politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > politically-loaded maps: sputtering flemishly

DrSunshine: Mar 23, 2009; Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!

Grand Fromage posted:

Quit and find a new job and hope they'll pay you. There are also labor boards you can go to and make a fuss to get your back pay, which works sometimes. The key being that is private so it doesn't trigger the libel laws.

I've been lucky so far but it's common enough that "Does your boss pay you?" is a standard question you ask if you get to talk to whoever you're replacing/someone else who works there. And there is a much larger segment of places that will pay you, but either try to skim off some of your salary or pay late all the time.

Holy poo poo. :psyduck:

So apparently there's a first-world country out there with even worse labor laws than the USA.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 05:10

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# ? May 23, 2024 17:38

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

DrSunshine posted:

Holy poo poo. So apparently there's a first-world country out there with even worse labor laws than the USA.

That's the thing. The labor laws are actually much better on paper, but you'd have to confront someone and stand up for yourself to use them. And that's not done, so everyone gets hosed over by their employers more or less constantly.

Koreans have it worse, too. Contracts with western employees are more generous and reasonable since they're aware no one would ever come here if they treated us as badly as Korean workers are treated. As usual the laborers from India/SE Asia/etc have the worst of it.

First world is also something of a stretch. Korea's well on its way but I'd place it right at the end of developing or just starting to be developed. It was still quite a shithole even 10-15 years ago.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 05:15

A Meat: Jun 28, 2013; CERTIFIED FRESH AS HELL DOC MAKER

What the hell? :psyduck:

I also live in a country which is also kind of a lovely "developed" country, but that sounds really terrible.

And I thought getting like 200$ a month for full-time national service (as in a full-time entry-level job) in my country was bad.

Not getting paid for work sounds way worse that getting paid badly, it's frankly unimaginable to me that you could get in legal trouble for complaining that you don't get paid.

More importantly, how have I have not heard about this before? How are there no riots constantly going on in South Korea about this? (or are there? I'm now aware that I'm ignorant about what's going on in S.Korea)

# ? Feb 16, 2014 14:17

LimburgLimbo: Feb 10, 2008

A Meat posted:

What the hell? I also live in a country which is also kind of a lovely "developed" country, but that sounds really terrible.

And I thought getting like 200$ a month for full-time national service (as in a full-time entry-level job) in my country was bad.

Not getting paid for work sounds way worse that getting paid badly, it's frankly unimaginable to me that you could get in legal trouble for complaining that you don't get paid.

More importantly, how have I have not heard about this before? How are there no riots constantly going on in South Korea about this? (or are there? I'm now aware that I'm ignorant about what's going on in S.Korea)

Well rioting is basically Korea's national pastime. But really not getting paid for work is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to how much it sucks to live in Korea.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 14:26

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

A Meat posted:

More importantly, how have I have not heard about this before? How are there no riots constantly going on in South Korea about this? (or are there? I'm now aware that I'm ignorant about what's going on in S.Korea)

Uhh, when did you last see Americans riot over having to pay six trillion dollars for an appendectomy? The world is a lovely place and most of the time people don't bother to get in a fuss about it.

e:

LimburgLimbo posted:

Well rioting is basically Korea's national pastime.

I did not know this.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 14:27

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Ras Het posted:

I did not know this.

Depends on your definition of riot and what time period we're talking about. There haven't been any in a while, especially now that protesting is more or less illegal.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 14:32

Lawman 0: Aug 17, 2010

Grand Fromage posted:

Depends on your definition of riot and what time period we're talking about. There haven't been any in a while, especially now that protesting is more or less illegal.

Wait what? :psyduck:

# ? Feb 16, 2014 15:19

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Lawman 0 posted:

Wait what?

The laws haven't changed that I'm aware of, but the new administration has been massively cracking down on all dissent and protest. Which is darkly amusing after Park Geun-hye spent energy in the campaign saying "hey don't judge me because my dad was a brutal dictator". There were railroad strikes and protests recently, the biggest incident of which was when they wanted to arrest I believe eight of the leadership. They stormed the KORAIL office with 5,000 (not exaggerating) police and gassed people and such. The leadership weren't even there. There have been other gassed protests, some of which are related to the scandal about how the Korean intelligence agency manipulated the election to get PGH in.

There's also been a small scale protest thing going around on college campuses, the government directed the colleges to stamp it out or they'd do it for them. I personally saw an incident in my city, there were a few people gathering for a street corner protest about a business something or other. My Korean's not very good so I only understood bits and pieces. Anyway, the whole protest consisted of five old women, and within about fifteen minutes six police cars and vans rolled in and about thirty guys in full riot gear hauled them off. This is becoming more and more frequent.

Anti-Japan protests are still okay, there are banners at city hall organizing one for next week.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 15:30

Mano: Jul 11, 2012

PittTheElder posted:

Also that date would be like 2-3 months later or something ridiculous, because you were expected to give your current employer that much notice.

Welcome to the rest of the world which hasn't at-will firing the employee.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 17:59

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Mano posted:

Welcome to the rest of the world which hasn't at-will firing the employee.

The employee isn't being fired, they're quitting.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 18:01

Mu Cow: Oct 26, 2003

Mano posted:

Welcome to the rest of the world which hasn't at-will firing the employee.

This, in some regards, strikes me more as a cultural thing. I have found that in countries where politeness is highly valued, people don't like discussing bad news. Therefore they will avoid a subject and simply hope that all involved parties will simply forget about the matter. I haven't been to India, but I can see a situation like this arisen in other countries I've been to. The prospective employee is too polite to tell an employer they don't want the job, so they avoid saying anything until asked directly about it.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 18:09

Vivian Darkbloom: Jul 14, 2004

Official cycling routes, apparently. Nebraska is NOT taking this poo poo.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 20:00

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Mu Cow posted:

This, in some regards, strikes me more as a cultural thing. I have found that in countries where politeness is highly valued, people don't like discussing bad news. Therefore they will avoid a subject and simply hope that all involved parties will simply forget about the matter. I haven't been to India, but I can see a situation like this arisen in other countries I've been to. The prospective employee is too polite to tell an employer they don't want the job, so they avoid saying anything until asked directly about it.

Indeed, this was exactly the sort of vibe our staff was picking up over there.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 20:13

Phlegmish: Jul 2, 2011

Grand Fromage posted:

That's the thing. The labor laws are actually much better on paper, but you'd have to confront someone and stand up for yourself to use them. And that's not done, so everyone gets hosed over by their employers more or less constantly.

It's weird since I associate South Korea with ultra-violent protests about abstract issues such as import tariffs on a particular product, so based on that I wouldn't say they're not inclined to stand up for their rights.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 22:07

fermun: Nov 4, 2009

Vivian Darkbloom posted:

Official cycling routes, apparently. Nebraska is NOT taking this poo poo.

To be pedantic, the Adventure Cycling Association (blue route) is a private nonprofit that maintains trails themselves. The Rail trail in South Dakota and the one in Nebraska are both maintained by their respective state parks departments. So really it's Montana who's not taking it.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 22:38

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

Phlegmish posted:

It's weird since I associate South Korea with ultra-violent protests about abstract issues such as import tariffs on a particular product, so based on that I wouldn't say they're not inclined to stand up for their rights.

Context. Government or anti-foreign protests are culturally acceptable, standing up to your boss isn't.

# ? Feb 16, 2014 23:45

oldman: Dec 15, 2003; grumpy

Grand Fromage posted:

Context. Government or anti-foreign protests are culturally acceptable, standing up to your boss isn't.

Also, "Koreans don't complain" unless its something to do with the weather.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 01:05

Grand Fromage: Jan 30, 2006; L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?

oldman posted:

Also, "Koreans don't complain" unless its something to do with the weather.

Or anything else, unless it would involve confronting the boss or any actual social issues.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 04:49

pig slut lisa: Mar 5, 2012; irl is good

This look into South Korea is fascinating. Keep it coming!

On a different topic:

Daniel Hertz posted:

Zoning: It�s just insane

So one thing that happens when I bring up the fact that Chicago, like pretty much all American cities, criminalizes dense development to the detriment of all sorts of people (I�m great at parties!) is that whoever I�m talking to expresses their incredulity by referencing the incredible numbers of high-rises built in and around downtown over the last decade or so. Then I try to explain that, while impressive, the development downtown is really pretty exceptional, and that 96% of the city or so doesn�t allow that stuff, or anything over 4 floors or so, even in neighborhoods where people are lining up to live, waving their money and bidding up housing prices.

Then they make some non-committal grunt and change the subject.

But I�m not BSing here. Not only does the city make it illegal in the vast, vast majority of the city to build super-dense towers or medium-dense midrises in very high-demand neighborhoods like Lincoln Park or Wicker Park, but it even criminalizes your standard two- or three-flat apartment building in the majority of neighborhoods, meaning that a developer who wants to build some moderate-price housing in a moderate-demand neighborhood (like, say, Portage Park) has to deal with local segregationists.

Let me say that again: In most Chicago neighborhoods, it is illegal to build anything other than single family homes.

You don�t believe me. That would be really weird, you say. Well, here�s the map:

There you go. Everywhere that�s red, it�s single family homes or nothing. And that makes it look better than it really is. If we highlight all the places where you can�t build anything residential at all � because the land�s been zoned for manufacturing, or parks, or whatever � the places where you can even legally build a two-flat get squeezed even more:

Red = single family homes only. Yellow = non-residential use.

What kind of public interest could this possibly be serving?

PS � It is of course the case that developers sometimes get concessions from aldermen to rezone a plot of land they would like to build on. But when that happens, they�re susceptible to massive pushback from locals who would like to use the power of the government to segregate themselves from lower-income people, or to establish local housing supply ceilings for their benefit at great expense to everyone else.

In any case, the proof is in the pudding: walk around any of the city�s desirable non-downtown neighborhoods and see how many developments that added net housing units have been built in the last 10 years. The answer is precious few.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 05:05

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Nice Davis posted:

This look into South Korea is fascinating. Keep it coming!

On a different topic:

That block in the top left should be yellow. Unless you fancy building tenement blocks on the runways of O'Hare.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 10:37

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Looks like real America needs to get it's poo poo in order.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 11:26

Lycus: Aug 5, 2008; Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.

Is that Charlotte? I guess I underestimated that area. There are areas in blue that I kinda assumed would be above it.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 11:45

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Lycus posted:

Is that Charlotte? I guess I underestimated that area. There are areas in blue that I kinda assumed would be above it.

It's not really in perfect order. Missing Atlanta, Denver, etc. It's more for the visual. And I guess some of them are needed in blue for the 50/50 parity.

Charlotte apparently has a pretty impressive economy, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte,_North_Carolina#Economy

# ? Feb 17, 2014 11:49

Star Man: Jun 1, 2008; There's a star maaaaaan
Over the rainbow

Wow. Denver and Salt Lake aren't even on the map.

And a lot of other major US cities. :drat:

# ? Feb 17, 2014 11:57

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Like said, I'd imagine if they included all major cities it wouldn't be 50/50 anymore. Cities rule, I mean let's be serious, what the hell are the Red areas good for anyway? :v:

# ? Feb 17, 2014 12:32

Lycus: Aug 5, 2008; Half the posters in this forum have been made up. This website is a goddamn ghost town.

I guess I assumed that there was an order to it. I.e. that the least economically significant orange city was just above the 50% line, and the most economically significant blue city was just below it. Maybe not.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 12:40

Star Man: Jun 1, 2008; There's a star maaaaaan
Over the rainbow

DarkCrawler posted:

Like said, I'd imagine if they included all major cities it wouldn't be 50/50 anymore. Cities rule, I mean let's be serious, what the hell are the Red areas good for anyway?

Your natural resources.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 13:13

Torrannor: Apr 27, 2013; ---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE

Star Man posted:

Your natural resources.

Food.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 13:17

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Torrannor posted:

Food.

Transport infrastructure too.

(though ports could probably get you by for everywhere outside of the Great Lakes region)

# ? Feb 17, 2014 13:21

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Oh yeah I guess that's why you guys let 'em vote.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 13:24

Star Man: Jun 1, 2008; There's a star maaaaaan
Over the rainbow

DarkCrawler posted:

Oh yeah I guess that's why you guys let 'em vote.

You know, as I've gotten older I've also grown to resent people making fun of where I'm from even if a place like Wyoming is culturally a shithole.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 13:36

DarkCrawler: Apr 6, 2009; by vyelkin

Star Man posted:

You know, as I've gotten older I've also grown to resent people making fun of where I'm from even if a place like Wyoming is culturally a shithole.

Oh sorry, the place where I am from makes Wyoming look like Xanadu so I always forget that there are people who are still capable of feeling like that.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 13:45

Star Man: Jun 1, 2008; There's a star maaaaaan
Over the rainbow

DarkCrawler posted:

Oh sorry, the place where I am from makes Wyoming look like Xanadu so I always forget that there are people who are still capable of feeling like that.

My comment wasn't directed at you personally. It's something that I've realized over time. Like, I get very resentful over being hazed about where I'm from and I don't appreciate the assumptions or baggage that comes with it. There was someone I knew that moved to Wyoming from Hawaii because her mother did for reasons and she couldn't handle being away from the womb at the age of 23. Despite being from Honolulu, all she could do was talk about how much she hated Wyoming and how things are done in Hawaii and how much better it was and on and on. I like meeting people and knowing about where they're from, but I don't like it when people come to the place I call home and bad mouth it non-stop as an outsider. It'd be the same thing with people from out-of-state at UW and it drove me nuts.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 14:01

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Star Man posted:

You know, as I've gotten older I've also grown to resent people making fun of where I'm from even if a place like Wyoming is culturally a shithole.

It's because they're quite clearly talking from ignorance. I get the same thing with Detroit (large swatches of my family are from there) because people just say "hurr Robocop" and spout memes about it.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 14:01

Star Man: Jun 1, 2008; There's a star maaaaaan
Over the rainbow

computer parts posted:

It's because they're quite clearly talking from ignorance. I get the same thing with Detroit (large swatches of my family are from there) because people just say "hurr Robocop" and spout memes about it.

For all the poo poo we give the South, it's where so much of the best literature in the country's history has come from. I also get upset over the idea of people from the South moving somewhere and trying to hide their accent because they're embarrassed by it and think people will think of them as some kind of idiot.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 14:04

pig slut lisa: Mar 5, 2012; irl is good

TinTower posted:

That block in the top left should be yellow. Unless you fancy building tenement blocks on the runways of O'Hare.

Yeah, he also forgot to mark Midway and the Lake Calumet area yellow.

I'm curious what you mean by "tenement blocks" though. Are you saying that two flats are tenements? The building code prohibits construction of the type of overcrowded, underplumbed housing stock most people would identify as a tenement.

pig slut lisa fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Feb 17, 2014

# ? Feb 17, 2014 14:21

DrSunshine: Mar 23, 2009; Did I just say that out loud~~?!!!

DarkCrawler posted:

Looks like real America needs to get it's poo poo in order.

Wait, what does that mean, though? Economic activity split by half? So does that mean that in the orange parts is where half of the economic activity of the country takes place?

I am also stunned that the only part of the Bay Area that's orange is the South Bay / San Jose region. San Francisco doesn't even show up!! That's very surprising.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 16:34

A Fancy 400 lbs: Jul 24, 2008

TinTower posted:

That block in the top left should be yellow. Unless you fancy building tenement blocks on the runways of O'Hare.

I'd assume that it's technically legal to build them there, even if it'd be de facto stupid/impossible.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 16:51

Redeye Flight: Mar 26, 2010; God, I'm so tired. What the hell did I post last night?

DrSunshine posted:

Wait, what does that mean, though? Economic activity split by half? So does that mean that in the orange parts is where half of the economic activity of the country takes place?

I am also stunned that the only part of the Bay Area that's orange is the South Bay / San Jose region. San Francisco doesn't even show up!! That's very surprising.

My guess is, the orange areas represent the smallest portion of the country that could be said to contain as close to half of its economic production and value as possible. That's why you have Minneapolis/St. Paul but not Atlanta, since while I love the hell out of my hometown state I'm pretty sure Atlanta's GDP is higher.

Or something like that, I don't know. Also I think you can see San Francisco proper as that tiny orange spike separated from the South Bay/San Jose chunks. The map seems to be deciding not to distinguish water for San Francisco Bay.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 17:05

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# ? May 23, 2024 17:38

Ammat The Ankh: Sep 7, 2010; Now, attempt to defeat me!
And I shall become a living legend!

I'd also imagine a lot of the economic activity in the Bay Area is very concentrated into a few cities, so it looks more sparse than it is.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 19:51

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