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Uroboros posted:Because Ultramarines are the best, and no can accept this.
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Feb 13, 2014 04:18
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Arquinsiel posted:How about the time Blood Angels and Necrons teamed up to fight 'nids for <reasons> and were bros? I remember that generating some rage when he did the Blood Angel codex. I never read the Blood Angel codex. I can see a temp alliance after they changed the Necrons to actually have personalities, but then again I preferred Necrons when they were simply hate filled machines that wanted to destroy all life. It was nice to have a threat to the Galaxy that was the complete antithesis of chaos. Also, I sat down and spent a couple days reading Ravenor for the first time since my initial reading. I am not one who often rereads books, but these threads make me question my memory. Is Unwerth the Rogue Trader supposed to be a Squat?
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Feb 13, 2014 04:21
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Uroboros posted:Because Ultramarines are the best, and no can accept this. You're forgetting about Draigo.
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Feb 13, 2014 04:32
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Uroboros posted:Because Ultramarines are the best, and no can accept this. I like Maximus, it's a fun concept, but his rules are poo poo.
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Feb 13, 2014 04:41
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So I'm just finishing up The Emperor's Gift and its really not clear to me where the whole ANYONE WHO IS ON A PLANET WITH CHAOS NEEDS TO DIE thing comes from. I know ADB loves being all grimdark and poo poo, but this doesnt square with other big 40K series like Gaunts Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain, where guardsman fight chaos forces left and right without the inquisition or Grey Knights coming in to purge every survivor
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Feb 13, 2014 04:55
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If I had to guess, I'd say that Armageddon happened awhile ago, and they realised that killing soldiers that beat the horrible monsters was probably a bad idea. Getting rid of veteran soldiers who got to be veterans by fighting your worst enemies isn't really smart. They probably just went to a less pro-active "keep an eye on them" response...which actually ties up to how they treat Gaunt's boys when they get back from Gereon. What's more, they might have been a little over-zealous in that case because there was a Primarch involved, and the legends might still have him being a hero or not existing.
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Feb 13, 2014 05:08
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IIRC, they weren't trying to cover up the fact that Chaos exists so much as the fact that Demon Primarchs are a thing. The thing I always wondered was why the Grey Knights have to kill everybody who might have seen them. Couldn't they just paint their armor blue and gray and let anybody who sees them think they're a Space Wolf? Khizan fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 05:17
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In this case, the Imperial citizenry could not be allowed to know that the Emperor had sons who fell to chaos, yeah. Although it isn't too unusual to have IG regiments who's fought with chaos be purged, as well as any citizens involved. Usually it's not an entire planet's population, but there was a daemon primarch involved. I can see how that would get the Inquisition rattled.
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Feb 13, 2014 05:25
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None of the people purged ever saw the demon primarch though, the knights and wolves planned their assault specifically to guarantee that. Plus the book makes it pretty clear that even hearing of the existence of chaos calls for death. Anyway, I guess the ultimate message is that with a few exceptions, most of the inquisition are pants-on-head retarded. Verdict: ADB writes well, but man does he keep creating unlikeable protagonists, which was also why I could get through his Night Lords books.
Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 05:28
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Armageddon was in 444.M41, so it wasn't very far back in 40K history at all. If I had to play Devil's Advocate and justify the Inquisitorial reponse it wouldn't be too hard. There are things out there like artifacts that corrupt you just by looking at them, and one Ruinous Power that likes to manipulate and play the long game. Chaos corruption via memetic transfer seems entirely plausible.
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Feb 13, 2014 05:30
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It would make more sense for it to just be exposure to Chaos in general rather than a Daemon Primarch, because how would a random Imperial citizen looking at Angron's physical form have any idea that the dude was originally one of the Emperor's sons? I would think that, lacking all context, you'd just go 'really big daemon.' The dude doesn't wear a nametag, does he?
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Feb 13, 2014 05:36
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PantsOptional posted:Armageddon was in 444.M41, so it wasn't very far back in 40K history at all. If I had to play Devil's Advocate and justify the Inquisitorial reponse it wouldn't be too hard. There are things out there like artifacts that corrupt you just by looking at them, and one Ruinous Power that likes to manipulate and play the long game. Chaos corruption via memetic transfer seems entirely plausible. Yes but the wolves went to great length to keep the population and most guardsmen from ever seeing the chaos forces. So instead of actually sorting through the population and purging selectively, the inquisition chooses to kill billions of civilians and millions of trained guardsmen, virus-bomb multiple human planets rendering them uninhabitable, destroy countless ships, and gets hundreds of space marines killed, nearly starting a new civil war. All because they couldnt be arsed to do a job carefully in the first place. However you look at it the inquisition acted incompetently, bordering on insanity. They basically did as much if not more damage to the Imperium than Abaddon with one of his average crusades.
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Feb 13, 2014 05:39
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Honestly, I wouldn't be that surprised if it turned out global-scale purges weren't standard policy and Kysnaros purged Armageddon just to provoke poo poo with the Space Wolves as part of some plan to weaken the autonomy of the Astartes. It's the kind of "declare Exterminatus due to misfiled paperwork" kind of thing that would be 40k as hell.
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Feb 13, 2014 06:03
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Mr.48 posted:So I'm just finishing up The Emperor's Gift and its really not clear to me where the whole ANYONE WHO IS ON A PLANET WITH CHAOS NEEDS TO DIE thing comes from. I know ADB loves being all grimdark and poo poo, but this doesnt square with other big 40K series like Gaunts Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain, where guardsman fight chaos forces left and right without the inquisition or Grey Knights coming in to purge every survivor It does however square with the backstory of Armageddon, which came out in 1992, well before the other series you mention. It also pops p int he 5th edition codex for Space Wolves and Grey Knights from 2009 and 2011 respectively. It's a Matt Ward thing, not ADB thing
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Feb 13, 2014 06:07
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While ADB writing the Emperor's Gift, Matt Ward rewrote their fluff. I can't even imagine the headache ADB had that day.
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Feb 13, 2014 09:19
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That stuff was before Matt Ward ever wrote for GW. I've got a WD from around '02-'03 that goes into the First War and the purge is mentioned there as well. As far as the treatment of the IG goes, I always just assumed it differed based on the regiment/situation. A bunch of farmers from Kansas IV get the axe after they see demons while forces involved in ongoing campaigns against Chaos (like the Tanith) or who constantly deal with it (Cadians) get a little more leeway. Besides, they aren't likely to live long enough to travel and spread the word.
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Feb 13, 2014 09:23
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I think they make a pretty strong differential between Chaotic and Daemonic. Blowing away some cultists or even a few Chaos Marines is one thing. Going head to head with a Lord of Change is quite another. Also, the people on Armageddon during the first war had seen a Daemon Primarch which is orders of magnitude worse than even a Greater Daemon.
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Feb 13, 2014 09:28
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I totally agree, but the fluff is so inconsistent that there's plenty of differing stories. As always, the answer is "stop reading into it too much"
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Feb 13, 2014 09:36
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One Legged Cat posted:In this case, the Imperial citizenry could not be allowed to know that the Emperor had sons who fell to chaos, yeah. Although it isn't too unusual to have IG regiments who's fought with chaos be purged, as well as any citizens involved. Usually it's not an entire planet's population, but there was a daemon primarch involved. I can see how that would get the Inquisition rattled. This is one fo those fluff things that I wish was more consistent. In Pariah, Bequin calms herself by reciting a child's nursery rhyme that sings about the great heresy and the blessed primarchs "the nine who stood and the nine who turned". I know the imperiums is pants shittingly vast and methods may vary across sectors, but it was a bit of a jolt after reading a story where they burn entire planets to cover up knowledge of the fallen primarchs.
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Feb 13, 2014 11:15
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The origins of the whole "everyone who sees daemons dies" fluff is really old, specifically it appears in the Realms of Chaos: Slave to Darkness book, published in 1988, p. 247 in the Ordo Malleus & Grey Knights section, which is quite worthy of a read. In truth, it doesn't speak about civillians, but if it says that any troops are expendable, except Astartes which are only "mindscrubbed", so this formed the basic fluff about the Grey Knights that was later expanded in that article about the First War for Armaggedon in 1992.
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Feb 13, 2014 12:38
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Dog_Meat posted:This is one fo those fluff things that I wish was more consistent. In Pariah, Bequin calms herself by reciting a child's nursery rhyme that sings about the great heresy and the blessed primarchs "the nine who stood and the nine who turned". I know the imperiums is pants shittingly vast and methods may vary across sectors, but it was a bit of a jolt after reading a story where they burn entire planets to cover up knowledge of the fallen primarchs. One thing you need to remember is that Bequin basically grew up in a Cognitae orphanage. It is safe to say that she is not representative of the Imperium as a whole.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:37
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I don't know, I think it was ADB's way of bridging the old treatment of Guardsmen/citizen with the new way. Also, didn't ADB say at one point that Ward was trying to to get him to include a Dreadknight in the novel? As I recall his answer could be summed up as "lol, nope".
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Feb 13, 2014 17:17
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Shroud posted:Also, didn't ADB say at one point that Ward was trying to to get him to include a Dreadknight in the novel? As I recall his answer could be summed up as "lol, nope". Considering there was/is a trend among BL books to include the next major kit in their stories regardless of how ill-fitting it may be I'm just gonna believe that story. For example, I recall hearing an review about the Ahriman books or some other book involving CSMs that Stormravens suddenly got mentioned out of the blue as well as mention of the newer Dreadnought model. Not to mention that Traitor General has the mention of the Hades drill. Even if it does fit a lot better there. That makes me wonder if the next IG codex is going to borrow stuff from that book considering Abnett starts slinging around terms like lasrifleman and such in it.
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Feb 13, 2014 17:45
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VanSandman posted:While ADB writing the Emperor's Gift, Matt Ward rewrote their fluff.
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Feb 13, 2014 18:19
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Arquinsiel posted:Yes you can, he wrote about it in rather well veiled scathing terms on his blog. Link? I can't find anything on his blog about that.
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Feb 13, 2014 18:25
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UberJumper posted:Link? I can't find anything on his blog about that. http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/questions-answered/
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Feb 13, 2014 18:32
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"It affected my work “a lot”, in that I had to trash a lot of it. That hurt, but it comes with the territory. I wasn’t even annoyed, just pretty demoralised for a while. It also meant that instead of writing a duology, I decided to do just the one novel, and move on to another project." Basically Matt Ward re-wrote the book and ADB said well gently caress you, you write the next one.
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Feb 13, 2014 18:37
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Hustlin Floh posted:I totally agree, but the fluff is so inconsistent that there's plenty of differing stories. As always, the answer is "stop reading into it too much" That's probably because the Imperium itself is, by its very size, vastly inconsistent as well. It really comes down to the beliefs of any given Inquisitor and, indeed, where they are in their career. The careers of Gregor Eisenhorn, and Quixos before him, shows how one's opinions can change over the course of centuries of Imperial service. So if you get some newbie prick of an Inquisitor who's all puritan-ed up and full of righteous by-the-book fire, then yeah, your world's gonna burn. If you get a more veteran and tolerant one? Maybe only the people who actually saw the daemon get quietly snuffed and the rest gets covered by a good propaganda campaign. And if you get a whacked out radical who's sure he's going to be the one who can "use Chaos to fight Chaos" then whoops, there goes the entire southern continent. Hope you didn't have relatives there. It's like when you were back in school and some kids got the easy math teacher, and some got the hard-rear end. Only, like a billion times worse and which math teacher you get decides whether you and everyone you ever met lives or dies in nuclear fire. Which is pretty much what the Imperium deserves for giving planet-killing authority to a bunch of religious fanatics and then telling them to go off and fight the most corrupting force in the galaxy!
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Feb 13, 2014 18:43
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Found this little gem on ADB's blog:
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Feb 13, 2014 19:46
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Shroud posted:Found this little gem on ADB's blog: Is that supposed to be Talos? Edit: Thanks, I honestly thought Night Haunter would be a little more grizzly-looking or something. \/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Immanentized fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 19:51
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handbanana125 posted:Is that supposed to be Talos? Konrad Curze
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Feb 13, 2014 20:05
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It's Konrad Curze. Anyways, some news, a new HH book has been announced on the BL blog, it's called "Shattered Legions" by David Anneadale, that guy who wrote the Yarrick novella. It's coming out in July apparently. So pretty soon after "The Vengeful Sprit" in March I believe.
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Feb 13, 2014 20:16
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Shroud posted:Konrad Curze Is he holding a raven's feather?
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Feb 13, 2014 22:07
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Hustlin Floh posted:I totally agree, but the fluff is so inconsistent that there's plenty of differing stories. As always, the answer is "stop reading into it too much" With a universe as big as 40k and with how many writers BL has, this is kind of a given.
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Feb 13, 2014 22:11
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MariusLecter posted:Is he holding a raven's feather? Probably Corax's. They didn't like each other because they both used the same lightning claw and jump pack gimmick.
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Feb 13, 2014 22:44
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KramFoot posted:It's Konrad Curze. "The Damnation of Pythos", not "Shattered Legions". It is about the shattered legions, not titled after them. Covers Here
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Feb 13, 2014 23:47
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Fried Chicken posted:"The Damnation of Pythos", not "Shattered Legions". It is about the shattered legions, not titled after them. Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard fighting space dinosaurs? 
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Feb 14, 2014 00:28
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Angry Lobster posted:The origins of the whole "everyone who sees daemons dies" fluff is really old, specifically it appears in the Realms of Chaos: Slave to Darkness book, published in 1988, p. 247 in the Ordo Malleus & Grey Knights section, which is quite worthy of a read. In truth, it doesn't speak about civillians, but if it says that any troops are expendable, except Astartes which are only "mindscrubbed", so this formed the basic fluff about the Grey Knights that was later expanded in that article about the First War for Armaggedon in 1992. It was in Inquisition War too (1990), when two Inquisitors debated sending the Grey Knights in after another chapter had already started fighting and mentioned how non-Grey Knight Space Marines were too valuable to kill but if they encountered the forces of chaos they could simply mind-scrub them. Obviously murdering the poo poo out of anyone tangentially exposed to Chaos is ultimately self defeating because by now every time Abaddon storms through systems and gets beaten back, having the Inquisition go ahead and exterminatus every planet the IG fought Chaos on gives him a win. Plus, Cadians must know they are the front line to the Eye of Terror and probably fight off Chaos incursions every few centuries or so. It's just one of those super grimdark things that doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, like so much of the setting.
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Feb 14, 2014 01:14
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pentyne posted:It was in Inquisition War too (1990), when two Inquisitors debated sending the Grey Knights in after another chapter had already started fighting and mentioned how non-Grey Knight Space Marines were too valuable to kill but if they encountered the forces of chaos they could simply mind-scrub them. Not chaos-aligned forces, not mutated humans/astartes, but actual materialized daemons. It is extremely rare for one to appear, and a full daemon incursion is about the worst case scenario for the agencies that deal with that threat - whatever propitiated it in the first place is often unknown and enough of a threat that I'd agree extreme measures are in order to mitigate the risk of secondary contamination. The issue with the Armageddon war is that the inquisition called for the elimination of the entire populace, despite and in opposition of the Wolves' efforts to contain exposure.
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Feb 14, 2014 02:01
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Improbable Lobster posted:Iron Hands, Salamanders and Raven Guard fighting space dinosaurs? The only logical conclusion.
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Feb 14, 2014 02:45
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