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I'm not sure it's constructive to paint all conspiracy theorists as mentally ill in one broad stroke. Surely, they are a subset (and probably a larger one). However, I really liked what Noam Chomsky has said about conspiracy theory, that it is a symptom of the lack of transparency citizens in a democracy are forced to deal with. Without an absence of concrete information, the need to let the human brain do its thing and fill in the blanks would be severely hampered. Couple that with the horrendous things that have actually happened at the hand of some organizations, and the exponential way that technology is accelerating, and it seems rather logical that a large section of people are paranoid and do not trust the power structures that exist. Frustrating as hell when it gets super crazy or stated as fact in the face of actual facts, but way more understandable than you guys seem to think.
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Feb 10, 2014 00:19
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All Else Failed posted:I'm not sure it's constructive to paint all conspiracy theorists as mentally ill in one broad stroke. Surely, they are a subset (and probably a larger one). However, I really liked what Noam Chomsky has said about conspiracy theory, that it is a symptom of the lack of transparency citizens in a democracy are forced to deal with. Without an absence of concrete information, the need to let the human brain do its thing and fill in the blanks would be severely hampered. Lack of concrete information has been the norm for all of human history though (arguably it still is - ask a random person whether a genuine forensic report looks accurate and they probably won't know). We've also had conspiracy theories long before any exponential technological increase (the obvious example is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion but pick any religious apocalypse movement).
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Feb 10, 2014 01:41
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twistedmentat posted:Something I've recently learned is a lot of Crytozoology that gets done these days is heavily supported by Creationists. They seem to think science is going to come crumbling down if someone finds big foot or a dinosaur in the congo. Rich Christians dump tons of money into hair brained expeditions looking for this stuff as if they can throw money at it and tear down evolution. There's a ton of lovely websites out there with "proof" of these things (read: anything from vague rock art to rotting shark carcasses to known hoaxes), which would disprove the theory of evolution because reasons 
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Feb 10, 2014 02:29
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If evolution is real than how come Mokele-mbembe ? 
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Feb 10, 2014 02:54
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KomradeX posted:So what's the point of TWA Flight 800 conspiracy theories? I was watching a documentary about it since I remember when that happened. But I can't figure out why the FBI I would cover up a terrorist attack? (Note I do not believe it was a terrorist attack that brought down Flight 800)
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Feb 10, 2014 02:55
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CSM posted:Well, one thing I've learned from watching the 9/11 conspiracy theorists is that the conspiracy never stops. Some big overarching theory of how the government bought off Al Qaeda to execute 9/11 isn't just enough. That's way too easy. No, no, there's a conspiracy behind every single detail. The government is always lying. So it wasn't a plane that hit the Pentagon, it was a missile. Light poles were hit over? Oh, that's simple, they planted explosives at the bases. They found DNA of the passengers? Obviously planted. Flight recorders? Faked. Eyewitnesses? Government agents. What about that person who photographed a smoke plume of the U93 crash? Well, did you look at that shape of that smoke cloud? Obviously Photoshopped. That person who took the picture? Government agent. And what about building 7, did you know the BBC announced the collapse before it happened? More government agents. And really, a plane brought down the WTC? It was obviously mini nukes (actual theory), there's no way a normal collapse could cause 'pyroclastic clouds' like that. Hey, don't listen to the government shill who said it was mini nukes, it was obviously space lasers from satellites (another actual theory), just look at at how the WTC bath tub was unharmed, every layman can see with his own eyes, and on and on and on... Once you've drowned yourself in that many details, everyone is in on the conspiracy, even the people claiming that there's a conspiracy.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:33
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computer parts posted:Lack of concrete information has been the norm for all of human history though (arguably it still is - ask a random person whether a genuine forensic report looks accurate and they probably won't know). Arguably we've had conspiracy theories for all of human history as well. "The village across the lake has an evil sorcerer who is making our village sick" is basically a conspiracy theory and anthropologists find those sorts of utterances in tribal societies all around the world. Take papuan canibals. One of the odd things about them, is that when anthropologists go looking for them, various tribes will insist their enemies are canibals, but none of the tribes will fess up to being canibals themselves. Probably because they are not. Its easy to turn suspicion into paranoia and paranoia into straight out nonsense. And once the nonsense starts to circulate its even easier to just believe the nonsense.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:12
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People hate the unexplained, so they will want to fill that mystery with something. In the past it was something based on their cultural traditions because they were limited in the information they had. Now we actually have the information for many things, but because of a (not unwarranted) distrust of all sources of information and authority, tend to reject the offical story and insert something that fits with our world view. And yes, that skepticism is well deserved, but people fail to understand true skepticism. The whole "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". For 9/11 we have extraordinary proof for the offical story; laptops belonging to the hijackers were found and had the whole plan on it; phonecalls from the planes and other things that confirm the offical story. A true, scientific skeptic would go "the evidence says that the offical story is the one that makes sense". The bad skeptic rejects everything because it confirms the hated offical story; the government lies to us about everything, therefor anything that contradicts the offical story is true, even if it contradicts each other! There was a really good primer I saw years ago on how to deal with a person who is a truther. You simply confront them with other theories. If they think it was cruise missiles made up to look like planes, say "I heard it was thermite and the planes were holograms" to simply make them think about their position. Truthers become defensive when you just straight up throw the facts of the thing and the debunking articles.
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Feb 10, 2014 07:58
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CSM posted:Well, one thing I've learned from watching the 9/11 conspiracy theorists is that the conspiracy never stops. Some big overarching theory of how the government bought off Al Qaeda to execute 9/11 isn't just enough. That's way too easy. No, no, there's a conspiracy behind every single detail. The government is always lying. So it wasn't a plane that hit the Pentagon, it was a missile. Light poles were hit over? Oh, that's simple, they planted explosives at the bases. They found DNA of the passengers? Obviously planted. Flight recorders? Faked. Eyewitnesses? Government agents. What about that person who photographed a smoke plume of the U93 crash? Well, did you look at that shape of that smoke cloud? Obviously Photoshopped. That person who took the picture? Government agent. And what about building 7, did you know the BBC announced the collapse before it happened? More government agents. And really, a plane brought down the WTC? It was obviously mini nukes (actual theory), there's no way a normal collapse could cause 'pyroclastic clouds' like that. Hey, don't listen to the government shill who said it was mini nukes, it was obviously space lasers from satellites (another actual theory), just look at at how the WTC bath tub was unharmed, every layman can see with his own eyes, and on and on and on... What I find really fascinating is that the "space satellite laser weapon" theory is by far the most plausible out of all the conspiracy theories. Says alot, doesn't it? Grouchy Smurf fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 10:02
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Jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough to melt steel! But the chemtrail chemicals the planes were carrying thousands of gallons of...
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Feb 10, 2014 15:06
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Look at all the sheeple being dusted with thermite. Spontaneous combustion now makes sense.
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Feb 10, 2014 15:51
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Sometimes I will sit around and watch conspiracy videos on YouTube, and I had this pop up in my recommended videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFupvgP6Dog An educational song about chemtrails! It actually features the lyrics "I'm not crazy, I swear!"
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Feb 10, 2014 16:14
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fermun posted:Sometimes I will sit around and watch conspiracy videos on YouTube, and I had this pop up in my recommended videos. Ha! I'm actually glad to find someone else admit to this. This song is more catchy than I wish it was. I sure hope I'm enjoying it ironically. I bet the chemtrail pilots crank this in their cockpits during their evil chemtrail release flights. "I'm not crazy I swear!" and then they high five each other. Not to get too distracted by this American hero, but have you looked him up at all? I found this: http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/GianlucaZanna I guess it's your stereotypical crazy/patriotic American profile but I loved this: quote:June 25 2005 Baldwin Park California I believe it.
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Feb 11, 2014 03:02
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So , apparently the real Byzantine Emperor is living in America, and his capital is San Fransisco, 23rd Rome, Envy of the World! This is certainly a unique conspiracy. http://www.new-byzantium.org/index.html quote:The highest mission of New Byzantium is that all the Americas: English, Portuguese, Frankish, and especially Spanish need to cooperate with full mutual deference and respect, consistent with the spirit of the New Era, comprehension, understanding, and fraternal communication, according to the prophetic divine inspiration of the Supreme prelate of the Order of Constantine the Great, Dr. Mark Athanasios C. Karras. Thus, the Americas of the New World, following the guiding example of Byzantium, the mythical and exemplary city of Greece and Rome, of the Latin and Greek languages, in the ensuing XXI Century, will come to know each other and above all MEET IN DUE FORm.
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Feb 11, 2014 03:20
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Isn't Spain equally the daughter of the caliphate? The Alhambra ain't exactly Greco-Roman.
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Feb 11, 2014 04:19
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There's only one motherfucking Emperor in San Francisco.
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Feb 11, 2014 04:27
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This is just sad. quote:Above is copy of an envelope returned to the sender and held unopened with content intact since the 1960s. Note the angry and violent markings and commentary typical
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Feb 11, 2014 05:08
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You might as well be angry that your letter to Boss Tweed in Tamanny Hall in New Amsterdam got rejected.
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Feb 11, 2014 05:20
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I'm pretty sure Greece and Rome are real and not "mythical."
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Feb 11, 2014 15:46
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I am Greek and I have no idea what you guys are talking about.
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Feb 11, 2014 19:00
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Grouchy Smurf posted:I am Greek and I have no idea what you guys are talking about. This will explain Sedan Chair's joke. In San Francisco. You salute the emperor.
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Feb 12, 2014 02:41
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Nckdictator posted:So , apparently the real Byzantine Emperor is living in America, and his capital is San Fransisco, 23rd Rome, Envy of the World! This is certainly a unique conspiracy. I think someone got broken by a Byzantium game in EUIV. 
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Feb 12, 2014 02:44
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All Else Failed posted:I'm not sure it's constructive to paint all conspiracy theorists as mentally ill in one broad stroke. Surely, they are a subset (and probably a larger one). However, I really liked what Noam Chomsky has said about conspiracy theory, that it is a symptom of the lack of transparency citizens in a democracy are forced to deal with. Without an absence of concrete information, the need to let the human brain do its thing and fill in the blanks would be severely hampered. Lack of transparency has nothing to do with conspiracy theories by and large, it is people who just can't accept the world as it is and so this other thing that fits their worldview must be right (see: Birthers). There's conspiracies about the loving moon landing. Even Russia didn't dispute that it happened. During the Cold War. If it was staged the KGB would've made exposing such a lie a huge priority because it would have been devastating to the US.
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Feb 12, 2014 03:00
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I honestly think the most dangerous conspiracy theories are: 1) global warming denial 2) vaccine panic which goes along with 3) western medicine is just trying to keep you sick
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Feb 12, 2014 05:15
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Sergg posted:I honestly think the most dangerous conspiracy theories are: I'd argue holocaust denial is pretty dangerous too, because its a story that ends with neo-nazi fuckheads kicking the poo poo out of immigrants.
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Feb 12, 2014 08:27
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Pretty sure the Byzantines never called themselves Byzantine or their empire "Byzantium." They considered themselves Romans of the Roman Empire.
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Feb 12, 2014 08:36
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duck monster posted:I'd argue holocaust denial is pretty dangerous too, because its a story that ends with neo-nazi fuckheads kicking the poo poo out of immigrants. Yeah, and with that a bunch of "New World Order" bullshit because that usually boils down to "foreigners and gays are trying to destroy our people's culture." Prime examples would be in Russia right now where gay rights is seen as a plot by the decadent West, and gay people and immigrants are both paying the price; see also Breivek. It's also pretty popular in the US. Though I suppose at some point the lines dividing racism/antisemitism and conspiracy theories become blurry (antisemitism is perhaps one of the oldest surviving conspiracy theories), I think the NWO poo poo has certain aspects that make it particularly virulent.
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Feb 12, 2014 08:37
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Sergg posted:
I do feel that we need to separate this one into two categories: On one hand, we have the On the other, a great number of people do believe that the global warming is true, but they are sceptic as to the amount of influence Mankind's actions have on it. I can't say that I completely agree with the second group, but they behave rationally.
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Feb 12, 2014 09:26
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Grouchy Smurf posted:I can't say that I completely agree with the second group, but they behave rationally. It's not rational at all to hold a belief in spite of scientific consensus.
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Feb 12, 2014 09:49
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Sergg posted:2) vaccine panic Something I've heard said on a skepticism podcast (I believe it was SGU) by Derek of Jenny McCarthy Body Count is that the anti-vax movement is in a way a eugenics movement. Not one that's consciously trying to eradicate a group of people, but in a way of believing that because they, their children, or ancestors survived a preventable disease by fighting it off or never contracting it, they are stronger than those that died of those diseases. Though calling anti-vaxers a eugenics movement might be pretty extreme way of putting it.
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Feb 12, 2014 10:34
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I initially responded thus to the "got a crazy conservative email forward?" thread, specifically in response to the issue of the vaccination conspiracy, but my assertion was that "Nobody who claims to believe [a conspiracy of the scale of the vaccination scare] really believes such a thing. They do it as a method of lazy, lovely personal validation." Of course, this is paraphrased, and I shifted the topic to this thread for risk of causing a derail in the other thread. But here's the deal: I say, as evidenced by the behavior of people who espouse notions along the lines of the 9/11 conspiracy, obama being a muslim communist, etc, that the most vociferous proponents of such ideas don't really believe these things to be true; Further, that their lack of sincerity is self evident by their inaction; i.e. the most they are willing to do about Obama's plot to destroy the U.S. economy is to link to a townhall.com article on Facebook. If they really, truly believed these things, it is inconceivable that they would be so inactive. For a better articulated explanation of what I'm talking about, see the two part blog post on the subject, plus an excellently written comedy article which cites it. (I realize I'm an idiot; please resist the temptation to discredit me, and focus on the idea I'm putting forth.) I'm not- I swear- trying to come off as smart or superior (trust me, I am not either of those things) when I endorse these ideas, but I genuinely think that this explanation accounts for enough of the otherwise baffling behavior we witness in people that it can be regarded as a reliable heuristic. Creating (what are essentially) straw men that you can easily blow down to make yourself look like a hero; who can't at least partially sympathize with the desire to find such a solution to the nagging insecurity caused by a lack of sense of accomplishment that we all face at some point or another? I think approaching the issue from this angle can help us contend with situations where we are confronted by (ostensibly) well meaning folks sharing "warnings" to us via email chain letters (in a proactive way), but also better understand where this impulse comes from and predict future behavior. It's better than just assuming a lot of people are just stupid, evil and petty, right? Lemma fucked around with this message at 12:01 on Feb 12, 2014 |
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Feb 12, 2014 11:50
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Rakosi posted:It's not rational at all to hold a belief in spite of scientific consensus. This is far from true. The whole idea of science is that beliefs can be changed based on evidence. The fact that 97% of the scientific world believe global warming is caused by humanity, does not mean that the portion of the 3% who believe that is it caused by other means (ie increased solar activity) are irrational. They just believe that a different reason is to blame. A reason that is also documented and scientifically verified. It's totally different than saying "global warming doesn't exist", which ignores all scientific notions.
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Feb 12, 2014 16:39
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Star Man posted:Something I've heard said on a skepticism podcast (I believe it was SGU) by Derek of Jenny McCarthy Body Count is that the anti-vax movement is in a way a eugenics movement. Not one that's consciously trying to eradicate a group of people, but in a way of believing that because they, their children, or ancestors survived a preventable disease by fighting it off or never contracting it, they are stronger than those that died of those diseases. Yeah I don't think it's eugenics. It's more underestimating how badly nature can murder (or cripple) the poo poo out of you if she wants to, and an overestimation of the side effects of taking the vaccine. Most anti-vaxers have never seen stuff like Polio in person so they don't know the gravity of getting it.
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Feb 12, 2014 16:42
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Grouchy Smurf posted:This is far from true. The whole idea of science is that beliefs can be changed based on evidence. The fact that 97% of the scientific world believe global warming is caused by humanity, does not mean that the portion of the 3% who believe that is it caused by other means (ie increased solar activity) are irrational. They just believe that a different reason is to blame. A reason that is also documented and scientifically verified. It's totally different than saying "global warming doesn't exist", which ignores all scientific notions. Those 3% also ignore the evidence, though, as well as violating the poo poo out of parsimony. Are you saying they're scientists, who just totally suck at science?
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Feb 12, 2014 17:49
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They're scientists who's job depends on not understanding the evidence. I'd say this is a different category than conspiracy theory. People who believed tobacco companies trying to downplay the health effects of smoking weren't conspiracy theorists, they were just addicts desperately trying to believe a comforting and convenient lie. We're a society addicted to fossil fuels to a degree well beyond the worst smoking addiction, so there's a lot of people willing to eat up anyone saying we don't really need to change our life-styles and or everything won't be so bad. Even if it's just a tiny tiny minority of scientists that are constantly debunked or shown to be paid shills. People who think "environmentalism" is just communism in green paint and it's all a plot to destroy freedom are absolutely conspiracy theorists. The scientifically ignorant dude living in the suburbs driving to work every day who likes to comfort him self by thinking "the jury's still out on the cause of climate change" is just in comfortable denial. Baronjutter fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Feb 12, 2014 |
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Feb 12, 2014 18:18
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RagnarokAngel posted:Yeah I don't think it's eugenics. It's more underestimating how badly nature can murder (or cripple) the poo poo out of you if she wants to, and an overestimation of the side effects of taking the vaccine. Most anti-vaxers have never seen stuff like Polio in person so they don't know the gravity of getting it. Someone I went to school with was an adopted child and his father was a polio victim and wheelchair bound and there was a friend of my mother's family that had the same condition. Even 40 years after the vaccine was introduced, it still scared the bejeezus out of me at the age of nine.
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Feb 13, 2014 00:10
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Grouchy Smurf posted:I do feel that we need to separate this one into two categories: Lets not forget the people who don't care about global warming because after all if the world ends or humanity can't survive anymore then jesus has to come back. Hell, there are probably people who want global warming to continue because that might be how you summon him.
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Feb 13, 2014 00:41
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See also the support of Israel among America's radical right. Can't have the Second Coming without Israel around.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:52
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Baronjutter posted:We're a society addicted to fossil fuels to a degree well beyond the worst smoking addiction Cheap energy is necessary to have a life that is at all meaningful. Right now that means oil. If someone invented a battery technology that could do more than drive a go-kart a couple dozen miles, we'd switch over to it. And boy howdy are there some conspiracy theories related to alternative energy technology. I particularly favor the ones about how windmills rotate at a rate that's TOTALLY SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN to resonate with the human nervous system and cause people to commit suicide, but of course the government totally covers it up because they're deep in the pockets of Big Business who is making tons of money from those windmills.
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Feb 14, 2014 06:43
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Miss-Bomarc posted:And boy howdy are there some conspiracy theories related to alternative energy technology. I particularly favor the ones about how windmills rotate at a rate that's TOTALLY SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN to resonate with the human nervous system and cause people to commit suicide, but of course the government totally covers it up because they're deep in the pockets of Big Business who is making tons of money from those windmills. I knew that those dastardly Dutch were up to something! 
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Feb 14, 2014 14:23
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