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Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice
.

Thoguh fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Aug 10, 2023

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spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

Thoguh posted:

If you can't leave, have no connection with the outside world, and are on call every hour of every day it is very possible.

To be paid for it sure, to actually work it, literally 24 hours a day for 7 days, probably not.

Thoguh
Nov 8, 2002

College Slice
.

Thoguh fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Aug 10, 2023

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

Thoguh posted:

Sorry for not being pedantic enough.

:) FWIW I knew exactly what you meant.

KetTarma
Jul 25, 2003

Suffer not the lobbyist to live.

Corla Plankun posted:

This is not physically possible.

I've done a solid 60 hours straight once before during an audit.
I probably wasn't doing it very well though. I'm sure that I fell asleep at some point at my desk chair but who knows.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

Doghouse posted:

Can anyone tell me about anything about average salaries for mechanical engineers with two years experience? Specifically, my wife is at a big defense firm on the east coast, and has been there for almost 2 years. Her original starting salary was pretty good - mid 60's - but she hasn't gotten a raise and the review period is coming. I'm not sure where exactly to look to get a sense of this.

Here is an article: http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/average-entrylevel-mechanical-engineers-salary-26059.html

Looks like the data is believable. If you figure the average starting to be $56K and you get 3% a year you would figure to be around $60K after 2 years of experience. The article mentions the DC area paying way more though. So she may be making a fair salary and just started off higher to get her to take the job or she could be underpaid. Realistically without a promotion or a defined increase in job responsibilities I wouldn't expect more than a 2% raise.

Another thing to consider is that it seems like a lot of employers are lumping anyone under 5 years experience as the same these days. If she really wants to get a real bump in salary she has to change jobs though. Internally companies will hold you down.

sw0cb
Feb 18, 2007

IratelyBlank posted:

Post them if you have any questions specific to Valencia or UCF's EE program. I did my pre-recs at VCC then transferred to UCF a few years ago and I'm a senior EE undergraduate taking graduate courses and involved in research so I can answer a lot of questions specific to the program.

Is it any good? I'm at VCC finishing up dynamics and electrical networks, still kinda torn between EE and ME, what do you think of the program?

Corla Plankun
May 8, 2007

improve the lives of everyone
Anyone know anything about Gerson Lehrman Group? I'm trying to figure out if they are evil or not before I consider working for them.

resident
Dec 22, 2005

WE WERE ALL UP IN THAT SHIT LIKE A MUTHAFUCKA. IT'S CLEANER THAN A BROKE DICK DOG.

Thoguh posted:

I wouldn't want to work at a place where the baseline expectation was over 40 and coming in weekends. I'm willing to work extra when need be - I've even spent weeks working 24/7 at remote sites with no OT. But if that is the regular expectation then screw that.

I'd say my views align the same way and it hasn't limited my success 5 years into my career.

Popete, if I had to guess I would say you aren't a very social guy at work? Office visibility goes a long way towards outward appearance regardless of the number of hours you actually work. Spitball meaningful ideas during meetings rather than sitting passively (but also avoid throwing out unintelligent poo poo), have some off the cuff conversations with your supervisor, say hi to management level guys in the hallway, or organize a team lunch or happy hour. These are simple ways to show the guys above you that you are excited to be around and not biding your time until your next job. Another thing that might seem petty but will get noticed is checking/responding to email just before bedtime or right after you wake up in the morning.

RedReverend
Feb 15, 2003

Question for those already out of school and working in Power Engineering, or just in general:

I graduate this spring and for the last two years have been working as a Coop Engineer with a utility. During this time I have been doing system modeling, performed arc flash studies on both customer facilities as well as our T&D equipment, completed numerous designs for facility modifications and new services, and represented the engineering department in contributing to numerous projects. I am proficient with AutoCAD, SKM Power Tools, AmpCalc and various other random software.

I have done some research and have found that the starting wage for 0-2 yrs experience in the area is $55-65k. When my offer comes in, I don't believe that they will low-ball me at $55k but I have some slight anxiety about asking for the top of the range, or even pushing for more. I believe that I am worth it, but am not sure how to sell it to my company. I have never had to negotiate on a wage like this before. Are there any tips for me or those in my situation?

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

PM me and I can give you insight on Xcel. I feel that most of the other IOUs are about the same pay wise, adjust for col.

Where did you intern?

Popete
Oct 6, 2009

This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs

Grimey Drawer

resident posted:

I'd say my views align the same way and it hasn't limited my success 5 years into my career.

Popete, if I had to guess I would say you aren't a very social guy at work? Office visibility goes a long way towards outward appearance regardless of the number of hours you actually work. Spitball meaningful ideas during meetings rather than sitting passively (but also avoid throwing out unintelligent poo poo), have some off the cuff conversations with your supervisor, say hi to management level guys in the hallway, or organize a team lunch or happy hour. These are simple ways to show the guys above you that you are excited to be around and not biding your time until your next job. Another thing that might seem petty but will get noticed is checking/responding to email just before bedtime or right after you wake up in the morning.

Actually the total opposite, I consider myself to be a lot more social or at least better at handling social interactions than a lot of other computer engineers/programmers. During my performance interview I received a 5/5 on inter-personal communications, I think I have a pretty good grasp on speaking enough/not too much.

I ended up going out for some beers with my boss last night, we discussed the situation a little more and I'm feeling better about it. I thought about what you guys had said here and I asked him if it meant I was expected to just work more hours. He said that the head of engineering was concerned that when we come down to crunch time on big projects and poo poo just needs to get done that he thinks I won't want to put in the time and stay late or work weekends. This really hasn't been an issue yet which is why I've only been working 40 hours. Like I said I'm fine coming in to get poo poo done and will even enjoy it to a degree, I like engineering I like solving problems. The thing is though I feel like I'm pretty decent and efficient at my job and I've been keeping up with my workload. This new big project (aka my test) will be a lot more responsibility and I have no problem working extra time to get it done. I've already decided I'm just gonna start working 5 hours extra for the next few weeks until the final hiring decision is made. My boss suggested I just try putting in some more hours (like 45 a week) even if I'm not doing that much (he agreed it was kind of bogus cause sometimes you'll just be twiddling your thumbs or feel inefficient working to many hours).

Coming from laid back smaller employer jobs, corporate culture can be weird sometimes.

Popete fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Feb 12, 2014

District Selectman
Jan 22, 2012

by Lowtax

Noctone posted:

How many hours a week do you typically work? It's a really sad reality of the engineering world, but if you aren't working more than 50 middle management types are pretty much going to write you off as a slacker.

I've found that this was true early in my career, but now that I've developed a (positive) reputation, I don't work more than 40 unless it's a serious emergency. Strangely, my career has skyrocketed since I started doing that. You have to show that you're capable when called upon, but not willing to eat poo poo. I think even though management likes the guys that work 50+ hours, they don't necessarily respect them.

antiga
Jan 16, 2013

spwrozek posted:

Here is an article: http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/average-entrylevel-mechanical-engineers-salary-26059.html

Looks like the data is believable. If you figure the average starting to be $56K and you get 3% a year you would figure to be around $60K after 2 years of experience. The article mentions the DC area paying way more though. So she may be making a fair salary and just started off higher to get her to take the job or she could be underpaid. Realistically without a promotion or a defined increase in job responsibilities I wouldn't expect more than a 2% raise.

Another thing to consider is that it seems like a lot of employers are lumping anyone under 5 years experience as the same these days. If she really wants to get a real bump in salary she has to change jobs though. Internally companies will hold you down.

Data point: I am at a F50 defense firm, 2 years experience in greater NYC area. Median for my current position is about $70k as posted by the company. Salary.com says the median is $79 for Engineer II; seems high but who knows. The salary.com number probably includes some people with much higher experience levels but similar title.

EDIT: Salary.com says $94 for an aerospace engineer II with the same inputs, and I know for a fact that is high. Entry level is 60-65 with 3% per year with good performance.

antiga fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Feb 13, 2014

Senor P.
Mar 27, 2006
I MUST TELL YOU HOW PEOPLE CARE ABOUT STUFF I DONT AND BE A COMPLETE CUNT ABOUT IT
I'm thinking of jumping companies and making a slight career change. (Going from being a construction engineer to something else...)

Do any of you guys and gals have experience working with Chevron or Saudi Aramco? I've been reading through reviews on glass door and neither company seems bad, as far as benefits go.

Of course I know some companies seem to be boosting their profiles on glass door quite a bit.

IAMKOREA
Apr 21, 2007
How crazy is it to mention in an interview that you want to enter a field because you have an idea for a product that serves that field and you want to learn more about your future customers needs?

Senor P. posted:

I'm thinking of jumping companies and making a slight career change. (Going from being a construction engineer to something else...)

Do any of you guys and gals have experience working with Chevron or Saudi Aramco? I've been reading through reviews on glass door and neither company seems bad, as far as benefits go.

Of course I know some companies seem to be boosting their profiles on glass door quite a bit.

They're both oil companies, so my guess is amazing. Big oil jobs are great, from what I've seen in little oil.

IAMKOREA fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Feb 17, 2014

CCKeane
Jan 28, 2008

my shit posts don't die, they multiply

IAMKOREA posted:

How crazy is it to mention in an interview that you want to enter a field because you have an idea for a product that serves that field and you want to learn more about your future customers needs?


They're both oil companies, so my guess is amazing. Big oil jobs are great, from what I've seen in little oil.

I'd be wary, because many interviewers tend to see that as you being fast to jump ship, etc.

Sgt. Slobber
May 15, 2011
Cross-posting in the physics help thread

Who here has much experience with taking and logging multiple continuous measurements?

Here at work, we've got a couple of machines that we want to continuously monitor and log data from. Ya know, put some probes and sensors all over them and just record that data 24/7. It’s looking like ~5 separate measurements per machine with three machines. I'm not really sure of the best way to proceed. In my college lab classes we'd typically use a DAQ and Labview, but we don't need something with nearly that level of precision (or cost). For my own hobby projects I've typically just used an Arduino, but I get the feeling that's kind of a slapdash solution for something like this. Do you guys have any suggestions?

resident
Dec 22, 2005

WE WERE ALL UP IN THAT SHIT LIKE A MUTHAFUCKA. IT'S CLEANER THAN A BROKE DICK DOG.

Sgt. Slobber posted:

Cross-posting in the physics help thread

Who here has much experience with taking and logging multiple continuous measurements?

Here at work, we've got a couple of machines that we want to continuously monitor and log data from. Ya know, put some probes and sensors all over them and just record that data 24/7. It’s looking like ~5 separate measurements per machine with three machines. I'm not really sure of the best way to proceed. In my college lab classes we'd typically use a DAQ and Labview, but we don't need something with nearly that level of precision (or cost). For my own hobby projects I've typically just used an Arduino, but I get the feeling that's kind of a slapdash solution for something like this. Do you guys have any suggestions?

What logging rate? Analog output sensors? Do the sensors need amplification?

Without knowing the answers I'd suggest looking into an amp + ADC IC with configurable I2C addresses. If you can find something similar to the INA230 you can have 16 devices connected to an Aardvark I2C Host or write an I2C driver for Arduino.

resident fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Feb 19, 2014

Sgt. Slobber
May 15, 2011

resident posted:

What logging rate? Analog output sensors? Do the sensors need amplification?

Two analog output sensors that really only need to be sampled once every 10 minutes (right now we have some techs writing it down).
One analog output sensor at about 1 Hz (could probably go as low as 0.1 Hz).
Two digital outputs at 1 Hz.
No amplification needed.

resident
Dec 22, 2005

WE WERE ALL UP IN THAT SHIT LIKE A MUTHAFUCKA. IT'S CLEANER THAN A BROKE DICK DOG.

Sgt. Slobber posted:

Two analog output sensors that really only need to be sampled once every 10 minutes (right now we have some techs writing it down).
One analog output sensor at about 1 Hz (could probably go as low as 0.1 Hz).
Two digital outputs at 1 Hz.
No amplification needed.

The mix of analog and digital kind of complicates things. What type of digital output are we talking?

Sgt. Slobber
May 15, 2011

resident posted:

The mix of analog and digital kind of complicates things. What type of digital output are we talking?

Just valve switches (open or closed). It doesn't really need to sample it at 1 Hz if it can instead be triggered every time is changes (once every few seconds).
If that still really complicates it, there are ways we can work around it.

mitztronic
Jun 17, 2005

mixcloud.com/mitztronic

Senor P. posted:

I gotta agree with Nam Taf here. If you can't handle something like

IAMKOREA posted:

I wouldn't use expressions like that at work, but if that's the worst thing you can think of... Maybe you're being a little too sensitive?

No where did I say I can't handle it. I didn't even hint that I wasn't okay with it. You guys sure are reading into what I said :rolleyes: You don't know where I work so don't tell me I'm working in the wrong place (?? the gently caress?). You don't know what the atmosphere is like, and after working here for over 3 years this is the first time I've had anyone talk like that. It's a very professional and mature work environment. Every single person on my team thought it was highly unprofessional. I don't personally give a poo poo and neither did anyone else. Being 'sensitive' and 'caring' about something and it being unprofessional are two opposite sides of the coin.

Doesn't make it any less professional because you guys work in a different environment. Apples and oranges. People don't talk like that here.

mitztronic fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Feb 19, 2014

resident
Dec 22, 2005

WE WERE ALL UP IN THAT SHIT LIKE A MUTHAFUCKA. IT'S CLEANER THAN A BROKE DICK DOG.

Sgt. Slobber posted:

Just valve switches (open or closed). It doesn't really need to sample it at 1 Hz if it can instead be triggered every time is changes (once every few seconds).
If that still really complicates it, there are ways we can work around it.

What kind of electrical signal comes from the valve switches to relay their state is more specifically what I'm wondering. Is it a serial data structure like CAN, I2C, or SPI or something simpler like reading voltage on a net ie GND=off, VDD=on? If it is the later I don't really see any reason why you'd need something more sophisticated than an Arduino if a 10-bit ADC meets your needs on the analog side. Feel free to PM me if you want to take this out of the thread.

Nam Taf
Jun 25, 2005

I am Fat Man, hear me roar!

Sgt. Slobber posted:

Two analog output sensors that really only need to be sampled once every 10 minutes (right now we have some techs writing it down).
One analog output sensor at about 1 Hz (could probably go as low as 0.1 Hz).
Two digital outputs at 1 Hz.
No amplification needed.

Look at a pre-rolled PIC/Atmel based CAN solution. I'm not sure of one off the top of my head but that's the same system that's used on cars and the like for engine management. The data rate isn't huge but you're not asking for that, and it's robust and small. It should be a pretty simple plug-and-play arrangement with small configuration.

Alternatively if you want to put some dev time into it, you can roll your own. The PIC microcontroller solution consists of the 18F4680 or equivalent (ECAN is what you want) + MCP2502x/5x expanders.

The 18F is the heart of the operations and does all the smarts and the MCPs are 14 pin expanders, designed to suck as little juice as possible and have basic A/D conversion and I/O functionality. You don't even push code onto them but rather just configure with register switching. Their sole job is to pump data on to the CAN bus, do basic operational output (push a signal into a stepper motor, for example) and do any necessary A/D conversion to ditigise it.

These chips are probably out of date - last time I played with them was 2007, so find the newer stuff. All the info about CAN in the Microchip land should be here.

I'm not familiar with the Atmel equivalents, unfortuantely.

KetTarma
Jul 25, 2003

Suffer not the lobbyist to live.
Right now I have a start date for working as a summer design intern at a major aerospace corporation. Yesterday I got a phone call from a local power company wanting to bring me in for an interview for a summer internship. I told them that I already had accepted something else a month prior. They then asked me about the job but I refused to give them salary details. I did ask when they'd be accepting applications for next summer at least but the lady didn't seem to want to talk to me after I said I couldn't tell them about compensation.

Did I handle this correctly? It all happened so fast that I didn't have time to carefully consider what I was going to say :( I'd really like to work at the power company if the aerospace company doesn't pan out.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

I would have done the interview and not mentioned the other offer. If they offered you the job you could look at both and then politely decline as you have another opportunity. Tell them you would be interested next summer though if the position is available again.

You could have at least see what they offer for money.

RogueLemming
Sep 11, 2006

Spinning or Deformed?

KetTarma posted:

Right now I have a start date for working as a summer design intern at a major aerospace corporation. Yesterday I got a phone call from a local power company wanting to bring me in for an interview for a summer internship. I told them that I already had accepted something else a month prior. They then asked me about the job but I refused to give them salary details. I did ask when they'd be accepting applications for next summer at least but the lady didn't seem to want to talk to me after I said I couldn't tell them about compensation.

Did I handle this correctly? It all happened so fast that I didn't have time to carefully consider what I was going to say :( I'd really like to work at the power company if the aerospace company doesn't pan out.

You may have phrased it well or poorly--I don't know--but I agree with your general answer. My personal rule is that if I wouldn't be comfortable saying something in front of multiple parties (the aerospace company and power company), I probably shouldn't say it to any party individually. For their part, if they want to know salary information, they should call the other company. If they don't think it's right to call the other company, it's certainly not right to bully it out of an intern.


spwrozek posted:

I would have done the interview and not mentioned the other offer. If they offered you the job you could look at both and then politely decline as you have another opportunity. Tell them you would be interested next summer though if the position is available again.

My only thought about this would be then it looks like you made them your second choice. Or it could somehow get out he had already accepted an offer and was just running them around. I like the "Sorry, I've already made a commitment and I would like to follow through, but I would be interested in future opportunities" approach.

KetTarma
Jul 25, 2003

Suffer not the lobbyist to live.
I asked them when I could apply for next summer and that I was still interested in working there. The HR lady seemed to be brushing me off after I declined to talk about compensation stuff though.

On the flip side, it's freaking February already. Why are they just now interviewing people? I had already signed my offer letter back in December. Is that abnormal?

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

That is just how the utility world is. We have 2 postings up right now in Denver for interns.

Honestly the reason I would have gone through the process with the power company is in the end it is only an internship and if people can't understand that some people have more than one choice in jobs they are pretty dumb. We turn down jobs all the time, it is just business.

Senor P.
Mar 27, 2006
I MUST TELL YOU HOW PEOPLE CARE ABOUT STUFF I DONT AND BE A COMPLETE CUNT ABOUT IT

KetTarma posted:

I asked them when I could apply for next summer and that I was still interested in working there. The HR lady seemed to be brushing me off after I declined to talk about compensation stuff though.

On the flip side, it's freaking February already. Why are they just now interviewing people? I had already signed my offer letter back in December. Is that abnormal?
Utility companies do all kind of crazy things. I wouldn't worry too much about it. The one I work with right now is just, ugh. But they're a government utility so maybe the private companies are not as bad.

Senor P. fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Feb 23, 2014

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

Senor P, we IOU's are just as bad. It takes forever for anything to get done, hire or fire, promote, etc. Although it is a pretty killer gig, I make way more money than when I was consulting, super flexible hours, work from home, cheap rear end benefits. Not to mention no real travel required (consulting I was fine at least a week a month).

Nam Taf
Jun 25, 2005

I am Fat Man, hear me roar!

Sgt. Slobber posted:

Two analog output sensors that really only need to be sampled once every 10 minutes (right now we have some techs writing it down).
One analog output sensor at about 1 Hz (could probably go as low as 0.1 Hz).
Two digital outputs at 1 Hz.
No amplification needed.

In addendum to my post earlier, I remembered one of the kits that pre-rolls this sort of stuff, that I came across back when I was doing my thesis about 6 years ago. They're a group called Modtronix and although are based in Australia (where I am), ship overseas anyway (and even price in USD) so you're fine to order them if they appeal. They have some boards that do just CAN, and others that do CAN but also have a webserver pre-rolled and an ethernet port, so you literally plug on to your network and grab data off it either directly or via CAN/RS232/etc. Have a poke around, they have some oldschool CAN solutions and some newer Android/Arduino based poo poo I've not seen (because I've not looked at them for 5+ years).

Nam Taf fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Feb 24, 2014

Uncle Jam
Aug 20, 2005

Perfect

KetTarma posted:

Right now I have a start date for working as a summer design intern at a major aerospace corporation. Yesterday I got a phone call from a local power company wanting to bring me in for an interview for a summer internship. I told them that I already had accepted something else a month prior. They then asked me about the job but I refused to give them salary details. I did ask when they'd be accepting applications for next summer at least but the lady didn't seem to want to talk to me after I said I couldn't tell them about compensation.

Did I handle this correctly? It all happened so fast that I didn't have time to carefully consider what I was going to say :( I'd really like to work at the power company if the aerospace company doesn't pan out.

Its weird to just straight up discuss compensation amounts on the phone in the initial phone call, especially other offers. Some utility/power companies are really wacked out, especially on the HR side so I wouldn't worry about it too much, especially if you've got something going.

One of my classmates who was in power gen did an internship at one and ended up driving around counting poles.

French Canadian
Feb 23, 2004

Fluffy cat sensory experience
Is anybody working the AeroDef conference in Long Beach today?

The Chairman
Jun 30, 2003

But you forget, mon ami, that there is evil everywhere under the sun
PE question: I'm sitting for the Civil/Structural PE in April and putting together all my code books. How vital is having the correct year's code, especially if mine are newer? I have AISC 13th, but the other big design standards are ASCE 7-05 and ACI 318-08, while I have copies of ASCE 7-10 and ACI 318-11. Should I go back and buy the previous editions, or are the newer ones going to be sufficient?

Also, do I really need the prestressed or the masonry standards?

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

The Chairman posted:

PE question: I'm sitting for the Civil/Structural PE in April and putting together all my code books. How vital is having the correct year's code, especially if mine are newer? I have AISC 13th, but the other big design standards are ASCE 7-05 and ACI 318-08, while I have copies of ASCE 7-10 and ACI 318-11. Should I go back and buy the previous editions, or are the newer ones going to be sufficient?

Also, do I really need the prestressed or the masonry standards?

I used every single code on the exam in October. It was pretty obnoxious. The ASCE 7-10 is very different from the ASCE 7-05 (especially in the loading maps). I don't believe the ACI 318 has changed much, I used the 05. I needed the masonry and prestressed codes for 2 questions each.

I think I have an electronic version of the masonry and ASCE 7-05 somewhere... if you want me to look... I had the books for the rest.

You will probably be OK with the new codes but it would kind of sick to miss something because the code changes a number or something.

The Chairman
Jun 30, 2003

But you forget, mon ami, that there is evil everywhere under the sun
Work has some electronic copies of the earlier codes I'm missing, so I'm planning on printing them and putting them in binders. Only one I can't find is the masonry code, so I'd appreciate that one.

RogueLemming
Sep 11, 2006

Spinning or Deformed?

The Chairman posted:

PE question: I'm sitting for the Civil/Structural PE in April and putting together all my code books. How vital is having the correct year's code, especially if mine are newer? I have AISC 13th, but the other big design standards are ASCE 7-05 and ACI 318-08, while I have copies of ASCE 7-10 and ACI 318-11. Should I go back and buy the previous editions, or are the newer ones going to be sufficient?

Also, do I really need the prestressed or the masonry standards?

Don't they test using the newest version of the codes?

That's not meant to be rhetorical, I don't know and always just assumed they did. How could they make a licensure test use ASCE 7-05 when states have already begun to adopt the 2012 IBC that requires ASCE 7-10? You'd be licensed in knowledge of outdated codes.

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spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy

RogueLemming posted:

Don't they test using the newest version of the codes?

That's not meant to be rhetorical, I don't know and always just assumed they did. How could they make a licensure test use ASCE 7-05 when states have already begun to adopt the 2012 IBC that requires ASCE 7-10? You'd be licensed in knowledge of outdated codes.

It takes forever to adopt new codes. I mean read what you just wrote, states have already begun... So which ones use 2012 IBC? It is a national exam after all. You also just spent the last 5 years using that older version, quick go learn all the new stuff. Not ideal.

Honestly codes that change every 3-5 years usually change very little. You can take a 2 hour class and basically know what all is different. Sometimes they change a lot though. The ASCE 7 has all new wind maps. The industry I work in had basically decided against using them since we don't design life safety structures. That code came out 4 years ago...

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