Paradox Grand Strategy: From the Carnival of Lust to the Enlightened Times

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Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

maev posted:

The guys a respected economic historian from a world class institution which was the result of 20 years of research, but please do dismiss it out of hand because it doesn't float your boat or whatever.

I probably don't need to mention that what you said was bad paraphrasing and not really representative of the books main argument.

If you say so. I don't really care who wrote it, I just couldn't let anything asserting that Europeans abandoned violence in the 17th century go without calling it out.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 01:47

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# ? May 30, 2024 03:03

Cantorsdust: Aug 10, 2008; Infinitely many points, but zero length.

I actually like the idea of a difference between an "economy of effort" attitude versus an "industrious" one. (Not going to touch the violent part) It reminds me of a joke:

A wealthy American goes down to the river and finds a poor (insert backwards country here, in my case Romanian) fishing on the side of the banks. The two chat, and the American asks him how long the man spends each day fishing.

"Oh, a few hours. I'm just trying to get enough fish to feed my family."

Perplexed, the American asks, "But why don't you fish for eight hours a day, then sell the rest of the fish at the market. Then you would have more money!"

"And what would I do with the money?"

"Well, then you could buy a boat and catch bigger fish to sell for even more money!"

"And what would I do with that?"

"Then you could buy more boats and hire others to fish for you!"

"And why would I do that?"

"Then you could let them fish for you and you could spend the day doing what you like!"

"Eh," said the (poor countryman), "I already do that."

# ? Feb 13, 2014 01:57

GrossMurpel: Apr 8, 2011

It's funny because Romanians don't know about the existence of luxury goods.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 01:59

maev: Dec 6, 2010; Economically illiterate Tory Boy Bollocks brain.
Keep away from children

Main Paineframe posted:

If you say so. I don't really care who wrote it, I just couldn't let anything asserting that Europeans abandoned violence in the 17th century go without calling it out.

Yeah I know what you mean, the idea that Europeans became pacifists is ridiculous - the thing is that's not what he's saying. He's talking about the rule of law within society, and that acting as a framework to secure investment, savings and productivity from violence and force.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 03:01

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Astro Nut posted:

As another example you can sorta look at on the effects that had, take Axum (or Aksum), the Kingdom that would one day develop into Ethiopia. Originally a through port for western civilisations trading to the East, when the Islamic Kingdoms of the day took control of the middle east, trade between west and east through the red sea pretty much dried up for a while. Add in some climate change and the inability to properly support their civilisation (they were spared in spite of their Christianity for actually having been good hosts to Muslim pilgrims centuries earlier), their status as a power receded (once one of the first nations to print coins) and they basically disappeared off european maps for a long, long time.

They actually recovered pretty decently in the long run as well, before, you know, colonialism kicked in and stuff.

Well, they did shelter Muslim pilgrims, that's true - very early Muslims, during the period of their persecution in Mecca. A charitable soul might say that's why they were spared by the Muslim conquerors; but rarely do geopolitics run on good feelings even within the span of one man's life, much less over the course of centuries.

An alternate explanation is that the Nubians living between Ethiopia and Egypt were extremely skilled warriors & kicked the Muslims' pants off during the initial conquests, at a time when the entire Muslim world stood united as a single, unstoppable force. First in 642:

quote:

'Uqbah ibn Nafi, who later made a great name for himself as the Conqueror of Africa, and led his horse to the Atlantic came in for an unhappy experience in Nubia. In Nubia, no pitched battle was fought. There were only skirmishes and haphazard engagements and in such type of warfare the Nubians excelled at. They were skilful archers and subjected the Muslims to a merciless barrage of arrows. These arrows were aimed at the eyes and in the encounter 250 Muslims lost their eyes. (This seems plausible to me.)

The Nubians were very fast in their movements.[3] The Muslim cavalry was known for its speed and mobility, but it was no match for the Nubian horse riders. The Nubians would strike hard against the Muslims, and then vanish before the Muslims could recover their balance and take counter action. The hit-and-run raids by the Nubians caused considerable damage to the Muslims. 'Uqbah wrote to 'Amr of this state of affairs.[44] He said that the Nubians avoided pitched battle, and in the guerilla tactics that they followed the Muslims suffered badly. 'Uqbah further came to know that Nubia was a very poor land, and there was nothing therein worth fighting for.[[citation needed] (Haha yeah whatever you say) Thereupon 'Amr ordered 'Uqbah to withdraw from Nubia.

Then in 652, which was enough for the Muslims to give in and sign a peace treaty that lasted seven hundred years. (Conveniently also blocking them from expansion into Ethiopia.) As the article notes, it was the first peace treaty an Islamic nation signed, and rather controversial because it prevented the spread of the Caliphate's borders, at a time when they really did seem to have a good shot of literally conquering the world.

This is a little off-topic, but I find this stuff fascinating.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 03:23

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

Everything I know about history I learned from Wikipedia[citation needed]

# ? Feb 13, 2014 03:27

Neorxenawang: Jun 9, 2003

JGBeagle posted:

Don't have to fight the Ethiopians when you gas them all.

I recently had an Oromo dude explain to me how the Italians invading Ethiopia was actually a good thing, you see, because they built roads and concrete buildings and we hate the Amhara and they brought civilization...

It was weird and awkward.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 04:13

Mantis42: Jul 26, 2010

GrossMurpel posted:

The idea of the Earth being a flat plane that still somehow loops around (but not around the poles!) broke my mind.

Actually, if you zoom out far enough the reality becomes clear: Paradox games take place on a serious of infinite flat earths that are linked together side by side. The actions of the inhabitants of these earths are direct mirrors of each other, and so if one were to sail directly west you would end up on the east side of an entirely new plane of existence, while a mirror you would arrive in your own world, thus making it seem as if the planet was being circumnavigated for all intents and purposes.

This is why Paradox will never develop a game set during the space age. For when mankind finally discovers the horrible truth, an infinite number of planets will burn.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 05:37

fuck off Batman: Oct 14, 2013; Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah!

The Nozzle posted:

Actually, if you zoom out far enough the reality becomes clear: Paradox games take place on a serious of infinite flat earths that are linked together side by side. The actions of the inhabitants of these earths are direct mirrors of each other, and so if one were to sail directly west you would end up on the east side of an entirely new plane of existence, while a mirror you would arrive in your own world, thus making it seem as if the planet was being circumnavigated for all intents and purposes.

This is why Paradox will never develop a game set during the space age. For when mankind finally discovers the horrible truth, an infinite number of planets will burn.

So if I imagine four maps at the edge of a cliff..

# ? Feb 13, 2014 05:47

cancelope: Sep 23, 2010; The cops want to search the train

I'd love it if there were a way to build wormholes between provinces in a Paradox game, though you'd need to make it science fiction to justify it and it would probably screw with the AI / pathfinding. Still, literally digging a hole to China...

# ? Feb 13, 2014 06:26

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

asaf posted:

I'd love it if there were a way to build wormholes between provinces in a Paradox game, though you'd need to make it science fiction to justify it and it would probably screw with the AI / pathfinding.

I don't know why it would screw with AI pathfinding, since it just operates on a pretty arbitrary list of connections and distances anyway. If anything, it would probably screw with human pathfinding, as it could easily lead to some counterintuitive paths being the most efficient route.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 06:28

Wolfgang Pauli: Mar 26, 2008; One Three Seven

PittTheElder posted:

Pretty sure pathfinding isn't optimized for speed of travel anyway.

What?

maev posted:

Yeah I know what you mean, the idea that Europeans became pacifists is ridiculous - the thing is that's not what he's saying. He's talking about the rule of law within society, and that acting as a framework to secure investment, savings and productivity from violence and force.

All these things were generally enforced by violence, though. Most property crimes were punishable by death in Britain. Pass a false check? The scaffolds with you. Steal something worth more than a couple shillings? The scaffolds with you. Kill a rabbit in somebody else's woods? The scaffolds with you. One unlucky bastard was even hung for sacrilege. Even if you didn't commit a crime, defaulting on a debt saw you thrown in a veritable dungeon (unless you were an aristocrat, then debtor's prison was somewhat fashionable)

asaf posted:

I'd love it if there were a way to build wormholes between provinces in a Paradox game, though you'd need to make it science fiction to justify it and it would probably screw with the AI / pathfinding. Still, literally digging a hole to China...

The adjacencies file in the map folder exists for this purpose. It's how strait crossings and portages are handled ingame.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 12:11

maev: Dec 6, 2010; Economically illiterate Tory Boy Bollocks brain.
Keep away from children

Oh yes, the law was brutal, violent and unremitting. That the law was referred to as 'capital's bulldog' should give an insight as to why it operated the way it did. I don't think there's any indication that he's trying to say that there was something nice or peaceful about the way it operated, but rather that the things which secured the factors of progress (among other things savings, technological progress, parliamentary law) were protected from arbitrary violence and theft by the state (through the application of violence as punishment) in a way other cultures and areas did not.

The author is quite specific on the how and where he applies this argument in the book and I don't really do it huge justice by flippantly joking about it being a defense of EUIV's westernization system with a single quote, but that's forums for you.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 12:40

GrossMurpel: Apr 8, 2011

The Nozzle posted:

Actually, if you zoom out far enough the reality becomes clear: Paradox games take place on a serious of infinite flat earths that are linked together side by side. The actions of the inhabitants of these earths are direct mirrors of each other, and so if one were to sail directly west you would end up on the east side of an entirely new plane of existence, while a mirror you would arrive in your own world, thus making it seem as if the planet was being circumnavigated for all intents and purposes.

This is why Paradox will never develop a game set during the space age. For when mankind finally discovers the horrible truth, an infinite number of planets will burn.

Paradox please make this game, TIA.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 13:39

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

Farecoal posted:

You're the fascist shithead right?

What a witty and fact laden repartee I have no counter to; you force me to concede my point. :tipshat:

# ? Feb 13, 2014 15:33

shades of blue: Sep 27, 2012

Riso posted:

What a witty and fact laden repartee I have no counter to; you force me to concede my point.

So how do you feel about Muslims again? Especially during the 700-900s.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 18:08

A Tartan Tory: Mar 26, 2010; You call that a shotgun?!

Oh Paradox. :allears:

http://instagram.com/p/kW8dqMA37T/

# ? Feb 13, 2014 18:15

PleasingFungus: Oct 10, 2012; idiot asshole bitch who should fuck off

A Tartan Tory posted:

Oh Paradox.

http://instagram.com/p/kW8dqMA37T/

I love that all of those are actual event choices. (If, ah, somewhat decontextualized.)

# ? Feb 13, 2014 18:18

maev: Dec 6, 2010; Economically illiterate Tory Boy Bollocks brain.
Keep away from children

Sampatrick posted:

So how do you feel about Muslims again? Especially during the 700-900s.

Will him answering this negatively or not prove that he's a literal fascist?

# ? Feb 13, 2014 18:45

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

PleasingFungus posted:

I love that all of those are actual event choices. (If, ah, somewhat decontextualized.)

I want to see the trait gain chances for each of those options.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 18:47

jsoh: Mar 24, 2007; O Muhammad, I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight

Riso being literally a fascist is probably why people would say that he is.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 18:47

YF-23: Feb 17, 2011; My god, it's full of cat!

maev posted:

Will him answering this negatively or not prove that he's a literal fascist?

Even if that doesn't his opinion on certain far-right European parties certainly will, but that's for D&D.

PleasingFungus posted:

I love that all of those are actual event choices. (If, ah, somewhat decontextualized.)

"GIVE IT A GOOD TUMBLE" :allears:

# ? Feb 13, 2014 18:54

Westminster System: Jul 4, 2009

Fascists are good upstanding people. Like Mussolini, what did he ever do wrong? :italy:

# ? Feb 13, 2014 19:02

maev: Dec 6, 2010; Economically illiterate Tory Boy Bollocks brain.
Keep away from children

He made the trains run on time, this made alternate motor transport companies cross.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 19:03

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

I don't support totalitarianism nor corporatism.

Anyway, have you noticed how the word fascism itself has become quite meaningless? It means pretty much anything you don't like these days.

quote:

He made the trains run on time

Once, for foreign journalists, by clearing the railways of any other transport.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 19:03

Westminster System: Jul 4, 2009

maev posted:

He made the trains run on time, this made alternate motor transport companies cross.

I think I may love you.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 19:04

PBJ: Oct 10, 2012; Grimey Drawer

Riso posted:

Funny how the fabled Golden Age of Rome also coincides with rampant piracy, slave raids pretty much everywhere, and violent conquest as a whole.

ftfy

But seriously, pretty much every major civilization in the region, from Rome to the British Empire, relied on these same mechanics to grow and prosper. The Caliphates were simply another cog in the machine, because that's just how empires are built. Did they have some dodgy practices? Yes. Did they contribute immensely to the sum of human tradition? Also, yes.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 19:35

Rogue0071: Dec 8, 2009; Grey Hunter's next target.

asaf posted:

I'd love it if there were a way to build wormholes between provinces in a Paradox game, though you'd need to make it science fiction to justify it and it would probably screw with the AI / pathfinding. Still, literally digging a hole to China...

Playing an old version of CK2+ with Wiz we once discovered a wormhole between the Baleares and Morocco due to a patch that had changed some province IDs. Patter Song's Steppe Wolfe LP also showed off some fun naval ones.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 19:52

Rumda: Nov 4, 2009; Moth Lesbian Comrade

PBJ posted:

ftfy

But seriously, pretty much every major civilization in the region, from Rome to the British Empire, relied on these same mechanics to grow and prosper. The Caliphates were simply another cog in the machine, because that's just how empires are built. Did they have some dodgy practices? Yes. Did they contribute immensely to the sum of human tradition? Also, yes.

Yet we only decry the Europeans just because they're the most recent.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 19:56

Riso: Oct 11, 2008; by merry exmarx

quote:

But seriously, pretty much every major civilization in the region, from Rome to the British Empire, relied on these same mechanics to grow and prosper. The Caliphates were simply another cog in the machine, because that's just how empires are built. Did they have some dodgy practices? Yes. Did they contribute immensely to the sum of human tradition? Also, yes.

1) Rome ended piracy and made the Mediterranean sea safe for everyone
2) they did not attack their religious enemies to with the express purpose to gain slaves
3) their golden age is known as a period of peace and stability, not conquest

Islam would have contributed a lot more to the "sum of human tradition" if they hadn't burned most libraries and killed people for having the wrong religion.

quote:

Yet we only decry the Europeans just because they're the most recent.

You know, in the case of slavery, the most recent would be the Arabs. They also treated their slaves significantly worse than the Europeans.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:01

Lichtenstein: May 31, 2012; It'll make sense, eventually.

Riso posted:

You know, in the case of slavery, the most recent would be the Arabs.

I call bullshit. The Syrian Civil War is totally about States' rights!

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:04

Rogue0071: Dec 8, 2009; Grey Hunter's next target.

Riso posted:

You know, in the case of slavery, the most recent would be the Arabs. They also treated their slaves significantly worse than the Europeans.

So I take it you've never heard of sugar plantations in the Caribbean, then.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:09

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Riso posted:

Christianity would have contributed a lot more to the "sum of human tradition" if they hadn't burned most libraries and killed people for having the wrong religion.

I wonder where a lot of texts for the early 'heretic' christian sects went :shrug:

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:12

Farecoal: Oct 15, 2011; There he go

Riso posted:

I don't support totalitarianism nor corporatism.

Oh, so you're just a regular far-right shithead. Okay.

You said Arabs treated their slaves worse than Europeans :lol:

Farecoal fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Feb 13, 2014

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:13

Strudel Man: May 19, 2003; ROME DID NOT HAVE ROBOTS, FUCKWIT

This no longer has anything to do with Paradox games. Can you guys possibly take it to D&D, or else just drop it, since it's clearly not going to be a remotely productive discussion?

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:14

catlord: Mar 22, 2009; What's on your mind, Axa?

Rogue0071 posted:

Playing an old version of CK2+ with Wiz we once discovered a wormhole between the Baleares and Morocco due to a patch that had changed some province IDs.

I thought it was somewhere deeper in Africa and Poland?

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:17

PBJ: Oct 10, 2012; Grimey Drawer

catlord posted:

I thought it was somewhere deeper in Africa and Poland?

I believe it was somewhere in Mali.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:19

Rogue0071: Dec 8, 2009; Grey Hunter's next target.

catlord posted:

I thought it was somewhere deeper in Africa and Poland?

While there might also have been one of those, I distinctly remember a warp to the Baleares.

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:25

Cowcatcher: Dec 23, 2005; OUR PEOPLE WERE BORN OF THE SKY

Riso posted:

1) Rome ended piracy and made the Mediterranean sea safe for everyone
2) they did not attack their religious enemies to with the express purpose to gain slaves
3) their golden age is known as a period of peace and stability, not conquest

Islam would have contributed a lot more to the "sum of human tradition" if they hadn't burned most libraries and killed people for having the wrong religion.

You know, in the case of slavery, the most recent would be the Arabs. They also treated their slaves significantly worse than the Europeans.

1) If you're thinking about that "Pompey solved piracy" thing, that was achieved locally in the eastern Mediterranean by burning down every port town suspected of harboring pirates. The great War on Piracy was as effective as US policies are today - pirates were back every time there was civil war or instability in Rome
2) No, they attacked everyone with the express purpose to gain slaves, it *is* Rome we're talking about, and they also attacked religious enemies
3) Sure, if you look through your fingers and ignore the annual civil wars and rampant slavery

e: oh poo poo I didn't realize I'm replying to Riso

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:26

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# ? May 30, 2024 03:03

shades of blue: Sep 27, 2012

Please cite your sources, Riso, I'd like to read about all these awful things you say that Muslims did. How do you feel about their contributions to math and science and all that jazz?

# ? Feb 13, 2014 20:32

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