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Before I start on the AUs, should I watch F91 and read the manga continuation of it? Isn't it set far in the future of what I've been watching?
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Feb 16, 2014 04:26
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Yes, but late UC attempts to divorce itself from early UC as much as possible. Which is sadly one of the reasons it never took off. EDIT: V You've never watched 00 S2, huh.
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Feb 16, 2014 04:27
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BlitzBlast posted:Later works retcon in a device called the Biosensor to explain the last two episodes of Zeta. Which honestly kind of ruins the whole thing, since the entire point of the final clash was that Scirocco was defeated by something he legitimately could not comprehend since he didn't understand the value of human lives, but I guess it's better to go midi-chlorians than to just randomly have the Zeta channel the dead. I don't know why they even bother, since there's no real way to say "this is a Real Robot series" and "this (totally Real) Robot can channel dead people's souls to turn itself absolutely invincible and create a super-long beam saber". You either take one or the other, not both. People complain about later series being too Super-ish, but nothing will ever beat the Zeta (apart from the Turn-A at its best) in Super Robot-ness. NikkolasKing posted:Before I start on the AUs, should I watch F91 and read the manga continuation of it? Isn't it set far in the future of what I've been watching? I've pointed out Crossbone Gundam (said manga continuation) a few times in the thread and seems no one here is particularly fond of it. I can't guess why, since I absolutely loved the hell out of it. The art is bad, I won't say otherwise, but the characters are likable, the Gundams are great, you don't need to have watched much early UC to understand it, and is overall a boatload of fun. Don't expect something ~dark and edgy~ like Zeta though, neither F91 nor Crossbone reach that level, thankfully. F91 is a pretty good series turned mediocre-to-good movie. It's a blatantly cut to bits project, but the movie is overall watchable. It could've been great, but it wasn't meant to be. I hope someday they'll do a full F91, but I doubt it'll happen. Oh well, nothing wrong with dreaming. Blaze Dragon fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 04:27
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It is set thirty years after Char's Counterattack. I'd say watch the movie. It's just a movie so it isn't really a huge time commitment. Maybe check the manga out some people like it but the art is hideous.
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Feb 16, 2014 04:28
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Erd posted:I don't know where Moon Moon gets its 'comedy' pedigree from. Moon Moon largely played its 'outsiders who have abandoned technology' plots straight. Sure the Argama and Endra crews arrive with their wacky hijinx, but that stuff has been going in since the first episode. I don't know, I think it just falls under the umbrella of "We never asked for this". It's like, does anyone really want to see people living on a space colony who for whatever reason decided to give up technology and literally chuck spears at mobile suits and ambush spaceships with space ninjas  ? What the hell, no. Just like we didn't want to see Yazan comedy relief shenanigans. Most of us just wanted more zeta gundam.
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Feb 16, 2014 04:36
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Meow Tse-tung posted:I don't know, I think it just falls under the umbrella of "We never asked for this". It's like, does anyone really want to see people living on a space colony who for whatever reason decided to give up technology and literally chuck spears at mobile suits and ambush spaceships with space ninjas That exact sentiment is where a lot of people really don't do well with ZZ. I tell anyone coming into ZZ to watch something inbetween since the mood whiplash is so strong. However ZZ really made some poor choices. Yazan is responsible for killing most of the Zeta cast. He should have not been made into a punchline then never show up.
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Feb 16, 2014 04:43
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I like to imagine that Yazan was a real jokester when he wasn't on screen in Zeta. Him and his two wing men probably had a slapstick comedy routine they used at the Titan's talent show.
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Feb 16, 2014 04:48
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There's an image that involves him constantly referring to himself as Yazan and the Hammurabi for everything. I assume it is something similar to that.
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Feb 16, 2014 04:53
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Caros posted:Its regionalism, pure and simple. I live in Canada and we have people in Alberta, a western province who absolutely hate people who live in ontario, an eastern province to the point that they join armed militias and that is within the same country. When extended over the course of nearly a century and hundreds of thousands of miles its not hard to believe that there are fundamental differences between those who grow up and live in space and those who were born and raised on earth. Hey, check out Quebec! We currently have a sovereignist ultranationalist minority government with a history of wasting poo poo tons of money on separatist referendums and that currently enforces language laws that prosecute Italian restaurants for having "pasta" in their menu. Are you a public servant? Is your religion other than Catholicism and you desire to wear articles such as a hijab or a turban while you work? Fuuucccckkkk that. It's basically a conflict between the immigrant heavy population of Montreal and the podunk xenophobic rest of the entire province. For me the whole Spacenoid vs. Earthnoid conflict is pretty much the easiest thing to understand in Gundam when we have examples of such everywhere around the world today and throughout history for lesser differences. NikkolasKing posted:On the sympathetic villain side of things, I loved Four. She and the other Cyber Newtypes took what they were trying to do with Lalah (from a storytelling perspective I mean) and actually executed it well this time around. Giving them a backstory of a sorts was probably the key to this, as well as letting them interact with the heroes more. Can I ask why you liked Four so much? The whole manic pixie girl sctick, the headaches, and the "my memories!" thing didn't really do anything for me. I found the Cyber Newtype thing wasn't really well executed at all. The story just dumps Rosamia and Four on us and goes "Hey, these are 'Cyber-Newtypes'. We're gonna be real ambiguous about what they are or how they're created, but they have powers and come from labs, and boy howdy are they hosed up and ineffective!"
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Feb 16, 2014 05:28
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Can we all agree that cyber newtypes are basically the dumbest thing ever? If any developed nation got found out doing that poo poo people would be foaming at the mouth for them to stop. "Hey, let's take all these orphans/clones/child soldiers and pump them full of drugs and nanotech to make awesome soldiers! Oh, wait, every single one of them is psychologically broken, what are the odds?!"
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Feb 16, 2014 05:37
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I think one of the ways that they could have pulled off the cyber newtype thing was what was originally planned for Char's Counterattack where Kamille comes back as one after Char uses it to fix his mental crippling. Watching one of the most powerful newtypes get reduced to that would have been effective.
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Feb 16, 2014 05:45
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The Muffinlord posted:Can we all agree that cyber newtypes are basically the dumbest thing ever? If any developed nation got found out doing that poo poo people would be foaming at the mouth for them to stop. "Hey, let's take all these orphans/clones/child soldiers and pump them full of drugs and nanotech to make awesome soldiers! Oh, wait, every single one of them is psychologically broken, what are the odds?!" The Titans WANT the colonies to know they are gassing them and killing millions of men, women and children. Unethical scientific experiments on random children is nothing. MEAT! posted:Can I ask why you liked Four so much? The whole manic pixie girl sctick, the headaches, and the "my memories!" thing didn't really do anything for me. I too was kinda annoyed with how they didn't explain Cyber Newtype creation but that was the point of the doctor running that "check-up" on Rosamia. They go into the "science" of it there as far as i can recall. I think it was yet more of "these are Space Nazis" thing. As you might know, one of the most favorite rumors about Nazis is that they were Jewish and big old hypocrites. The Titans hate and fear Newtypes and yet at the same time they are attemtping to engineer their own Newtypes. Plus it deals with a violation of what is obviously supposed to be one of the most wondrous miracles of humanity ascending to space. I mentioned earlier that Cyber Newtypes are in a way the greatest crime of the Titans from a thematic perspective and I think that is what Tomino was going for. The Titans have perverted something amazing and turned it into the greatest of evil. As for why I liked Four...I dunno really. I guess it was because she was the first person Kamille could kinda relate to. It's hard to say really. Have you ever just liked or disliked something without giving it much thought? I could go on for a while about why I liked Kamille but Four was just...auto-like for me without me being able to detail the why of it.
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Feb 16, 2014 05:51
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:I think one of the ways that they could have pulled off the cyber newtype thing was what was originally planned for Char's Counterattack where Kamille comes back as one after Char uses it to fix his mental crippling. Watching one of the most powerful newtypes get reduced to that would have been effective. I've never seen a source for this and I'm pretty sure it's just a rumor started on 4chan by people who wanted Kamille to be in the film in some manner. The fact that Char was originally supposed to be the enemy of ZZ and that Kamille starts the road to recovery pretty early on in ZZ would appear to indicate it's just that: a rumor.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:03
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NikkolasKing posted:I think it was yet more of "these are Space Nazis" thing. As you might know, one of the most favorite rumors about Nazis is that they were Jewish and big old hypocrites. The Titans hate and fear Newtypes and yet at the same time they are attemtping to engineer their own Newtypes. Plus it deals with a violation of what is obviously supposed to be one of the most wondrous miracles of humanity ascending to space. I mentioned earlier that Cyber Newtypes are in a way the greatest crime of the Titans from a thematic perspective and I think that is what Tomino was going for. The Titans have perverted something amazing and turned it into the greatest of evil. Sort of? Cyber Newtype is a term invented from whole cloth by the localizers. The Japanese term just means enhanced human. They were clearly trying to make another Amuro, but didn't much care about the whole philosophical bent to the thing. The people responsible (at least in Zeta) didn't even particularly believe most of the hype about real Newtypes in the first place, so they definitely weren't trying to make one of those.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:20
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Really? That's interesting. I mean...Four and the others clearly had Newtype powers didn't they? So if Kamille climbed in the Psyco Gundam it wouldn't work? I was wondering about that since he's a natural, uber Newtype. Then again I hear CCA and Unicorn take the whole Newtype Gundam stuff to a whole other level.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:24
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I kind of took it as "Humanity will weaponize all of our greatest hopes for the future" sort of a thing. Kind of like the limitless possibilities of the internet were realized and sparked our imagination about what the future held, and then we just used it to call people mean names and post pictures of cats.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:29
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NikkolasKing posted:Really? That's interesting. I mean...Four and the others clearly had Newtype powers didn't they? Well they bought into the hype of making super pilots who have enhanced spacial awareness allowing them to be generally better at combat as well as being able to use special weaponry like bits/funnel, which would basically be impossible for regular humans to use well. The other part of Newtypes, if you remember, is that they are supposed to be an evolutionary response to man being isolated from one another in the vastness space. By being able to better navigate in space and sense the presence of others (through their emotions), mankind can spread through the stars. Also the philosophical part about being able to feel each other's emotions allowing humans to understand one another better and lead a more peaceful experience. Yeah the Titans don't really buy into that second part.
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Feb 16, 2014 06:56
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Well that was my point. The Titans took something natural and wonderful and perverted it. They saw how Newtypes could be used to kill as opposed to bring people together. But I dunno. Even if the Japanese version didn't call them Newtypes, it seems really clear to me that Four and the others were supposed to be Newtypes. Amuro and Char even lampshade this kind of when they say Kamille and Four's relationship is the same as Amuro's and Lalah's. So while Cyber Newtype might be an English term, isn't it safe to say the intention of the Japanese writers was for them to be man-made Newtypes? It seems to fit thematically to my eyes.
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Feb 16, 2014 07:36
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Meow Tse-tung posted:I kind of took it as "Humanity will weaponize all of our greatest hopes for the future" sort of a thing. Kind of like the limitless possibilities of the internet were realized and sparked our imagination about what the future held, and then we just used it to call people mean names and post pictures of cats. And to collectively play a single game of Pokemon.
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Feb 16, 2014 07:43
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So it kinda really bugged me that they aren't called Cyber Newtypes in he original Japanese. I was wondering if subtitles would help enlighten me but I've checked a couple different sources, including the episodes up on Daisuki, and they are always subbed as Cyber Newtypes even though the characters are clearly not saying Newtype. But at the same time, in relation to Rosamia's physical, Char mentions people artificially creating Newtypes. So...I think the localization team is on the money and not just pulling stuff out of their rear end. The Japanese just weren't being clear enough. "Enhanced human" or whatever it is just makes me think of Captain America or something. MEAT! posted:It's basically the same thing. They keep comparing Newtypes and Cyber-Newtypes in Zeta and in everything afterwards. Also in CCA Gyunei has a line where he says that he was "cyber-enchanced into a Newtype" and you hear him say "kyouka" (like kyouka ningen) and "Newtype". Well then there ya go. I feel vindicated. I was kinda worried my interpretation of the material was tainted by the dub misleading me, which has happened before in other anime. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 13:16 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 12:44
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It's basically the same thing. They keep comparing Newtypes and Cyber-Newtypes in Zeta and in everything afterwards. Also in CCA Gyunei has a line where he says that he was "cyber-enchanced into a Newtype" and you hear him say "kyouka" (like kyouka ningen) and "Newtype".
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Feb 16, 2014 12:57
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Regardless if the exact term "cyber newtype" was an invention or not it still works.. Four, Rosamia, etc are technologically manufactured artificial newtypes, so cyber newtype works fine even if it's not what "kyouka ningen" literally means. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has crazy trippy naked flying visions of other newtypes like a duck, it's most likely a duck.
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Feb 16, 2014 13:13
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My guess would be that "cyber" was probably slung around a lot more loosely and just slapped onto anything that referred to computers and human technology back in the 80s.
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Feb 16, 2014 13:18
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I just turned Domon into a cyber-Newtype in DWG 2, does this mean he has to die a tragic ironic death now?
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Feb 16, 2014 13:40
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Sakurazuka posted:I just turned Domon into a cyber-Newtype in DWG 2, does this mean he has to die a tragic ironic death now? Only if you put Rain into a Gundam and play a mission with Jerid on the other side
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Feb 16, 2014 16:33
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Well just finished ZZ, while it has its fair share of problems I definitely still enjoyed it. It would though have been endlessly improved by sticking to either the zany comedy stuff or the normal serious Gundam themes rather than swinging wildly between them. It was ever a show with multiple personality disorder. I liked Judau as a character, he may not have had the depth of Amuro or Kamille, but seeing him grow from a a selfish kid into someone who fought on his own terms was pretty well done. Though there was plenty of weirdness outside of the less than serious first half, the reveal of Leina still being alive was shown in a throw away split second scene, something that Tomino seems to love doing, apparently. And despite Judau being close to both Puru and Puru Two the former doesn't get mentioned again after her death until Puru Two returns and the latter's death is almost completely un-remarked upon. The whole Bright and Emaly affair thing was odd to see too, since it's something you almost never get in anime.
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Feb 16, 2014 18:28
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The biggest flaw with ZZ's drama aspect is how nobody really reacts to death the way they should. If they had excused it away with zany Newtype ghosts keeping up contact post-mortem that would have helped, but I guess that would have been too out there for ZZ's second half.
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Feb 16, 2014 18:51
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Watching Char's Counterattack right now and I'll post my thoughts on that when i finish it but in the meantime I'd be very interested in hearing your guys' thoughts on my guess about why everyone idolized Char in Zeta. Did it not bug anyone that almost everyone who encountered Char, rather than saying "oh poo poo, it's Char! Shoot to kill!", just wanted to prop him up as this grand new leader?
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Feb 17, 2014 00:06
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Char was the son of Space Jesus basically, and responsible for toppling the Titans and was a famous ace pilot. A lot of the lovely stuff he did they don't know about.
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Feb 17, 2014 00:08
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NikkolasKing posted:Watching Char's Counterattack right now and I'll post my thoughts on that when i finish it but in the meantime I'd be very interested in hearing your guys' thoughts on my guess about why everyone idolized Char in Zeta. Did it not bug anyone that almost everyone who encountered Char, rather than saying "oh poo poo, it's Char! Shoot to kill!", just wanted to prop him up as this grand new leader? It's worth remembering that the AEUG was a mishmash of Federation rebels, Zeon veterans, and unaffiliated spacenoid secessionists. To them, the legendary Zeon ace Char Aznable would be a hell of a symbol.
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Feb 17, 2014 00:09
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NikkolasKing posted:Watching Char's Counterattack right now and I'll post my thoughts on that when i finish it but in the meantime I'd be very interested in hearing your guys' thoughts on my guess about why everyone idolized Char in Zeta. Did it not bug anyone that almost everyone who encountered Char, rather than saying "oh poo poo, it's Char! Shoot to kill!", just wanted to prop him up as this grand new leader? Don't forget about Kai's refusal to work for AEUG in Zeta because it'd require him to work alongside Char.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:11
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Kai's burning loathing of Char is a universal constant. Man, I love Kai.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:14
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TTBF posted:Don't forget about Kai's refusal to work for AEUG in Zeta because it'd require him to work alongside Char. I didn't get that impression at all, I thought he was just disgusted by Char running away from his responsibilities and staying as a pilot?
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Feb 17, 2014 02:22
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Son Ryo posted:I didn't get that impression at all, I thought he was just disgusted by Char running away from his responsibilities and staying as a pilot? No, Kai's almost as single minded as Char in his hatred of people, he loathes the everloving gently caress out of anyone associated with Zeon.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:32
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Son Ryo posted:I didn't get that impression at all, I thought he was just disgusted by Char running away from his responsibilities and staying as a pilot? Yeah that is how I always saw it.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:33
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I always liked Kai, one of my favourite UC characters. I know it kind of misses the point of his character and story, but I wish he kept piloting MSes. It doesn't seem to be on the wiki, but in one of the novels, didn't he take over as White Base's main pilot after Amuro dies, with the G-3? Sure I heard it but it doesn't seem to make sense with the Beltorchica's Children version of CCA unless there are multiple novel continuities?
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Feb 17, 2014 02:44
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I just went back and checked and it's written down in plain (broken) english in the letter he leaves for Hayato. "He should be becoming the leader but he is satisfied with being mere soldier. I really don't like his attitude of escaping from reality. So I don't want to be with him." I don't get where you guys are getting this characterization of Kai as a rabid Zeon-hater from, he never came off that way to me at all.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:44
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BizarroAzrael posted:I always liked Kai, one of my favourite UC characters. I know it kind of misses the point of his character and story, but I wish he kept piloting MSes. That is exactly what happens. He is also the strongest Newtype around and the one who guides them to Ghiren Zabi because nobody else can do it. In one of the G Generation games there's a special storyline which begins with the novel ending where Amuro dies. One of the things it features is Kai Shiden as a super-powerful Newtype piloting the Nu Gundam.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:45
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BizarroAzrael posted:unless there are multiple novel continuities? There are not parallel anime, manga, and novel continuities. Each Gundam novel should be seen as building off the animated UC from the point at which that novel begins.
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Feb 17, 2014 02:51
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An ova of Super Newtype Kai Shinden would be amazing. 
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Feb 17, 2014 02:53
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