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I will say one thing about WoW, I really miss getting a talent point every level. As silly as it sounds, each level had something (even if it was very minor) to look forward to. Then, when you hit that level that brought about an entirely new ability or a new row of talents, it was exciting to take a look at your options. Finishing all your quests in a zone and moving on to the next was fun when you didn't have half the zone's remaining quests grayed out in your log. Then again, I completely understand that most people just want to rush to endgame and solely play that, but leveling in an MMO is my favorite part. I'm probably a minority in that regard, though.
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Feb 13, 2014 00:33
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:I mean its just dodge these things, attack this first then that. Simon says basically. So..every MMO? e: Look, man. I miss EQ for a lot of reasons but its certainly not because of riveting encounter design like "sometimes the boss will attack the 2nd guy on the top of the agro list" and "it's gonna death touch once a minute" while 40 people auto-attack the boss into the corner. suuma fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 00:42
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Is this still the Pantheon thread? Or have we given up on it at this point, hence all the PoE and WoW talk?
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Feb 13, 2014 01:07
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xZAOx posted:Is this still the Pantheon thread? Or have we given up on it at this point, hence all the PoE and WoW talk? Intermission until Brad starts up the kickstarter postmortem donations site.
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Feb 13, 2014 06:48
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Arivia posted:It's more playable, more engaging, and more fun, you're right. I Made 90 in less then 2 weeks. I Got all my raid gear in less then 4 days. I Cancelled my subscription cause i had nothing else to do but grind for hours on end for stuff i didnt need. You're right, Lot's of fun.
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Feb 13, 2014 14:46
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iminers posted:I Made 90 in less then 2 weeks. I resubbed and got my favorite 85 to 90 in a couple of days. I got myself all geared up to do flex raiding in less than that. I'm having a ball doing flex raiding with my cool guild full of awesome people and contributing to boot. So yeah, it actually is a lot of fun.
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Feb 13, 2014 15:11
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i am tim! posted:I resubbed and got my favorite 85 to 90 in a couple of days. Why even have non-raid content if it blasts you through it in 2 or 3 days? Why not just have a button at the character select that says "press me to pick a class and begin raiding"?
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Feb 13, 2014 15:34
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i am tim! posted:I resubbed and got my favorite 85 to 90 in a couple of days. ^^^^^ Pretty much right on. "Press this button to win wow, thanks for playing!" To each his own bro.
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Feb 13, 2014 15:39
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Chum Scandal posted:Why even have non-raid content if it blasts you through it in 2 or 3 days? Why not just have a button at the character select that says "press me to pick a class and begin raiding"? Because people enjoy it and would be upset with it being taken away. Other people, although I do too sometimes. Heck, I'm currently leveling a hunter and having a good time of it. That good time doesn't last forever so I'm thankful that it ends when it does and I can get into the other stuff I enjoy about the game like raiding with pals, running dungeons, doing the pokewow thing and generally having a lighthearted good time. It's not terribly challenging content, but I'm not always after a white-knuckled challenge when I play games.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:03
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Minsky posted:Well, video games are just you pressing the right button at the right time. Seems pretty easy; most players are probably just terrible. Yes wows raids are definitely not easy. They almost boarder on absurd level of twitch play, all 25 people to boot, to pull them off. Positioning, movement, etc... No denying this.The problem is that wow has no other layers of difficulty. So they are now stuck in how they design their encounters. The only way to make wow encounters more dificult is make them even more unforgiving in longer bursts in the level of twitch play. EQ leveraged this with having more than one layer of difficulty. No one can say that EQs encounters were hard. But coupled with EQs death penalty they took on an entirely different meaning, it added layers of difficulty to the game. Now you dont have to have a more difficult boss per say. Just bury him deeper in some dungeon somewhere. And hes instantly more difficult from a meta game perspective. For one, obviously hes more difficult to get to. But two, if you gently caress up and wipe, you need to get back there somehow and get your corpses. More risk for more reward. See, you just added a layer of difficulty and it gives you more options as a game designer to leverage those to create a good balance of risk vs reward.
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Feb 13, 2014 16:21
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That is the sort of line of reasoning that ends up with Absolute Virtue being put into the game.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:06
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Peechka posted:Yes wows raids are definitely not easy. They almost boarder on absurd level of twitch play, all 25 people to boot, to pull them off. Positioning, movement, etc... No denying this.The problem is that wow has no other layers of difficulty. So they are now stuck in how they design their encounters. The only way to make wow encounters more dificult is make them even more unforgiving in longer bursts in the level of twitch play. Yeah. Getting killed used to mean trekking from the nearest city back to the obscure dungeon leagues from civilization. All while naked and narrowly avoiding death from inescapable aggro. Its not they were wrong in creating a penalty like this, but that you had to do it naked and alone.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:10
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Chum Scandal posted:Why even have non-raid content if it blasts you through it in 2 or 3 days? Why not just have a button at the character select that says "press me to pick a class and begin raiding"? Honestly, I'd play that. Give me a game with MMO mechanics, lots of diverse classes (MOBA style maybe), a lobby system, and talent trees/equipment to manage at the lobby screen. I'd probably play that all day. You could even throw in PvP. Literally just a massive raid/dungeon end-game. I think a lot of people would play that, actually. Keep all the bullshit meta stuff like gearing up and sockets and loot drops, too.
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Feb 13, 2014 19:22
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CountingWizard posted:Yeah. Getting killed used to mean trekking from the nearest city back to the obscure dungeon leagues from civilization. All while naked and narrowly avoiding death from inescapable aggro. Its not they were wrong in creating a penalty like this, but that you had to do it naked and alone. I have some very fond memories of corpse recoveries/runs in EQ, and even some pretty good memories from days when I lost corpses forever (I was in beta phase 1 when there were only about 40 people online total, and usually half or more were dev's). That was a long time ago though, and these days, I have a career, long commutes every day, and other hobbies, and I'm not interested in going back to that. Ever. I like that in most games these days I have the ability to leave when something in RL comes up, without worrying about needing to get back into a 'game' within X hours to recover all my stuff that took me a huge time investment to get. Is there a market for this sort of thing? Probably, but my guess is that it's much smaller than it was when EQ came out, as most of the people who played and enjoyed that are like myself - older with more responsibilities and time constraints on our gaming. I really doubt that most gamers today are interested in dealing with what we dealt with in the original EQ, even if I do have some great memories of corpse drags through Hate while dodging mobs that could see through invisibility. Also, gating jerks to Hate or Fear and leaving them there. That was pretty fun too. 
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Feb 13, 2014 19:51
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I just want an MMO that is closer to PnP experience; D&D Online was supposed to be, but definitely not a PnP experience. I'm not really interested in the setting for Pantheon, and don't see how they want to bring the MMO experience closer to PnP.
CountingWizard fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 20:16
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dichloroisocyanuric posted:Honestly, I'd play that. Give me a game with MMO mechanics, lots of diverse classes (MOBA style maybe), a lobby system, and talent trees/equipment to manage at the lobby screen. I'd probably play that all day. You could even throw in PvP. Literally just a massive raid/dungeon end-game. I think a lot of people would play that, actually. Keep all the bullshit meta stuff like gearing up and sockets and loot drops, too. Sounds a lot like Monster Hunter, but with more people and actual dungeons (not just boss fights). e: actually this is a dumb post since Monster Hunter does not have typical MMO mechanics. my bad.
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Feb 13, 2014 20:31
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Hell, I'm down with monster hunter having dungeons and chests and poo poo that end in monster fights On topic, though: I'm not really getting a pnp vibe from this game at all. More classic EQ. I don't really think they are going for one, either.
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Feb 13, 2014 20:44
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CountingWizard posted:I just want an MMO that is closer to PnP experience; D&D Online was supposed to be, but definitely not a PnP experience. I'm not really interested in the setting for Pantheon, and don't see how they want to bring the MMO experience closer to PnP. If SOE gives players all the tools they say they will then Landmark might be your best bet - people will allegedly be able to make their own dungeons, mobs/AI, loot, etc. Given a collaborative effort you could see something that looks like an old school MUD (lots of user made areas) and plays like a dungeon crawling PnP game but with MMO mechanics. But y'know,  so probably not!
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Feb 13, 2014 21:07
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So apparently they're working on official Pantheon forums, and you have to subscribe (as in, a recurring payment) to have access to them. I can't find any public post about that though, just people talking about it after the fact.
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Feb 13, 2014 21:28
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iminers posted:I Made 90 in less then 2 weeks. This is the character you linked in the WOW forum, and uh, it doesn't really match up with "all raid gear in less than 4 weeks" when you're still using VP-bought rings and timeless isle drops. I mean seriously, of the 5 raids available, you've finished 1 in the easiest literal-afk difficulty, killed 2 bosses out of 12 in another, but there's "nothing else to do but grind for hours on end". This is up there with the "WOW is gay poo poo for babbys" in the original Vanguard thread in terms of stdh.txt
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Feb 13, 2014 22:44
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Great. Why don't you WoW guys create your own thread about how great it is and it's not poo poo and gently caress you guys for thinking it's poo poo.
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Feb 13, 2014 23:13
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moolchaba posted:Great. Why don't you WoW guys create your own thread about how great it is and it's not poo poo and gently caress you guys for thinking it's poo poo. I don't play WOW any more. I played vanguard (for 3 years!), I played EQ1, I played FFXI, and I enjoyed them all more than WOW, and I'm looking forward to this because it should be similar to them. I'm still gonna call out idiot nerd "I tripped over max-level epic gear 5 minutes after hitting max level, 5 minutes after installing the game" poo poo because it's really pathetic, you know?
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Feb 13, 2014 23:23
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I would love it if we could get away from the WoW talk, but obviously I'm not a moderator or anything but I hope we can get back to Pantheon. While it wasn't an official announcement, it looks like they have come to the conclusion the kickstarter won't get funded. Visionary Realms put out a statement on facebook: quote:Hi all. Quick update: As has been posted in this thread previously, there have been kickstarters that have failed, and the second one succeeded after the project was worked on further, so the end times are not nigh. I guess that means a remake of the OP once the kickstarter is over and their new site is fully functional. Effort. I'm glad it's not vanishing. My question to Brad or Ceythox, if they are still reading this thread. I assume you are going to set up tiers on your web site - I bought one of the very limited tiers (only 25 were given) to get all previous rewards, and be able to create and name an item in game. Will people that pledged to that tier (and similar tiers) be able to have that pledge carry over to the web site, or will it be first come first serve?
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Feb 14, 2014 00:31
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megalodong posted:I don't play WOW any more. I played vanguard (for 3 years!), I played EQ1, I played FFXI, and I enjoyed them all more than WOW, and I'm looking forward to this because it should be similar to them. cute that you think this game is ever going to happen
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Feb 14, 2014 02:05
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Space Pussy posted:cute that you think this game is ever going to happen It's going to be a struggle, but they're not giving up. They're not amateurs to the industry. I'm not going to say they are masters but I would say they know what they are doing. Node fucked around with this message at 03:30 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 03:26
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Nothing makes me want to pledge money to a kickstarter more then hearing how their plans don't really change depending on if the kickstarter is successful or not.
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Feb 14, 2014 03:35
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randombattle posted:Nothing makes me want to pledge money to a kickstarter more then hearing how their plans don't really change depending on if the kickstarter is successful or not. Yeah since that announcement the kickstarter is effectively over.
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Feb 14, 2014 03:54
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Meow Tse-tung posted:I hate skill trees in general because it almost always seems like there's "one correct answer" for whatever role you want. Don't lie, you go online and look up the 'optimal' just like everyone who wants to do higher level content does. That's why you get everyone wearing cookie cutter gear and cookie cutter skill point builds. It's all very paint-by-numbers and as long as MMOs rely on hotbar DDR and skill points, you'll see that every single time. I don't think oldschool wow was particularly challenging, it just meant that unlike EQ, you had to not stand in the fire sometimes and couldn't just read a book while you played. WoW didn't really have the complexity to stuff it up unless you were a moron. For example I usually played a Druid in WoW and I liked healing, so you take abilities which makes your healing better. But you had some scope to customize what was your strength even within the healing role, now it is just attack of the clones. I would go to sites which min/maxed after i had looked at the tree and from my own experience what I wanted to be able to do, I usually stuck with what I had in mind because having some additional versatility was better than being 1% better, and I always focused on my HoTs and AE healing, I valued the ability to excel at mobile healing. It is now just attack of the clones, what little choice was given to you was stripped and it was stripped to make the game more playable for younger people. When a develop decides he wants to dumb down the design for younger audiences the content and the experience is soon going to follow suit. Old School WoW wasn't a difficult game, it just had more scope, more things to explore and experiment with and discover. WoW now tells you where to go, what to do and the choices do not really exist anymore. You used to be able to heal as a Ret or Prot Paladin which converted AP into SP, but no, it wasn't in their 'vision' so they just made things stop working, whenever you pushed the boundaries of your abilities you were an exploiter or min-maxer. It was just the only sliver of choice for individuality. People want to stand out from the endless flow of automatons. They want to do things their way, explore, adventure and make choices rather than be a bystander to watching an interactive story play out you have no control or influence in at any level.
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Feb 14, 2014 04:12
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Zvim posted:It is now just attack of the clones, what little choice was given to you was stripped and it was stripped to make the game more playable for younger people. When a develop decides he wants to dumb down the design for younger audiences the content and the experience is soon going to follow suit. That is possibly the dumbest statement in this thread. The classes are the way they are now primarily because of: a) Making sure that a 2t/2.5h/5.5d split in a 10 man will be able to clear a boss on heroic regardless of the classes filling the roles b) QOL changes to remove things like 5 minute blessings and rebuffing x hits and gone buffs mid fight (inner fire for example) c) Changing talents to a setup where there is actual meaningful choice The core push which should be seen as a good one is that if you have a druid, shaman and priest or 2 paladins and druid or whaterver your raid group should be able to kill a boss as long as everyone plays well. The experience that made me quit was H-LK where our druid had to reroll to disc priest, I had to reroll to a warlock and our rogue had to reroll to a hunter for one specific fight. Being generous thats 2 weeks of leveling and a month of running old raids to get kitted out and ready again. The sort of mindset that says these sort of changes are wrong comes from EQ amazingly enough with people like Furor railing against hybrids because he might lose his spot of wedging himself into a corner and pressing 1 button every minute. Valuing the player and not the class is the sort of thing that should be important when designing a mmo but seems to get forgotten about.
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Feb 14, 2014 05:19
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Node posted:I would say they know what they are doing. Clearly though, they don't. Brad bombed spectacularly with Vanguard already. Why would any non-retarded investor give this guy serious money when he can't even manage a proper Kickstarter.
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Feb 14, 2014 06:24
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Space Pussy posted:Clearly though, they don't. I quite like that he thinks the business plan comes after the kickstarter not before
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Feb 14, 2014 07:16
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Byolante posted:The core push which should be seen as a good one is that if you have a druid, shaman and priest or 2 paladins and druid or whaterver your raid group should be able to kill a boss as long as everyone plays well. The experience that made me quit was H-LK where our druid had to reroll to disc priest, I had to reroll to a warlock and our rogue had to reroll to a hunter for one specific fight. Being generous thats 2 weeks of leveling and a month of running old raids to get kitted out and ready again. The sort of mindset that says these sort of changes are wrong comes from EQ amazingly enough with people like Furor railing against hybrids because he might lose his spot of wedging himself into a corner and pressing 1 button every minute. Holy poo poo that sounds awful. That boss (bosses?) in FFXI where it literally took more than 24 hours to kill is still my favorite 'gently caress-you' story in any MMO. Even better were the people and goons defending that mechanic at the time. Edit: Wait, is Absolute Virtue that boss?
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Feb 14, 2014 07:26
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Mayor McCheese posted:Holy poo poo that sounds awful. That boss (bosses?) in FFXI where it literally took more than 24 hours to kill is still my favorite 'gently caress-you' story in any MMO. Even better were the people and goons defending that mechanic at the time. I thought it went down in a reasonable time once they figured out the extremely obscure gimmick.
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Feb 14, 2014 07:41
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Mayor McCheese posted:Holy poo poo that sounds awful. That boss (bosses?) in FFXI where it literally took more than 24 hours to kill is still my favorite 'gently caress-you' story in any MMO. Even better were the people and goons defending that mechanic at the time. Absolute Virtue was, at one point, an unkillable boss, but the boss you're thinking of is Pandemonium Warden
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Feb 14, 2014 07:47
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For some reason I thought it was longer. 18 hours is still incredible and batshit crazy, though.
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Feb 14, 2014 09:14
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Space Pussy posted:Clearly though, they don't. I'd argue that Vanguard wasn't a bomb. It wasn't a success, even though I loved the game, but I don't think you have to pick one or the other. And it sounds like you're placing blame on one person for the kickstarter when it was Visionary Realms in charge of it. Did he play the biggest role in it? Surely. I don't think getting a kickstarter funded is a hazing process to becoming a proper developer - it's advertised as a niche game, kickstarter didn't work for it. It definitely could have been handled better, with more time, hype, and media.
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Feb 14, 2014 10:08
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Node posted:I'd argue that Vanguard wasn't a bomb. It wasn't a success, even though I loved the game, but I don't think you have to pick one or the other. Stop saying dumb things. It wasn't a success when they lost money on it year after year according to smedly.
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Feb 14, 2014 11:18
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Guys don't be so negative. Shutting down could really turn things around for Vanguard!
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Feb 14, 2014 11:28
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Third World Reggin posted:Stop saying dumb things. I'm just judging it by how long it was active - 7 years is decent. It's really weird that Smedley would let something draining money every year go on that long. But if you've read more about it, I'll take your word for it. Yes, I know I sound like a fanboy because I am, but at least I recognize I'm one. Be nice to poor Node  .Mind you I specifically said it wasn't a success, either. It just doesn't come off as a failure to me compared to, like, The Matrix Online. Meow Tse-tung posted:Guys don't be so negative. Shutting down could really turn things around for Vanguard! If someone can pull off an emulated server somehow, it could! Node fucked around with this message at 12:32 on Feb 14, 2014 |
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Feb 14, 2014 12:23
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I think someone is doing an emulated server for vanguard and for everquest 2. I would really never wish that upon someone. http://vgoemulator.net/ It is neat cause they say they need more people and they are working on it, then you look at this page. http://vgoemulator.net/index.php?p=projman It used to list the same guy for all the assigned roles but now it just says hidden.
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Feb 14, 2014 14:22
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