19:43
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(But note that while Abyssals are inside fate, loyalists are constantly taking instructions from the Deathlords, who are outside, and even renegades may have their behavior shaped by ghosts in the Underworld, who are also outside. It's difficult for fate to predict the actions of Abyssals when Abyssals constantly change their expected behavior according to input from variables outside the equation.)
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Feb 8, 2014 19:46
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Stephenls posted:(But note that while Abyssals are inside fate, loyalists are constantly taking instructions from the Deathlords, who are outside, and even renegades may have their behavior shaped by ghosts in the Underworld, who are also outside. It's difficult for fate to predict the actions of Abyssals when Abyssals constantly change their expected behavior according to input from variables outside the equation.) Fair enough that this is true. It just always felt jarring to me that the game goes 'you died, but even though there's a thing specifically that's a loom for the dead you aren't on it and are still on the normal one'. It just feels like a weird thing.
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Feb 8, 2014 19:48
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Stallion Cabana posted:Fair enough that this is true. It just always felt jarring to me that the game goes 'you died, but even though there's a thing specifically that's a loom for the dead you aren't on it and are still on the normal one'. Their realness trait is running on the Loom when they're in Creation; it's running on the Calendar when they're in the Underworld. And unless they have an anti-Wyld charm, when they're in the Wyld their realness trait is replaced by a fakeness trait, which is a dangerous thing to have, because as it goes up they unravel.
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Feb 8, 2014 19:50
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Will there be stuff in 3E about wandering around in the Underworld without being under the Calender? Or is there stuff like that in 2E that I missed? It's a cool idea that the Abyssals can run on either the Calender or the Loom but if there's nothing done with it, it ends up feeling kind of empty.
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Feb 8, 2014 19:56
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Stephenls posted:Their realness trait is running on the Loom when they're in Creation; it's running on the Calendar when they're in the Underworld. And unless they have an anti-Wyld charm, when they're in the Wyld their realness trait is replaced by a fakeness trait, which is a dangerous thing to have, because as it goes up they unravel. What the heck is a fakeness trait?
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Feb 8, 2014 19:58
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Pretty sure the Abyssals book mentions that the Abyssals thread on the Loom snaps as they exalt. EDITL Page 29 of Abyssals 2nd Ed: quote:Her strand in the Loom of Fate corrodes and snaps, occasionally causing damage to the threads around her that make up creation PrinnySquadron fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 20:01
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Attorney at Funk posted:What the heck is a fakeness trait? Your! Posting! I actually also want to know this, I don't remember any Abyssal-specific dissolve-into-Wyld mechanics. Unless, I guess, there weren't any and you're just describing the consequences suffered by anyone who trudges out past the border marches without any active Integrity charms or whatever.
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Feb 8, 2014 20:04
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PrinnySquadron posted:Pretty sure the Abyssals book mentions that the Abyssals thread on the Loom snaps as they exalt. It does but they are still inside Fate, as Unseen Wisp Method states, it takes them out of Fate. The Exaltation itself snaps their Mortal Desinty, as is noted on page 30, but the only mechanical effect seems to be 'rolls to find their future automatically botch', so they are still effected by stuff like the Fate Keyword. Here's the relevent passage from page 95 with what it means that their mortal destiny is snapped; quote:Although they Ferrinus posted:Your! Posting! I'm pretty sure this is just the standard thing that happens to any Mortal or Exalt caught outside Creation without protective charms like Integrity Protecting Prana.
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Feb 8, 2014 20:09
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Attorney at Funk posted:What the heck is a fakeness trait? Mostly a Homestuck joke. PrinnySquadron posted:Pretty sure the Abyssals book mentions that the Abyssals thread on the Loom snaps as they exalt. That doesn't mean anything, it's just some bullshit in a fluff chapter written by someone who didn't care about keeping fate consistent. The actual rules are: Abyssals are inside fate unless they have the Charm that makes them outside fate. This matters to the extent that Sidereals have some Charms that behave differently when used on creatures inside or outside fate, and Abyssals are meant to be inside fate for the purpose of those Charms. Unless the Abyssal sinks the XP into the "Outside Fate" Charm, anyway. Likewise, there's that armor Crimson Banner Executioner has; that renders him outside fate while he's wearing it, and if an Abyssal were to get access to a suit of that, he'd have reason to wear it, while an Infernal wouldn't. Infernals are supposed to be outside Fate because Neph specifically wrote them as thorns in the side of the Sidereals in the same way that Abyssals were meant to be thorns in the side of the Solars (that didn't work, because Spectral). ... The above is a bunch of confusing nonsense, I know. I have it down pat; I know exactly how fate works. I have held Holden down and ranted at him until he knows how it works, too; I'm not sure he's ever going to forgive me for that. Our position with regards to the state of fate and how fate works and inside/outside fate as of late 2e is that it's a hideous amalgam of emergent choices put together with no overall plan; it's too complicated and it puts too much conceptual weight on a bunch of bullshit that isn't supposed to matter. What you can probably expect as of 3e is that the Calendar of Setesh isn't going to be presented in the context of "The Underworld's equivalent to the Loom of Fate," the Loom of Fate itself will remain a thing but largely a background object; there'll be some effort put into writing Sidereals so the fanbase doesn't get the idea that Sidereals can use a google maps query to find your Solar and drop anvils on him until he dies whenever they want. None of this was ever supposed to matter; initially, "Outside of fate" just meant "When a Sidereal uses Avoidance Kata, you remember them having been there and just vanishing, and are slightly puzzled at how everyone else suddenly remembers both them having been there and just vanishing and also them never having been there." But like every fun idea Jenna ever put into the game as an afterthought, it became irresistibly tantalizing to future writers and everyone played with it until the ball of yarn ended up unraveled and tangled all over the room, tying the couch to the television. Stephenls fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 8, 2014 |
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Feb 8, 2014 20:15
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Stephenls posted:That doesn't mean anything, it's just some bullshit in a fluff chapter written by someone who didn't care about keeping [Insert topic here] consistent. Exalted.txt ........... But yes, no one has ever had any idea how Fate is supposed to work. It would be nice if we could hammer down a consensus of "Sidereals know lots of things because they are the Illuminati/Secret Masters, but they don't know everything because that would make the game really lovely."
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Feb 8, 2014 20:28
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Exalted.txt I endorse the contents of this post.
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Feb 8, 2014 20:29
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Stephenls posted:The above is a bunch of confusing nonsense, I know. I have it down pat; I know exactly how fate works. I have held Holden down and ranted at him until he knows how it works, too; I'm not sure he's ever going to forgive me for that. Our position with regards to the state of fate and how fate works and inside/outside fate as of late 2e is that it's a hideous amalgam of emergent choices put together with no overall plan; it's too complicated and it puts too much conceptual weight on a bunch of bullshit that isn't supposed to matter. I agree with this and it gives me hope that the Loom of Fate will be an interesting setting element. I also agree with A_Raving_Loon's interpretation of how reading the Loom of Fate ought to work, and I think the Loom itself is one of those things that benefits from having fewer words written about it; The most powerful gods putting in place a Loom that orders the movement of all things in Creation, fundamentally separating it from the chaotic Wyld, is very interesting. Too many words about that, though, turn it into an obtuse physics engine and result in bad determinism debates. (Though determinism can be a good plot element, I think it requires significant Player/GM collaboration; I think it would be very cool to do a Minority Report-esque storyline with a Solar where Sidereals are convinced that you are the Solar who will kill an important Dynast and cause the Realm to fall into civil war, and it happens. If both the player and GM aren't on board, though, I think this kind of storyline falls flat. Minority Report is a good reference to make, I think, because while the Sidereal predictions can be wrong like the weatherman, they are usually right, and so are probably right in your case.) This post, though, makes me curious about the Metaphysics of the Underworld. With all the word-count you all ought to save by not talking about precisely what wicked or creepy things are happening in the palaces of the Deathlords in excruciating detail, I think it would be worthwhile to set up the Underworld as some place with metaphysics as weird and alien as those of the Wyld. Now, I understand this could potentially be difficult to reconcile with the desire to put political intrigue and competing fiefdoms there, but I think it could be done and make the Underworld radically different from Creation. Even something as simple as ghosts tending to end up in communities of similar ghosts could make the politicking their take on its own color. Consider: "Mask of Winters demands passage for his forces through the Village of Jilted Lovers Who Ended Their Lives; This has traditionally been a fiefdom of The Lover Clad In Raiment of Tears, but is being occupied by The Walker In Darkness as part of his campaign to incorporate the castle of Patricide By Second Sons into his holdings."
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Feb 8, 2014 20:46
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:This post, though, makes me curious about the Metaphysics of the Underworld. With all the word-count you all ought to save by not talking about precisely what wicked or creepy things are happening in the palaces of the Deathlords in excruciating detail, I think it would be worthwhile to set up the Underworld as some place with metaphysics as weird and alien as those of the Wyld. Now, I understand this could potentially be difficult to reconcile with the desire to put political intrigue and competing fiefdoms there, but I think it could be done and make the Underworld radically different from Creation. Even something as simple as ghosts tending to end up in communities of similar ghosts could make the politicking their take on its own color. Consider: "Mask of Winters demands passage for his forces through the Village of Jilted Lovers Who Ended Their Lives; This has traditionally been a fiefdom of The Lover Clad In Raiment of Tears, but is being occupied by The Walker In Darkness as part of his campaign to incorporate the castle of Patricide By Second Sons into his holdings." This is great. Something like this rather than the current "the Underworld is a mirror of Creation, except lovely and pointless" would go a long way toward making the Underworld actually a cool place to go with cool stuff to do. I don't think it should be as weird as the Wyld, but anything to make it feel like its own unique place would be cool. Hell, even just looking at how a society of people who never (or almost never) die or get old/sick/tired deals with population pressure gets interesting. 50 Foot Ant wrote a bunch of posts about the societal problems you'd see in communities of long-lived elves over in the TG Worldbuilding thread, a lot of that is applicable to the Underworld too. I've been mulling over a fluff rework of Abyssals and the Underworld for my Cortex+ hack, similar to the one I did for Infernals. The touchstone I keep coming back to is post-apocalyptic fiction: Yes, large swathes of the wildernass are desolate and dangerous, and there are monsters and crazy biker gangs out there, but you've also got places and moments of stark beauty and real humanity. Visually, sure, it can be weird and morbid if you're not used to it or if you're coming at it from the perspective that death is something to be feared--I mean, there are orchards of skullfruit trees irrigated by rivers of fire, and you best get inside before the scorpion rain hits--but there's a reason to care about the Underworld: It's a place that's fundamentally broken, but it's a place the dead call home, and the dead are people too. The Abyssals, then. Part of me wants to sever them from the Deathlords altogether--maybe a certain number of Solar Exaltations were trapped in the Underworld when the first Primordials were slain. Maybe they've been there all along, Exalting ghosts and death-touched mortals, looking to create heroes for the lands of the dead, albeit heroes touched by Oblivion. Maybe the reason nobody's seen them before is because, until now, they've been focused on the Underworld, building kingdoms, fighting Oblivion, and generally being, you know, actual mirrors of the Solar Exalted. It's only recently, with the more ambitious Deathlords pushing into Creation, that the Abyssals are turning more of their attentions to the sunlit lands. Their powers are creepy and morbid and generally draw from a place of decay and ennui, but they can use those powers to tear down the stagnant and corrupt as easily as they can use them to become lords of murder. Basically, I want room for Abyssal Darth Vader and Abyssal Maya Hero Twins in equal measure. Also? gently caress Oblivion. I mean, yeah, it's there and the Neverborn are scary mad, dead gods gibbering in their tombs, but the Deathlords are, to me, way more interesting as ancient, ridiculously powerful ghosts of former god-kings, motivated alternately by remorse, redemption, revenge, or simply being conquering warlords because that's all they know how to be. Maybe some of them worship the idea of Oblivion, but most of them (and in my view, there would be a lot of them--maybe not the ghost of every Solar killed in the Usurpation, but a lot more than 13) are at least relatable beings you might actually be able to find common cause with. That also opens up a lot more potential relationship dynamics between Deathlords and Abyssals than master/slave, I think, and keeps both Abyssals and Infernals as variations on "corrupted Solar Essences" without being quite so samey. Huh. That was a few more words than I intended to ramble about a subject only tangentially related to 3E.
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Feb 8, 2014 22:16
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So, uh, maybe a stupid question, but where can I find an official source for the Ink Monkeys character creation errata? I can't find it in the compilation PDF, and Google just turns up a bunch of RP forum posts.
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Feb 9, 2014 02:44
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Donraj posted:So, uh, maybe a stupid question, but where can I find an official source for the Ink Monkeys character creation errata? I can't find it in the compilation PDF, and Google just turns up a bunch of RP forum posts. it's in the Scroll of Errata.
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Feb 9, 2014 02:50
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:But yes, no one has ever had any idea how Fate is supposed to work. It would be nice if we could hammer down a consensus of "Sidereals know lots of things because they are the Illuminati/Secret Masters, but they don't know everything because that would make the game really lovely." This is the kind of thing that works beautifully for actual play at the table with a particular group and campaign but doesn't work for arguing over setting minutiae online. Needless to say I want more exalted material to be about this level.
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Feb 9, 2014 09:27
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xiw posted:This is the kind of thing that works beautifully for actual play at the table with a particular group and campaign but doesn't work for arguing over setting minutiae online. The foremost argument you'll see in defense of Sidereals is "but it all works so beautifully in a Sidereals-only game that focuses on Sidereal stuff." The problem is that each successive Big Book of Exalteds have, up to this point, been pulling triple duty...they've been A). a new, focused campaign unto themselves, B). a new set of options to integrate into a broader, mixed-play experience, and C). a new selection of NPC/antagonist material for GMs to use. Like, obviously a lot of the online minutiae-arguing that surrounds Exalted discussions is pretty dumb and lovely, but at the same time it's also kind of understandable that if your game doesn't offer coherent explanations and examinations of things like this that it's exactly what you're going to end up with. Especially when you're dealing with something like the power dynamics of a half dozen factions of demigods, most of whom have a reason to hate one or more factions and want them dead/imprisoned/mildly inconvenienced.
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Feb 9, 2014 09:50
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Kai Tave posted:Especially when you're dealing with something like the power dynamics of a half dozen factions of demigods, most of whom have a reason to hate one or more factions and want them dead/imprisoned/mildly inconvenienced. Backsliding Immaculate Monk who doesn't quite try to kill returning Solars, but just makes it really, really difficult for them to survive or accomplish anything, in order to see if they're actually returning heroes and not corrupt solar-powered scumbags.
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Feb 9, 2014 21:17
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:Backsliding Immaculate Monk who doesn't quite try to kill returning Solars, but just makes it really, really difficult for them to survive or accomplish anything, in order to see if they're actually returning heroes and not corrupt solar-powered scumbags. That's almost Ten Winds from Keychain of Creation. Hypothetical alternate Ten Winds who follows the rest of the party around like one of those tsundere rivals shounen heroes always attract. ("I'm not constantly testing your resolve and my skills against yours while uniting with you against greater threats every season finale because I like you or anything!") Stephenls fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 21:42
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Stephenls posted:those tsundere rivals shounen heroes always attract. Stay away from this dumb trope bullshit in E3 and you'll have a lifelong customer. Also blind any freelancer or developer who reads Exalted fan comics.
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Feb 10, 2014 21:52
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Mexcillent posted:Stay away from this dumb trope bullshit in E3 Please do this.
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Feb 11, 2014 00:08
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Even if they do, it's not going to stop the fanbase from doing it themselves.
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Feb 11, 2014 00:34
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Vadoc posted:Even if they do, it's not going to stop the fanbase from doing it themselves. Idiots will be idiots, that's a given, we really don't need that crap in the book proper is all. Also: Stephenls posted:That's almost Ten Winds from Keychain of Creation. The less said about Keychain of Creation the better.
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Feb 11, 2014 00:56
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Mexcillent posted:Stay away from this dumb trope bullshit in E3 and you'll have a lifelong customer. Also blind any freelancer or developer who reads Exalted fan comics. Have you considered that you yourself are a tsundere rival Exalted has attracted
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Feb 11, 2014 01:04
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Bigup DJ posted:Please do this. If I could pay money to make references go away, I would. Like if I pay $100, no Homestuck references, no Doctor Who wink and nods, no undercover Stargate references. No characters who are totally not-Vampire-Hunter-D, no totally-not-Innuyasha, and absolutely nobody from the cast of One Piece. I think you get the idea. I'm not saying I think Exalted 3 will have these things. I don't think it's happened before. I'm just saying I would pay money to lock out the possibility.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:11
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Captain Oblivious posted:The less said about Keychain of Creation the better. Oh. 
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Feb 11, 2014 01:21
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Captain Oblivious posted:Idiots will be idiots, that's a given, we really don't need that crap in the book proper is all. Yeah, I can filter Exalted fans a lot more easily than I can say "Exalted is cool but ignore everything from page 23-45, the first two paragraphs of page 61, and the opening fiction from Chapter 7." Captain Oblivious posted:The less said about Keychain of Creation the better. I think I saw like one strip of this and it was a joke about Exalted martial arts training involving punching a river in half. What horrors am I missing?
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Feb 11, 2014 01:32
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Mendrian posted:I'm not saying I think Exalted 3 will have these things. I don't think it's happened before. I'm just saying I would pay money to lock out the possibility. Exalted 2e actually did have Homestuck references.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:26
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Rand Brittain posted:Exalted 2e actually did have Homestuck references. You have to tell me now. I have to know, so I can then go back in time and stop it.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:29
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Mendrian posted:You have to tell me now. I have to know, so I can then go back in time and stop it. You would fail, and yourself become a Homestuck reference.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:34
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Captain Oblivious posted:The less said about Keychain of Creation the better. Hey, Keychain was good, goofy fun. It just had some stupid fans.
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Feb 11, 2014 03:11
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