|
Magres posted:Jesus christ your dad is a manchild. This falls apart so loving quickly. If John makes a contractual loan to Paul for a thousand bucks, what's he supposed to do if Paul just walks away? He obviously can't initiate in any kind of force. Or are people just suddenly going to stop lying, cheating, and stealing because of libertarian magic? The response I've been given to this when asked is that breaching a contract is technically considered an initiation of force. The thing you have to realize about the ancap definitions of 'force' and 'violence' is that they're completely self-serving and arbitrary. 'Initiation of force' basically means 'anything I don't like'. I've had ancaps argue that literal chattel slavery is perfectly justified as long as someone was convinced to sign a contract at some point, while attempting to start a labor union and organize a workplace is an unjust initiation of force and the owner of that business is justified in using violence in 'self-defense'.
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 14:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 04:30 |
|
|
Swan Oat posted:Gygaxian is your father familiar with Hans-Hermann Hoppe by any chance? Gygaxian read about your dad's golden future! http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/11/journey-into-a-libertarian-future-part-i-%E2%80%93the-vision.html
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 15:10
|
|
|
Magres posted:http://www.churchofsatan.com/satanism-and-objectivism.php My dad believes that if the hypothetical Paul in this situation walks away, then John would spread the news of Paul's misdeeds to everyone in the area, and Paul would quickly not be trusted to fulfill his contracts. And yes, my dad is a bit of a manchild and reddit type. He constantly pines for Washington State (where my family is from), and spits hatred at every aspect of Utah, and does things because HE wants to, not because anyone else told him to (other than his job working for a government contractor to put food on our table). Orange Devil posted:Ofcourse any rational partner in a transaction or contract would want to have these kinds of dispute resolutions in the contract, thus meaning that to participate in literally any way whatsoever in that society your situation would be very, very similar to what it is now. Maybe there wouldn't be income taxes I guess, so abolish the progressive taxes and replace them with regressive sales taxes instead. Libertarianism! Also this, he believes that people don't want to deal with the fees, they will move away to somewhere that doesn't have the fees. Swan Oat posted:Gygaxian is your father familiar with Hans-Hermann Hoppe by any chance? When I've talked to him, he's never mentioned that, but he might have heard of him with his endless listening to libertarian/ancap podcasts (literally, when he takes naps, he falls asleep listening to them), or his browsing of Lew Rockwell's site. Mister Bates posted:The response I've been given to this when asked is that breaching a contract is technically considered an initiation of force. The thing you have to realize about the ancap definitions of 'force' and 'violence' is that they're completely self-serving and arbitrary. 'Initiation of force' basically means 'anything I don't like'. I've had ancaps argue that literal chattel slavery is perfectly justified as long as someone was convinced to sign a contract at some point, while attempting to start a labor union and organize a workplace is an unjust initiation of force and the owner of that business is justified in using violence in 'self-defense'. Again, right on the money. As long as there is no initiation of force, and the individuals in question agreed that one would serve in chattel slavery, it is not slavery by definition. However, taxes are. He also has an irrational hatred of unions and the minimum wage, and constantly brings up the "fact" that if the minimum wage was smaller (or didn't exist), then mentally disabled people could get a job. He seems to believe that labor is the vast majority of all costs, and that raising the minimum wage (and having a min wage in the first place) costs jobs.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 18:34
|
|
|
A totalitarian communist talks about how he'd fix the government if he was president. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=740189265991529
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 20:02
|
|
|
Gygaxian posted:My dad believes that if the hypothetical Paul in this situation walks away, then John would spread the news of Paul's misdeeds to everyone in the area, and Paul would quickly not be trusted to fulfill his contracts. So what happens when Paul changes his name to Bob and gets cosmetic surgery? Or what happens when Paul moves two states over and nobody here has heard of his misdeeds?
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 22:59
|
|
|
Why the gently caress should I believe John's stories anyway?
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 23:13
|
|
|
Also how the hell does John's stories help Freddy who doesn't know John but is looking to do business with Paul. The answer is the entire thing is designed as a scam.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 23:25
|
|
|
Gygaxian posted:My dad believes that if the hypothetical Paul in this situation walks away, then John would spread the news of Paul's misdeeds to everyone in the area, and Paul would quickly not be trusted to fulfill his contracts. Ugh an-caps are just such shits E: oh right the signee should have thought of that, read through the (probably huge) contract, and demanded revisions to that effect while they were so starving they were willing to sell their freedom for their survival! How silly of me. At least no one was forced or coerced! DarkHorse fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Feb 12, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 23:41
|
|
|
Gygaxian, I will actually say that I can, if not respect, not actively totally laugh at your Dad's worldview because it is internally consistent. I value internal consistency in an argument a lot, even if their starting principles are dumb, because to me it's indicative of that person actually arguing in good faith and I value arguments in good faith and honesty a lot. The idea that everyone's just going to play nice is dumb, but if you accept that as a basic axiom for forming a worldview then the rest of it follows well enough
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 23:41
|
|
|
DarkHorse posted:where does he fall on slavery? What if someone sells themselves into slavery, and the owner transfers the contract to another (or dies and is passed to another, or...) to whom the signee didn't want? How do you even keep that enforced? Say I sell myself into slavery for 1000 dollars then just say gently caress you I'm gone. How do you keep me there without "violence". It's not like there's going to be a lot of references to say if I'm a good slave.
|
|
#
?
Feb 12, 2014 23:48
|
|
|
Twelve by Pies posted:So what happens when Paul changes his name to Bob and gets cosmetic surgery? Or what happens when Paul uses his wealth from this scam to spread the word that he's trustworthy and actually it's the other guy who ripped him off? Gygaxian posted:And yes, my dad is a bit of a manchild and reddit type. He constantly pines for Washington State (where my family is from), and spits hatred at every aspect of Utah, and does things because HE wants to, not because anyone else told him to (other than his job working for a government contractor to put food on our table). If you really want to try to change your dad's mind, this is probably your only way in. If he feels unhappy with his life, but forced to make these choices in order to survive and provide for his family, that's a potential source of cognitive dissonance. He will try to relieve this by insisting that all his problems were caused by ~*~Government Force~*~, but there's a chance that you could hammer home the idea that some people are forced into making bad "decisions" by things outside of their control.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 00:10
|
|
|
 
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 00:41
|
|
|
Respect for those that have the ability to harm you with no fear of repercussion maybe.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 00:44
|
|
|
"I was spanked, and now I'm an adult who spends time advocating hurting children!"
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 01:03
|
|
|
So my sister posted this on Facebook today: I said, "Yeah, I totally agree. We should have a single payer healthcare system ASAP." Unsurprisingly, she hasn't responded to that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 01:17
|
|
|
1stGear posted:A totalitarian communist talks about how he'd fix the government if he was president. I got about 3 minutes in until the "Birth control ladies!" I'm assuming this is the kind of guy that would only want abstinence only education.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 01:22
|
|
|
My boss spanked me as an intern. As a result I My friends spanked me as a high schooler. As a result I
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 01:37
|
|
|
TinFoilJoy posted:So my sister posted this on Facebook today: Link her his wikipedia page, he seems to say poo poo and then deny it the next day. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 02:57
|
|
|
Delaying the whole thing permanently IS the solution.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 03:07
|
|
|
Radish posted:How do you even keep that enforced? Say I sell myself into slavery for 1000 dollars then just say gently caress you I'm gone. How do you keep me there without "violence". It's not like there's going to be a lot of references to say if I'm a good slave. You conveniently define this as initiation of force, because you took the  3 in exchange for fulfilling certain conditions, and then did not fulfill them. Thus the money is not morally yours, and by claiming it merely by physical possession you are initiating force against the true owner* by forcibly preventing him from claiming what is rightfully his."Oh you already spent that $1,000 and don't have it anymore to return to your creditor? Well, that's okay, you can pay it back (along with compound interest) by working for him at an hourly rate fairly determined by his dispute-resolution organization. Of course, since he owns your labor until the debt is fully paid, any attempt by you to leave is initiation of force to be punished accordingly." *Does not apply to a white man holding land stolen from inferior darker-skinned peoples. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 06:24 on Feb 13, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 05:38
|
|
|
happyhippy posted:Link her his wikipedia page, he seems to say poo poo and then deny it the next day. So, like many doctors, he has an ego the size of an oil tanker and has to share his opinion on everything. I've worked with enough doctors to see this way too often. They think they're scientists, statisticians, biologists, health policy wonks, etc. The truth is most doctors don't know much beyond how to cut people open or give people the pills. They certainly don't handle billing or work with the insurance companies, they have people who do that for them. Unfortunately people are listening to him, even though he has no idea what the heck he's talking about when it comes to health policy. As a related anecdote, I left my last position because my boss, an infectious disease specialist, kept refusing to accept any statistical analyses I was doing because, to quote him, "You can't do regression on categorical data."
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 06:44
|
|
|
Rosalind posted:So, like many doctors, he has an ego the size of an oil tanker and has to share his opinion on everything. I've worked with enough doctors to see this way too often. They think they're scientists, statisticians, biologists, health policy wonks, etc. The truth is most doctors don't know much beyond how to cut people open or give people the pills. They certainly don't handle billing or work with the insurance companies, they have people who do that for them. The "It isn't brain surgery/rocket science" meme is the entire basis of the authority he carries.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 09:43
|
|
|
Rosalind posted:So, like many doctors, he has an ego the size of an oil tanker and has to share his opinion on everything. I've worked with enough doctors to see this way too often. They think they're scientists, statisticians, biologists, health policy wonks, etc. The truth is most doctors don't know much beyond how to cut people open or give people the pills. They certainly don't handle billing or work with the insurance companies, they have people who do that for them. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/04/opinion/coates-he-wears-the-mask.html
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 09:56
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 13:29
|
|
|
As ever, the woman is a male sex fantasy while the man is a male power fantasy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:15
|
|
|
There has been commentary and controversy over characters like Heman that not only project unrealistic male body images but also teach that "real men" simply use force as a first, last and only resort. The fact that it's less than Barbie's can be assumed to be written off as middle/high school boys AREN'T loving STARVING THEMSELVES TO DEATH TO LOOK LIKE HIM! In fact, I remember growing up PSAs specifically addressing steroid use to discourage young men from trying to obtain impossible body figures, I don't remember a single one against bulimia, anorexia or other eating disorders.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:22
|
|
|
Isn't he-man the alter-ego of a less manly, less masculine male protagonist who is able to transform between royalty and 'roids at will?
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:25
|
|
|
There's also a difference in the world of Barbie and He-Man. He-Man is a huge muscular prince in a land of magic and purple loving tigers. Barbie lives in a house and buys clothes. I don't know how to construct a argument about this though, because I know just little enough to get myself into trouble.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:30
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:As ever, the woman is a male sex fantasy while the man is a male power fantasy. Obviously you are correct, but there are followup questions. What does a female power fantasy look like? Or a female sex fantasy? Discendo Vox posted:Isn't he-man the alter-ego of a less manly, less masculine male protagonist who is able to transform between royalty and 'roids at will?  He doesn't even change his hair. I think even Superman managed that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:40
|
|
|
sensy v2.0 posted:There's also a difference in the world of Barbie and He-Man. He-Man is a huge muscular prince in a land of magic and purple loving tigers. Barbie lives in a house and buys clothes. I don't know how to construct a argument about this though, because I know just little enough to get myself into trouble. Children know that when they grow up they cannot really be He-Man, while the whole crux of the issue is that it's far less clear to young children that they can't (or rather are unlikely to) grow up to be Barbie.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:44
|
|
|
There is the spray on tan, though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:45
|
|
|
Agents are GO! posted:There is the spray on tan, though. Less civilized = darker skin, obviously.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:49
|
|
|
Discendo Vox posted:Isn't he-man the alter-ego of a less manly, less masculine male protagonist who is able to transform between royalty and 'roids at will? But still more ripped than anyone you know. sensy v2.0 posted:There's also a difference in the world of Barbie and He-Man. He-Man is a huge muscular prince in a land of magic and purple loving tigers. Barbie lives in a house and buys clothes. I don't know how to construct a argument about this though, because I know just little enough to get myself into trouble. I don't know poo poo about poo poo but I don't care how dumb I look so I'll give it a go: Because Barbie lives in a (problem-free, idealized) version of the real world, while He-man does not, it is easier for an audience which identifies with the character to see the character's life and appearance as a goal to be aspired to. Also, since, AFAIK for most of Barbie's existence she hasn't really been a character (barring a few cartoons and video games and math-hating dolls here and there) as such but more a vessel for the imaginations of little girls, it's probably a whole lot easier for a little girl to make their mental image of Barbie's personality a lot more like her's than it is for a little boy to make He-man their own alter-ego. Meanwhile, both Barbie and He-man have equally unattainable and potentially equally unhealthy appearances, which are more or less unchanging; but since He-man isn't your real-world pretend best buddy or pretend self, it's easier to avoid desperately wanting to look like him. edit: f;b. Yeah.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:50
|
|
|
Kegluneq posted:The difference between the two is literally a costume change. C'mon, Adam wears pink! 
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 14:59
|
|
|
He man is a not subtle ripoff of Arnold. While eternia is a fantasy, the body model is real if chemically enhanced.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 16:44
|
|
|
Anubis posted:In fact, I remember growing up PSAs specifically addressing steroid use to discourage young men from trying to obtain impossible body figures, I don't remember a single one against bulimia, anorexia or other eating disorders. Steroid use will wreck the body just as thoroughly as bulima nervosa or anorexia. Both men and women suffer from steroid abuse and eating disorders, in different ratios sure, but they are both being harmed in part by an emphasis on practically unobtainable body shapes constantly pushed by the media. "JAMA Pediatrics" posted:Importance: Relatively little is known about the prevalence of concerns with physique and eating disorders among males and their relation to subsequent adverse outcomes. A broader range of eating disorders needs to be defined to diagnose these illnesses appropriately in males. This doesn't mean that Barbie is harmless or feminism is wrong, of course, just that Barbie is one facet of a larger issue that is not confined to the feminine gender.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 17:33
|
|
|
LeJackal posted:Steroid use will wreck the body just as thoroughly as bulima nervosa or anorexia. Both men and women suffer from steroid abuse and eating disorders, in different ratios sure, but they are both being harmed in part by an emphasis on practically unobtainable body shapes constantly pushed by the media. I don't think he was saying that steroid use was not harmful, but rather that it was the more-likely harmful condition for young males than eating disorders...though these days I wonder if that's still the case.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 17:50
|
|
|
I'm sure that if a bunch of liberals started attacking He-Man they would be applauded for their interest on the well being of boys and not accused of trying to feminize the culture
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 18:03
|
|
|
Is He-man even that popular anymore? This seems like a reach to me.
|
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 18:10
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 15, 2024 04:30 |
|
|
Armyman25 posted:Is He-man even that popular anymore? This seems like a reach to me. It had a revival a few years ago but it's probably not surging right now. I mean frankly it's more talking about a broader social problem than just He-Man and thinking it's just about He-Man is being kind of obtuse. The author probably just picked a figure from their childhood. But Boys ARE given these role models who are buff and teach that you should solve problems with fighting rather than talking. Whether it's He-Man, Power Rangers, Ninja Turtles, whatever the problem is still the same. Interestingly, similar to the Barbie problem girls have, look at Star Wars action figures from the 70s, theyre often a lot more waifish, whereas today theyre significantly more buff, even the same character will have put on some muscle in the past few decades. I mean what we SHOULD take away from that image is "yeah both sexes are being given poor role models", even if that's not what the author intended.
|
|
#
?
Feb 13, 2014 18:20
|
|
