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computer parts posted:If a store you regularly visit doesn't have a product, but a store you also regularly visit but is slightly farther out does have that product, is the first store placing an additional burden on you because now you'll have to add that product to your second store list? If a store I visit regularly denies me anything that I know they (would otherwise) sell because of their "Religious liberties", I'd be pretty pissed or upset and stop going there altogether. That's a pretty sizable burden.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:15
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Morter posted:If a store I visit regularly denies me anything that I know they (would otherwise) sell because of their "Religious liberties", I'd be pretty pissed or upset and stop going there altogether. That's a pretty sizable burden. I'm talking about birth control, not the cakes.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:16
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I was posting under the impression that pharmacists (and others, like employers?) could deny access to birth control because of their religious beliefs.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:18
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computer parts posted:I'm talking about birth control, not the cakes. Then why the gently caress are you talking bout birth control in the marriage thread, dingus?
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Feb 16, 2014 19:18
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Morter posted:I was posting under the impression that pharmacists (and others, like employers?) could deny access to birth control because of their religious beliefs. Pharmacists can, I don't know about the employers themselves, and in any case they're not denying you something that they would normally sell. They're just refusing to sell it. Gerund posted:Then why the gently caress are you talking bout birth control in the marriage thread, dingus? Because someone specifically asked "hey are there examples of laws where people can refuse service based on computer parts fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 19:19
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Lutha Mahtin posted:I think it will be interesting to watch Texas because it's one of the most populous states. If they end up having the same Benny Hill-style scramble to get married like Utah, that will be a lot of marriages. All of the major cities in Texas have anti-gay discrimination employment laws. The thing about Texas is that if you take religion out of it then gay rights are pretty popular, so people will go for employment laws etc but often have trouble with gay marriage
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Feb 16, 2014 19:20
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Ah, yes, all that birth control that gay couples are in such desperate need for.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:20
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Pfirti86 posted:Wait, what? Small towns have been vastly depopulated. They depopulated much faster than the rural areas they're in in general. On top of that many other small towns have been solidly subsumed into suburban development, or even directly into cities themselves - and thus can no longer be identified as Small Town anymore. crowfeathers posted:All of the major cities in Texas have anti-gay discrimination employment laws. The thing about Texas is that if you take religion out of it then gay rights are pretty popular, so people will go for employment laws etc but often have trouble with gay marriage That's not taking religion out of it, that's just using religion at random. Most places that don't have anti-discrimination employment laws for gay people do in fact justify it on the basis that gays are wrong, usually because of the same level of religious backing as anti-gay marriage.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:25
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computer parts posted:Pharmacists can, I don't know about the employers themselves, and in any case they're not denying you something that they would normally sell. They're just refusing to sell it. The last time I heard of "Religious beliefs" being the reason to deny goods to someone--as well as the last time I saw birth control get brought up for rights issues--was when employers were able to opt out of providing insurance or medical benifits that gave access to birth control/contraceptives. Don't mean to confuse the issue, though.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:33
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Install Windows posted:
The San Antonio anti-discrimination law passed because they agreed to exempt churches
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Feb 16, 2014 19:37
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crowfeathers posted:The San Antonio anti-discrimination law passed because they agreed to exempt churches Explain how this is different then literally any gay marriage law in the US
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Feb 16, 2014 19:39
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computer parts posted:Pharmacists can, I don't know about the employers themselves, and in any case they're not denying you something that they would normally sell. They're just refusing to sell it. No, they are. The pharmacies do stock birth control. Married women can get birth control. The pharmacists in question selectively deny it to unmarried women because it's against their religious beliefs to sell it to sluts. There aren't any laws that require pharmacies to stock condoms, for example, but if they do they can't refuse to sell condoms to a couple of dudes holding hands because they'll use it for homosex. Install Windows posted:Explain how this is different then literally any gay marriage law in the US Churches in San Antonio are still allowed to fire the secretary if someone sees him walking out of a gay bar? VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 19:39
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VitalSigns posted:
Are you even paying attention? Gay marriage laws don't force churches to make or recognize gay marriages.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:43
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Install Windows posted:Explain how this is different then literally any gay marriage law in the US Marriage is a "religious institution" it's not a really complicated argument.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:45
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Install Windows posted:Are you even paying attention? Gay marriage laws don't force churches to make or recognize gay marriages. Are you paying attention? The anti-discrimination law in San Antonio bans the city from using contractors that discriminate against LGBT people, but to pass it they had to add a section that religious groups can still be bigots. It would be like a marriage law that still lets Christian hospitals keep your gay spouse from your bedside.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:48
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crowfeathers posted:Marriage is a "religious institution" it's not a really complicated argument. The Church doesn't grant the rights of child custody, the right to modified taxes, the right to medical visitation, churches haven't had the monopoly on contracting marriages for well over a century and in most jurisdictions they can't conduct legally binding ones at all unless a civil marriage license has been obtained. In other words, marriage is religous is a pile of bullshit. VitalSigns posted:Are you paying attention? The anti-discrimination law in San Antonio bans the city from using contractors that discriminate against LGBT people, but to pass it they had to add a section that religious groups can still be bigots. Most anti-discrimination laws still allow bona-fide religious groups to only employ people following their religion, which override any other discrimination laws in place. That said, San Antonio's law only applies to municipal government and services. It does not apply to private businesses or groups, so there's no actual exemption there. Unless San Antonio regularly contracts priests?? Or did San Antonio create an established church while we weren't looking? Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 19:50
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computer parts posted:If a Wow, it's really interesting how similar your argument is to the people holding signs declaring race mixing to be communism. I am not a book fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 20:01
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I am not a book posted:Wow, it's really interesting how similar your argument is to the people holding signs declaring race mixing to be communism. I don't see why black people can't just drive somewhere else if they don't like the service they get where they live. Why should they get to burden my sincere religious belief that it's wrong for my business to serve the Sons of Ham that God marked with His terrible curse?
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Feb 16, 2014 20:10
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computer parts posted:Of course they're a burden, my point is that they're expected. You're not driving for an hour to get just birth control, you're driving to get many services necessary for survival. Yes, and I anticipated and countered this response in the other paragraph you conveniently excised from the post of mine you quoted. 
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Feb 16, 2014 20:27
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Lutha Mahtin posted:Yes, and I anticipated and countered this response in the other paragraph you conveniently excised from the post of mine you quoted. And note this "oh it's not a burden, you have to drive for things anyway  " is a convenient way to give religious parents control over their children for as long as possible. A big part of the push for this is to make it more likely that sophomore Sally needs her mom to drive her across town or to the next county to get birth control. Requiring parental consent for abortions, "don't say gay laws" in schools, taking sex ed out of schools altogether, and laws that require schools to inform parents if the school finds out the child is gay, all of these are intended to make minors (straight and gay) subject to as much abuse from religious parents as possible.
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Feb 16, 2014 20:34
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Look, the other water fountain is just a few inches below mine, alright maybe it's a bit rusty, but can't you just use that one and respect my sincerely held Religious Beliefs?
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Feb 16, 2014 22:42
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Saagonsa posted:Ah, yes, all that birth control that gay couples are in such desperate need for. Now now, I feel very fortunate to have a place where straight people tell me how I should feel about polygamy, incest, birth control... And occasionally gay marriage!
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Feb 16, 2014 22:56
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VitalSigns posted:laws that require schools to inform parents if the school finds out the child is gay Where the hell do these exist? Good god that is fowl.
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Feb 16, 2014 23:39
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Lutha Mahtin posted:Yes, and I anticipated and countered this response in the other paragraph you conveniently excised from the post of mine you quoted. Your response was "we can't really know so I'm going to believe what I already believe". VitalSigns posted:No, they are. The pharmacies do stock birth control. Married women can get birth control. The pharmacists in question selectively deny it to unmarried women because it's against their religious beliefs to sell it to sluts. There aren't any laws that require pharmacies to stock condoms, for example, but if they do they can't refuse to sell condoms to a couple of dudes holding hands because they'll use it for homosex. Do you have a link to this? computer parts fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 23:50
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:Now now, I feel very fortunate to have a place where straight people tell me how I should feel about polygamy, incest, birth control... Almost always bad, a horrible crime, a great idea if you don't want to get pregnant or get someone pregnant, and a fantastic idea that should be mandatory for everyone. You're welcome!
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Feb 17, 2014 00:05
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computer parts posted:Do you have a link to this? Here's a link on the relevant states that have legislated on this issue.
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Feb 17, 2014 00:08
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I knew about the laws relating to birth control, I was curious about the married part specifically. e: Interestingly Texas is not one of these states when I thought they had been.
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Feb 17, 2014 00:09
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Mercury_Storm posted:Where the hell do these exist? Good god that is fowl. Yeah, this is just unimaginably awful, but at the same time hilarious because I'm imagining what enforcement would be like. Do they have a centralized server listing who has been determined gay, or do parents get a call every time a new teacher finds out ("did you know your child is-" "YES now stop calling me"). What's their standard for gay detection and what does the training that teaches these standards to staff look like?
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Feb 17, 2014 05:00
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Blue Footed Booby posted:Yeah, this is just unimaginably awful, but at the same time hilarious because I'm imagining what enforcement would be like. Do they have a centralized server listing who has been determined gay, or do parents get a call every time a new teacher finds out ("did you know your child is-" "YES now stop calling me"). What's their standard for gay detection and what does the training that teaches these standards to staff look like? From what I've seen, it consists of the administration berating gay kids and singling them out for discipline until they act out and get a parent-teacher conference called, at which point they tell the parents of their kid's "deviant" behavior if they're a "good church-going family" or just directly suspend them/suggest "alternative school" if they're godless heathens.
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Feb 17, 2014 05:05
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CheesyDog posted:From what I've seen, it consists of the administration berating gay kids and singling them out for discipline until they act out and get a parent-teacher conference called, at which point they tell the parents of their kid's "deviant" behavior if they're a "good church-going family" or just directly suspend them/suggest "alternative school" if they're godless heathens. The worst thing is that there's so many ways you can phrase it to make it sound legitimate. You're just letting the parents know so that they can protect the kid from mean bullies in the neighborhood and at school! You're letting them know so they can tell the therapist that the kid is totally going to because he's depressed! And so on.
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Feb 17, 2014 06:26
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Mercury_Storm posted:Where the hell do these exist? Good god that is fowl. Mostly conservative "Christian" areas. The idea is that the good, upstanding "Christian" parents can be made aware of the hellspawn in their midst so that it may be "cast out, into the streets, into the hail of stones cast by the righteous, that their blood may flow like water, and their filth be washed away to the pit of flames from whence it came!" -A Southern Baptist Minister. Still remember that sermon, so eloquent. 
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Feb 17, 2014 06:50
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Those schools will also tell the parents if the kid might be atheist, or might listen to the wrong kind of music, or basically anything that would conflict with being a perfect christian.
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Feb 17, 2014 07:00
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Jesus that's sounds like one hell of dystopia.
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Feb 17, 2014 08:32
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It would be funny if these weren't the issues causing devastatingly high suicide rates among LGBT youth.
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Feb 17, 2014 09:14
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Kurtofan posted:Jesus that's sounds like one hell of dystopia. It's just an extension of the overall culture in places like that, as they're almost entirely the kind of places where not going to the right church gets you out-and-out discrimination around town.
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Feb 17, 2014 15:54
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Install Windows posted:It's just an extension of the overall culture in places like that, as they're almost entirely the kind of places where not going to the right church gets you out-and-out discrimination around town. Luckily nobody lives in small towns.
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Feb 17, 2014 16:07
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Freudian posted:Luckily nobody lives in small towns. They should have already budgeted for their discrimination, all going to a church of a different sect like that.
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Feb 17, 2014 17:59
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http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022921079_marriageconversionxml.html Washington state is converting all same-sex domestic partnerships into marriages. Connecticut and New Hampshire did a similar thing with civil unions after the legislature/court case granted marriage. The article makes an interesting point about the dilemma of couples who are no longer together, but have not legally dissolved their union.
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Feb 17, 2014 18:24
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Install Windows posted:Those schools will also tell the parents if the kid might be atheist, or might listen to the wrong kind of music, or basically anything that would conflict with being a perfect christian. Your kid listens to Marylin Manson which turned him into an atheist and being an atheist turned him gay. Just thought you should know.
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Feb 17, 2014 18:49
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I can't get the site to load because apparently the internet hates me, but it looks like the Kansas Senate has already nixed (or is planning to) the illustrious discrimination bill. If you can get it to work, the link that's going around is this one.
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Feb 17, 2014 19:02
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