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So what did they really mean when they called him spoiled, rich and kid? I want to make sure I get all the subtleties of this after all.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:47
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They meant that he was a bratty upstart. Here, let me break it down: "spoiled" - Yuuki is using a kit made by the entire PPSE works team. "rich" - Yuuki is the heir to a rich family and using things no ordinary builder can get. "kid" - Yuuki is very young, and hasn't earned the Renato brother's respect like the last Meijin did. Everything the Renato brothers do and say ties into them treating Gunpla Battle very seriously. That is why they call it a war. Because they think it is serious business. So you see, they will stick to that metaphor and insult people by calling them peacetime brats. You could say that it is a gimmick to make them stand out because they are a side character and don't get much screen time. EDIT: Or I dunno, they could totally just be traumatized war orphans who found Gunpla and are trying to, I dunno, show the world the extent of their suffering by being really good at building model kits. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 06:54 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 06:51
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So basically, they meant everything they said in that list of insults except for the the peacetime bit? Kay.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:53
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tsob posted:So basically, they meant everything they said in that list of insults except for the the peacetime bit? Kay. Did you miss how they kept on calling Gundam Battling their war?
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Feb 11, 2014 06:56
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No, but I apparently missed how them calling it war somehow totally invalidates the idea they were ever involved in one. Apparently it ties in to the idea that if they were ever in a war then they would have to be totally edgy, grimdark characters practically cutting themselves to show their suffering to the world by way of gunpla - rather than the two of them just wanting to win at it because they feel they're better trained and more deserving or something. On the other hand, nothing bad ever happens to people in the world of Gundam Build Fighters, so I must be totally mad to think it's just possible they actually meant what they said. Nope, nothing bad ever happens to anyone there.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:01
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They even say "We'll show him our battle, no, our war" earlier in the episode. They made that poo poo up basically on the fly to define how they approach gunpla: Total war, win at any cost, gently caress fighting "fair" and "honorably".
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Feb 11, 2014 07:01
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You know tsob, I'm sure you have an argument somewhere but I just can't hear it past all that straw.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:07
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Those nerds at the bar in Zeon cosplay referred to Ral by a military rank! He must have been a war veteran, which is where he learned his amazing military tricks like "bodily throwing a dude into a computer".
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Feb 11, 2014 07:10
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It's not a terribly difficult argument to grasp actually. The only component is "maybe they meant what they said?". If you can't understand a simple concept like that, then woe is you I guess. You then argued that it was impossible for someone to have a dark past in this anime, to which I pointed out that Aila exists and has one and that being a former soldier isn't terribly dark in the first place. It's not like I'm even saying it's definite, just that I think it's possible. Apparently this makes me taking the crazy pills though.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:11
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tsob posted:It's not a terribly difficult argument to grasp actually. The only component is "maybe they meant what they said?". If you can't understand a simple concept like that, then woe is you I guess. You then argued that it was impossible for someone to have a dark past in this anime, to which I pointed out that Aila exists and has one and that being a former soldier isn't terribly dark in the first place. It's not like I'm even saying it's definite, just that I think it's possible. Apparently this makes me taking the crazy pills though. People aren't buying it because you're constructing a backstory that isn't even hinted at besides them saying the words "war" and "peacetime". The picture of the Renato brothers we have is that they're smug, take gunpla very seriously, and look down on other gunpla battlers. They even make up the war metaphor mid-episode, which suggests they're not carrying deep war veteran scars with them. Which is more plausible: That the Renato brothers are very serious about this battle and the opportunity to slap down what they say is a lovely little upstart, or that they have a war veteran past that is never mentioned or even hinted at? By your logic, it is exactly as plausible that Ral is actually a hardened military veteran because he got referred to by a military rank by a nerd in Zeon cosplay once.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:17
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There is kind of a difference in scope between "grew up on the streets" and "grew up on a battlefield". One of them fits the relatively down-to-earth Build Fighters. The other would be more at home in a regular Gundam series. When your argument is literally "it's possible because they said the word peacetime!" then I think you need to rethink it. Should I assume Sei is secretly being raised by his parents to violently fight crime with an assortment of guns from that one scene where he did pretty well aiming at targets?
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Feb 11, 2014 07:20
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And you're making up the idea that they made up the metaphor mid episode because they changed from using the word battle to war. Changing from one to the other doesn't mean they were making it up as they went along, it could also just mean that he thought one word more apt than the other after thinking about it for a second. You're interpreting the few facts they presented one way, I'm interpreting it another. Also, not actually seeing why it's unbelievable that Ral would be an ex army guy by the way. Edit: Actually no Blitzblast, that isn't the only evidence. Them constantly calling it a battle or war could also be construed as evidence, along with their focus on tactics. I'm sure the very idea ex-soldiers would use a different approach will provide you with no end of amusement as well though. Edit 2: Not actually suggesting they're child soldiers by the way, just ex soldiers. Their designs look like they could be mid 20s or even a touch older, so I find it totally feasible they were soldiers for a few years and then left it. tsob fucked around with this message at 07:27 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 07:21
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Yuki should've set the internal clock forward a week during the fight for the easy win imo
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Feb 11, 2014 07:26
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tsob posted:And you're making up the idea that they made up the metaphor mid episode because they changed from using the word battle to war. Changing from one to the other doesn't mean they were making it up as they went along, it could also just mean that he thought one word more apt than the other after thinking about it for a second. You're interpreting the few facts they presented one way, I'm interpreting it another. Something something Occam's Razor something something. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and not an allusion to a war-riven past, and sometimes a bunch of nerds playing Gunpla in a bar while wearing Zeon cosplay referring to a dude who looks exactly like Ramba Ral by a military rank is just a funny Gundam reference.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:28
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Occam's razor would support me actually I would imagine, since it's easier to suggest the people who use soldiery gunpla and talk about others not knowing war are actually soldiers than that they're just using it as a metaphor for how it isn't a game to them.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:30
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It's not like the Renato Brothers are actually just going to vanish after this episode, so we'll get to see what's up with them eventually anyways. If they are in fact ex-war vets, I'll buy you an avatar tsob.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:31
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Buy two or three beers instead. I won't be surprised if they don't turn out to be soldiers, I just don't think it's unpossible given how they've been presented because I don't see the idea of them being ex-soldiers as some horrific thing beyond the scope of the show. It's just a job, a bit dirtier than most, but still just a job most of the time.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:33
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tsob posted:Buy two or three beers instead. I won't be surprised if they don't turn out to be soldiers, I just don't think it's unpossible given how they've been presented because I don't see the idea of them being ex-soldiers as some horrific thing beyond the scope of the show. It's just a job, a bit dirtier than most, but still just a job most of the time. Speaking for myself, I'm not saying they aren't soldiers because that's too dark for GBF. I'm saying they aren't soldiers because it's not a well supported theory, bro.
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Feb 11, 2014 07:41
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I really think the complaint that the brothers lost just because the plot demanded it is unfair. The brothers might have won if they'd withdrawn to do more planning once they realized their trap didn't work. Or even if they simply hadn't gone in to finish the job with their main unit. Instead they got tunnel vision and became overly aggressive, essentially throwing strategy to the wind. They lost because they let their aggression and their disdain for their opponent get the better of them. And they still almost won. The flaws and mistakes that would lead to them losing were all properly set up ahead of time and made plenty of sense (for Gundam anyway).
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Feb 11, 2014 11:10
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paragon1 posted:I really think the complaint that the brothers lost just because the plot demanded it is unfair. The brothers might have won if they'd withdrawn to do more planning once they realized their trap didn't work. Or even if they simply hadn't gone in to finish the job with their main unit. Instead they got tunnel vision and became overly aggressive, essentially throwing strategy to the wind. They lost because they let their aggression and their disdain for their opponent get the better of them. And they still almost won. The flaws and mistakes that would lead to them losing were all properly set up ahead of time and made plenty of sense (for Gundam anyway). "The brothers would have won if they hadn't done things that made them lose" is a pretty unfair complaint because it works exactly the same in reverse. Honestly, the people complaining that (x character didn't win) just seem silly. Characters have to lose. Not every character who tries hard or has a sympathetic backstory is going to win and losing isn't the end of the world. It's half the premise of the show that people can try super hard because nothing that is happening is particularly important. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 11:50
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ImpAtom posted:"The brothers would have won if they hadn't done things that made them lose" is a pretty unfair complaint because it works exactly the same in reverse. Honestly, the people complaining that (x character didn't win) just seem silly. Characters have to lose. Not every character who tries hard or has a sympathetic backstory is going to win and losing isn't the end of the world. It's half the premise of the show that people can try super hard because nothing that is happening is particularly important. I never really understand complaints that boil down to "Well it's pointless to watch because you know who's going to win" or "He lost because the plot demanded that he lose". So what? Who cares? I'm infinitely more interested in the means than the end. I knew Domon was going to beat Master Asia, I knew Luke was going to become a Jedi and beat the Emperor, and I knew that Batman was going to beat the Joker. What actually matters is how it happens, and in that regard this show keeps topping itself(with the slight stumble in the Mao episode). Kanos fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 12:22
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BlitzBlast posted:They meant that he was a bratty upstart. Here, let me break it down: Guys, this is exactly what's going on. Nothing the Renato brothers did even remotely implies they've been in a war, they're just dicks. They show enmity simply because they're competitive and they must look down on their enemy. That they go with "spoiled rich kid" is absolutely hilarious to me though, mostly because it's actually a very common feeling around here towards first-worlders. It's realistic! It's also hilarious to me because Gunpla here are absurdly expensive (as is anything imported), which means that they must be in a really good economical situation. If they're shown later to have been in some kind of war, then good for the people that thought so, but I'd say it's the least possible thing right now.
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Feb 11, 2014 14:43
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paragon1 posted:I really think the complaint that the brothers lost just because the plot demanded it is unfair. The brothers might have won if they'd withdrawn to do more planning once they realized their trap didn't work. Or even if they simply hadn't gone in to finish the job with their main unit. Instead they got tunnel vision and became overly aggressive, essentially throwing strategy to the wind. They lost because they let their aggression and their disdain for their opponent get the better of them. And they still almost won. The flaws and mistakes that would lead to them losing were all properly set up ahead of time and made plenty of sense (for Gundam anyway). What battle were you watching? I wish I could watch a show like this and then completely see a different battle than what happened, that'd be double the enjoyment! You felt they should have withdrawn when their bomb tactic failed? The method by which they had dominated the battle, something nobody else has done vs the Meijin was by keeping him on the defensive and off balance, the bombs were just one component. You think they should have abandoned the strategy that was winning and doing what nobody else thus far had accomplished. Even when the bombs failed they didn't panic, and they kept the pressure on with twin beam sabers scoring several hits and basically Yuuki sped away and thats how they scored a hit on his back with a pincer attack with the k9. The Kampfer was weaponless and flopping around using its rockets. They weren't acting any more aggressive than they already had been and if anything they were acting far too cooly and calmly. No tunnel vision. They maintained their strategy. They were moving in for the kill when the Kampfer flopped to the fountain where his weapons dropped and were luckily undamaged in the fall. If they had sent in the K9 first and it got blasted you'd be complaining that they should have went in with the main unit. You know its possible to make no mistakes and still lose. I think thats why people are calling foul and plot armor. They dominated 99% of the battle using superior tactics and were beat because the Kampfer had godlike situational awareness and luck. Blackchamber fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 16:36
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They thought they had the Kampfer on the run, when in fact Yuuki was luring them into a trap. They completely ignored the Kampfer's weapon binder the second they knocked it off of him (it didn't even explode in midair, it just fell off), which was short-sighted and cost them the match. And it's not luck that his weapons were undamaged, remember that all of the Kampfer Amazing's equipment was made by the PPSE works team. Yuuki put his trust in the quality of their work, just like Reiji does in Sei's. I mean yeah, in the end the brothers lost because Yuuki's set to fight Reiji later, but their loss was entirely fair. EDIT: "You've fallen for my trap!" > "No, you've fallen for MY trap!" is pretty much how all good tactical battles end anyways. BlitzBlast fucked around with this message at 17:00 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 16:58
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They definitely let their guard down at the last sec though. With the EXAM system they should have been able to dodge the initial salvo (at least so their suit wasn't completely totalled) and Yuuki wasn't in much position to start adjusting his aim after that.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:11
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Pureauthor posted:They definitely let their guard down at the last sec though. With the EXAM system they should have been able to dodge the initial salvo (at least so their suit wasn't completely totalled) and Yuuki wasn't in much position to start adjusting his aim after that. The EXAM system isn't all-powerful. Even canonically it doesn't mean you're invincible and the BF version obviously doesn't actually give them Newtype-style precognition. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 17:17
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Not counting the usual camera theatrics, they basically had a second after the smoke cloud cleared (Yuuki crashed into the fountain on purpose, he needed the cover) to react. And unfortunately, not everybody has Reiji's godlike reflexes. v v
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Feb 11, 2014 17:19
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Not having god like reflexes may be why they went with a sniper build and/or tactics in the first place.
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Feb 11, 2014 17:32
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Then again they did beat up Meiji in close combat, with a sniper unit vs the god drat Kämpfer. The EXAM system seem to only boost their speed in the first place, which just takes more skill to handle properly. Alright reflexes, all told (they'd probably have beaten Luang in a straight up fight too, if they had to).
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Feb 11, 2014 17:52
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Maybe it got covered and I missed it, maybe it didn't, and maybe it doesn't matter - but how the heck does the battle system decide "this Gunpla possesses an EXAM system"? I hope it's something terrible like they laced the cockpit parts with hot glue and declared "this is the soul of a dead newtype, please simulate accordingly"
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Feb 11, 2014 18:01
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BlitzBlast posted:They thought they had the Kampfer on the run, when in fact Yuuki was luring them into a trap. They completely ignored the Kampfer's weapon binder the second they knocked it off of him (it didn't even explode in midair, it just fell off), which was short-sighted and cost them the match. And it's not luck that his weapons were undamaged, remember that all of the Kampfer Amazing's equipment was made by the PPSE works team. Yuuki put his trust in the quality of their work, just like Reiji does in Sei's. The last weapons binder blew up indirectly during the strain of a saber battle. Such craftsmanship.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:07
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I imagine if you have enough parts from one of the HG Blue Destinies, you qualify. Same way tacking a GN drive onto anything would let you Trans-Am, or including parts from a Nobel means you can go berserker.Blackchamber posted:The last weapons binder blew up indirectly during the strain of a saber battle. Such craftsmanship. Look at that scene again. The Renato brothers were overpowering the Kampfer, and used the opportunity to push their saber to the last binder and destroy it.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:10
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My initial thought was they should've dashed forward to pursue/stab the Kampher when it smashed into the fountain and kicked up smoke. However, crippled as it was, IIRC the Kampher still had one beam saber left (carries one in each hip, yeah?), so that might not've gone well either.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:20
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BlitzBlast posted:I imagine if you have enough parts from one of the HG Blue Destinies, you qualify. Same way tacking a GN drive onto anything would let you Trans-Am, or including parts from a Nobel means you can go berserker. I just did. Negative. They were locked up with sabers and if you see where the damage starts on the binder you will see that they would have had to cut through his shoulder to have hit that spot. In fact the Renatos saber is being directed to the Kampfers left side not to the right where the binder is.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:21
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Blackchamber posted:I just did. Negative. They were locked up with sabers and if you see where the damage starts on the binder you will see that they would have had to cut through his shoulder to have hit that spot. In fact the Renatos saber is being directed to the Kampfers left side not to the right where the binder is. No, they push their saber forward at the last moment, there's the sound of it impacting and then Yuuki ejects the binder before it explodes. The melting is a bit poorly animated (it literally appears between frames) but it's fairly clear what happens in that shot. The binder is even shown melting which kinda doesn't imply "randomly exploded for no reason." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 18:24
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Originally I thought Meijin sacrificed it as a distraction to break the losing sword lock, but the way Alan goes "Our Last Weapon! " kinda makes that unlikely. It looks almost like something shot it, at which point it automatically popped off to explode. However there was no visible beams or anything. Animation error? Maybe the K9 unit was supposed to have shot it.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:28
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ImpAtom posted:No, they push their saber forward at the last moment, there's the sound of it impacting and then Yuuki ejects the binder before it explodes. The melting is a bit poorly animated (it literally appears between frames) but it's fairly clear what happens in that shot. No. Watch the video frame by frame as I just did 5 times. Renato's green saber never contacts the spot that become damage. Give me a sec since I am work but I'll post some screens.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:28
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Blackchamber posted:No. Watch the video frame by frame as I just did 5 times. Renato's green saber never contacts the spot that become damage. Give me a sec since I am work but I'll post some screens. ... Renato's saber is pink. 
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Feb 11, 2014 18:29
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ImpAtom posted:... Renato's saber is pink. Quit posting until I post my pics please. You are just making yourself looks silly. Edit: in the meantime during that clash you tell me what color the saber is that the Renato's gunpla is holding.  Ok lets look at where the damage on the binder is:  In that fight the Renato's saber is the green blade and the Kampfer's is the fushia one. Where is the blade and its tip in relation to that spot before it becomes damaged? Being pushed back up to this point. Pay attention to where that spot is in relation to the shoulder armor and the blade, as in behind the shoulder that the blade is well above:  So what did cause that damage? My guess is where all that electricity is hitting it here: 
Blackchamber fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 18:34
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Blackchamber posted:Quit posting until I post my pics please. You are just making yourself looks silly. I just watched the scene myself. You know, to take that screenshot. It's fine if it isn't good enough for you but we see the saber being pushed and there is the sound of impact. Your argument is "Yuki's binder suddenly spounted beam damage and exploded for no reason because ????." Edit: Actually, it looks like the color there is an animation mistake. Here they are clashing beforehnad:  Renato's saber changes colors after it cuts away. However during the clash the saber clearly is impacting. I think that shot really is just bad animation. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 18:36
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