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NofrikinfuN posted:Wait, you can have more than four copies of something in limited? Has that always been a thing? Yes. There are no card limits in Limited beyond the number you draft or open.
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Feb 18, 2014 18:30
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That is why Zendikar x3 was the best draft format. Eight welkin terns before anybody figured out how to play it. 
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Feb 18, 2014 18:33
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I think a big missed opportunity for Wizards was not making the Duel Decks Standard legal. It would give them a chance to inject a good 50-70 choice cards into the Standard environment and would make them must-buys for serious players while giving a leg-up to casuals who pick them up to learn the game. The event decks are fine, but from the stack of them at my LGS, I don't think they're selling as well as they had hoped. Another interesting option for reprints would be something similar to Conspiracy: a draft product with cards focused on an creating an interesting limited (read: draft) environment. The power level wouldn't need to be anywhere near Modern Masters but it could have the same 24 pack box size and a lower ~$50-$60 price point. There are enough cards in Magic's history that they would be able to make it mostly or all reprints without negatively affecting prices in the secondary market. For example, a pared down, ~160 card version of Kamigawa block focused on the non-Arcane, non-Spirit side of things could play incredibly well and bring back a few reprints that might otherwise never see the light of day again. A product like that every year probably wouldn't be feasible, but one every once in a while would be nice. Having a 4th set product every summer is nice, but something small mid-block could really shake up the Standard environment.
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Feb 18, 2014 18:33
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Once drafted five copies of Pharika's Mender to play along with Dredge Scorpion and Hythonia. It still ranks as my favorite limited draft.
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Feb 18, 2014 18:34
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I have been playing Murder Goats with some friends on Cockatrice and I swear that program hates the deck. In 30+ games I haven't seen a Purphoros in the first 20 cards.
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Feb 18, 2014 19:15
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NofrikinfuN posted:Wait, you can have more than four copies of something in limited? Has that always been a thing? Clearly you never played Coldsnap draft (be glad, it's awful).
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Feb 18, 2014 19:37
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Emerson Cod posted:Another interesting option for reprints would be something similar to Conspiracy: a draft product with cards focused on an creating an interesting limited (read: draft) environment. The power level wouldn't need to be anywhere near Modern Masters but it could have the same 24 pack box size and a lower ~$50-$60 price point. There are enough cards in Magic's history that they would be able to make it mostly or all reprints without negatively affecting prices in the secondary market. I don't understand. Aside from the price point, isn't that exactly what Conspiracy is?
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Feb 18, 2014 19:54
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GonSmithe posted:Clearly you never played Coldsnap draft (be glad, it's awful). I bet ripple was an interesting mechanic in that draft. I don't win much, so drafting isn't a good value for me. I did a few drafts/sealed events online when Mirrodin and Kamigawa were in Standard, but I didn't have a house payment then. Anymore, I just spend $20 or so on tickets per year and buy singles from bots.
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Feb 18, 2014 20:06
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Nemico posted:I don't understand. Aside from the price point, isn't that exactly what Conspiracy is? Emerson Cod I think is saying they could revisit old blocks that were good to draft via this method.
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Feb 18, 2014 20:06
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Nemico posted:I don't understand. Aside from the price point, isn't that exactly what Conspiracy is? We know basically nothing about the cards in Conspiracy at this point. It could be full of modern staples, it could be completely garbage for constructed. I'm actually kind of hoping it isn't peppered with cards that you open P3P1 and say "Well, this isn't in my colours, there's 3 commons in the pack I'd rather have for this deck, but I'm not passing it because it's a $50 card." It would be nice if the draft set actually got drafted instead of hoarded for value.
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Feb 18, 2014 20:16
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Yeah, I hate that too, but I don't think that can be avoided in a sanctioned environment. When my group buys packs or boxes we tend to host no-charge drafts for ourselves, but keep the cards for whoever bought them. My LGS only plays limited for pre-releases, so this is the best way for us to draft, and it eliminates the rare-drafting problem.
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Feb 18, 2014 20:24
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For another possible reprint avenue, why couldn't Wizards start leaning a little bit back towards core sets being 100% reprints? Not reprinting Bob or Goyf every core set obviously, but would it be so bad to see a couple staples like Bolt or Path show up in a core set one year, then a couple other low-cost staples the next year? Plus since going to the "core sets can have new cards" idea core sets also rotate each year, so they won't be in Standard as long.
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Feb 18, 2014 20:33
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Nemico posted:I don't understand. Aside from the price point, isn't that exactly what Conspiracy is? Sort of? The idea would be something like Coldsnap except not poo poo and at a slightly lower price point due to it being almost all reprints.
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Feb 18, 2014 20:34
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C-Euro posted:For another possible reprint avenue, why couldn't Wizards start leaning a little bit back towards core sets being 100% reprints? Not reprinting Bob or Goyf every core set obviously, but would it be so bad to see a couple staples like Bolt or Path show up in a core set one year, then a couple other low-cost staples the next yeah? Plus since going to the "core sets can have new cards" idea core sets also rotate each year, so they won't be in Standard as long. The biggest reason Modern Masters worked as a 100% reprint set is that it was able to include basically any card, regardless of complexity. Core sets, though, have a lot of restrictions not just on what cards can even show up, but also the rarities those cards can have. I'd rather see new cards brought in at the Basic level than Wizards try to create an enjoyable limited format out of only existing Basic-level cards of a certain power level. Doubly so because we tried that in the past, and the formats themselves were pretty awful!
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Feb 18, 2014 20:37
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C-Euro posted:For another possible reprint avenue, why couldn't Wizards start leaning a little bit back towards core sets being 100% reprints? Not reprinting Bob or Goyf every core set obviously, but would it be so bad to see a couple staples like Bolt or Path show up in a core set one year, then a couple other low-cost staples the next year? Plus since going to the "core sets can have new cards" idea core sets also rotate each year, so they won't be in Standard as long. The thing keeping Path and Bolt out of the Core Set is their power level for Standard. They put Bolt in M11 remember. And M13 brought back Rancor. They're quite willing to reprint staple cards in core sets, but only if they think Standard can handle it. I think the reason they moved to a larger percentage of new cards in Core Sets is simple that packs full of new cards sell better than packs full of cards everyone has already. Thragtusk and Archangel of Thune probably move a lot more packs than reprinting Titans for another year would.
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Feb 18, 2014 21:17
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C-Euro posted:For another possible reprint avenue, why couldn't Wizards start leaning a little bit back towards core sets being 100% reprints? Not reprinting Bob or Goyf every core set obviously, but would it be so bad to see a couple staples like Bolt or Path show up in a core set one year, then a couple other low-cost staples the next year? Plus since going to the "core sets can have new cards" idea core sets also rotate each year, so they won't be in Standard as long. Core sets used to be all reprints, but the lack of new cards made their sales figures very low compared to all-new sets. I think the healthy mix of new / old works really well for core sets.
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Feb 18, 2014 21:19
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Well yeah, I'm not saying they should go back to all reprints but making a couple more of those reprints as widely-used cards increases the supply and gets those cards into new players' hands, making it easier for them to crack into Modern if they want to. But yes, they'd have to be careful about what staples get reprinted when. And I know Thoughtseize being in Theros has annoyed a lot of people but reprinting staples in expansions (when appropriate) could work too. But then you start getting in to people bemoaning the lower number of new cards each year or something.
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Feb 18, 2014 21:57
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Emerson Cod posted:I think a big missed opportunity for Wizards was not making the Duel Decks Standard legal. It would give them a chance to inject a good 50-70 choice cards into the Standard environment and would make them must-buys for serious players while giving a leg-up to casuals who pick them up to learn the game. The event decks are fine, but from the stack of them at my LGS, I don't think they're selling as well as they had hoped. Except that the fall duel decks feature cards that literally just haven't been released yet, plus having random cards from older sets be legal sounds like a terribad idea. C-Euro posted:Well yeah, I'm not saying they should go back to all reprints but making a couple more of those reprints as widely-used cards increases the supply and gets those cards into new players' hands, making it easier for them to crack into Modern if they want to. But yes, they'd have to be careful about what staples get reprinted when. The trick that WotC is working on is increasing the supply without trashing the secondary value. A core set is a product that's widely available for a solid year, not really a thing that's conducive to that.
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Feb 18, 2014 22:08
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Yes instead they are increasing supply by such a small amount it increases demand tot he point that the cards in question cost more than they started with. Excellent planning.
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Feb 18, 2014 22:13
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C-Euro posted:Well yeah, I'm not saying they should go back to all reprints but making a couple more of those reprints as widely-used cards increases the supply and gets those cards into new players' hands, making it easier for them to crack into Modern if they want to. But yes, they'd have to be careful about what staples get reprinted when. I mean, they did just put Mutavault in a core set, and Lightning Bolt was around for a few years before that. The trick is to balance the power level, because even those low-cost staples warp parts of the format when they're around in Standard. toadee posted:Yes instead they are increasing supply by such a small amount it increases demand tot he point that the cards in question cost more than they started with. Excellent planning. The quantity itself doesn't cause that, it's just that the quantity is small enough to be vulnerable to price-fixing.
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Feb 18, 2014 22:13
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I don't think anyone thinks Tarmogoyfs should become $1 or anything but if they full stop do not want to move the needle at all, then they just shouldn't reprint anything. It's not like you can't buy Modern staples at any price, there are plenty of them on SCG or Ebay or whatever. The only reason to reprint them is because you're acknowledging that, while they shouldn't be worthless, the current price is too high. Shocklands and Thoughtseize are excellent examples of what actually happens when you reprint stuff instead of just theorycrafting. They were absolutely poured into the market, relatively speaking, and it just made the price settle out in the reasonable $8-15 range. If they were mythic instead of rare, it might have been $20-40, you know, like good mythics usually are when they're in print. That is a fine place for retailers to be moving singles at. They did not become Weimar era deutschmarks or whatever the usual scary figment of the imagination is. Now, a specifically Modern-only reprint product might require a bit of finetuning of the 'shockland formula' because you don't have Standard sales propping the demand up, but the solution to that is to push Modern more and more.  edit: once again, I just checked and SCG has like 80 Tarmogoyfs of various sorts in stock at this very moment. You can go and buy them. Supply qua supply is not and will not soon be the issue, and "increasing supply in such a way so as not to meaningfully affect the price" is a pointless exercise. JerryLee fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 22:18
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toadee posted:Yes instead they are increasing supply by such a small amount it increases demand tot he point that the cards in question cost more than they started with. Excellent planning. That's not actually a direct result of MMA, calling MMA a failure because prices on cards went up after more people got into Modern because it got wider exposure as a result of MMA being a thing is pretty dumb. Especially when they were up front about why MMA was getting a small printing and that if it went well they'd do larger print runs in the future.
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Feb 18, 2014 22:25
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Literally The Worst posted:That's not actually a direct result of MMA, calling MMA a failure because prices on cards went up after more people got into Modern because it got wider exposure as a result of MMA being a thing is pretty dumb. Especially when they were up front about why MMA was getting a small printing and that if it went well they'd do larger print runs in the future. This is why I said 'excellent planning', because anyone would be able to figure that a massive push for Modern, a massive Modern Masters GP, and a promise to print more Modern 'sometime' would drive demand through the roof. Now they're looking at possibly shooting themselves in the foot by losing a ton of that because they didn't have the forsight to realize a huge uptick in demand would lead to a massive price hike across the board that one tiny reprint set wouldn't do anything for.
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Feb 18, 2014 22:27
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Can you reasonably expect Wizards to predict that GP Las Vegas would get almost double the amount of players of the previous biggest GP ever?
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Feb 18, 2014 22:32
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I can reasonably expect people to predict that after saying 'HEY GUYS WE ARE GOING TO SUPPORT MODERN A TON MODERN AT FNM MODERN REPRINTS MODERN EVENT DECKS MODERN IS GOING TO BE AWESOME', there is going to be a significant increase in demand for cards in Modern.
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Feb 18, 2014 22:35
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The state of modern really stinks right now. Card prices are insane, and at least where I am, there are very few events. So, like, the actual worst scenario.
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Feb 18, 2014 22:39
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Snacksmaniac posted:Is this one of you in the Scapeshift video? I know this is super late but its me in this video playing against my literal worst matchup.
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Feb 18, 2014 22:42
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ScarletBrother posted:The state of modern really stinks right now. Card prices are insane, and at least where I am, there are very few events. So, like, the actual worst scenario. Agreed, but the other thing to remember is that modern is a YOUNG format. It has been around since early 2011. Compared to the age of standard, sealed, draft, legacy and vintage its a baby. Further its an eternal format, so its likely that people will buy into it over time. As has been mentioned before, in regards to responding to new events, Wizards moves like an oil tanker, slowly and ponderously. Yes there will be change, and I expect a change in reprint policy to reduce the cost of these modern staples. There will be a fetchland reprint, as Wizards wants Modern to be a thing. They want modern to be a fun and accessible alternative to legacy. They are treading lightly on the reprints, and as pissed as I am that they haven't reprinted Remand doesn't mean they aren't going to. They put mutavault in m14, thoughtseize in theros, Shocks in Return to Ravnica, they are seeding modern staples in each expansion, but they are playing a long game so as not to devalue all of the cards at once. They want to minimize shocks to the secondary market as much as possible, and unfortunately, what they are doing is probably the best way to handle it. Not that it isnt irritating as hell waiting for a sufficient print run of V-cliques, Cryptic Commands, Remands, Fetches, Path etc. Unfortunatley, their method of reprint is probably for the best.......even though it is frustrating. Besides, these cards that all us spikey tournament people want, are confusing and relatively off-putting to most casual players. How many casual players are going to understand why v-clique, or cryptic command is good. Why would they want to play a fetchland? Yes we understand they are good, but to the noobish casual player, they are worse than useless, they are confusing, and either make you lose life, or don't seem to do anything (v-clique). So they don't want to reprint to many of these but they will slowly......... It does kinda suck though.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:01
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ScarletBrother posted:The state of modern really stinks right now. Card prices are insane, and at least where I am, there are very few events. So, like, the actual worst scenario. from accesibility pov, yeah, its awful. from gameplay its fun as hell. I love modern. Just buy affinity, the deck is like $350ish
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Feb 18, 2014 23:01
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toadee posted:I can reasonably expect people to predict that after saying 'HEY GUYS WE ARE GOING TO SUPPORT MODERN A TON MODERN AT FNM MODERN REPRINTS MODERN EVENT DECKS MODERN IS GOING TO BE AWESOME', there is going to be a significant increase in demand for cards in Modern. Yeah the economics of the price increases that happened with MM are quite interesting. The reprints saw a shift in the supply curve for staples that exerted a downward pressure on prices. The buzz about the reprints increasing availability saw more people jump into the format that saw a shift in the demand curve that exerted upward pressure on prices. The remarkable thing is that the demand curve shift actually outweighed the supply curve shift, so prices actually rose even for the reprinted cards. This means that the modern stapled such as fetches that weren't reprinted should have seen an even greater rise in prices.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:07
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Madmarker posted:So they don't want to reprint to many of these but they will slowly......... It's not that they don't want to reprint them. They don't want to reprint them too much too quickly or in places where they don't belong due to power level or complexity or whatever. WotC's stance is that they'd rather take a while and not have it work as well as they'd hoped at first than print all the cards and blowout the market and not be able to fix it. I cannot blame them for that.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:16
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jassi007 posted:from accesibility pov, yeah, its awful. from gameplay its fun as hell. I love modern. Just buy affinity, the deck is like $350ish I love modern too. I have Melira Pod and Splinter Twin built. I'm looking at building some sort of Gifts Ungiven deck next. I just have the problem of very few events in my area. I'm to the point where I would rather jam practice games of modern all night than play standard FNM.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:23
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They should just do an Eternal Core set every year to supplement the standard Core set.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:23
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A big flaming stink posted:They should just do an Eternal Core set every year to supplement the standard Core set. The worst idea yet.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:25
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Madmarker posted:Further its an eternal format, so its likely that people will buy into it over time. This is just a minor nitpick, but Modern is not an eternal format. So far the only eternal formats are Vintage and Legacy. Modern is a non-rotation format, but it's not eternal. (Eternal means that card legality includes Magic card ever printed with the standard card back and a non-silver border.)
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Feb 18, 2014 23:32
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Literally The Worst posted:The worst idea yet. Is it really? If they decide to do a modern masters like set every other year its almost the same thing.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:34
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jassi007 posted:Is it really? If they decide to do a modern masters like set every other year its almost the same thing. A supplemental product that comes out every 2-3 years (I'm leaning towards three) is vastly different from a thing that comes out every year and remains in print for that entire year.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:39
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Jenx posted:This is just a minor nitpick, but Modern is not an eternal format. So far the only eternal formats are Vintage and Legacy. Modern is a non-rotation format, but it's not eternal. (Eternal means that card legality includes Magic card ever printed with the standard card back and a non-silver border.) "Eternal" really sounds like it should mean "non-rotating".
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Feb 18, 2014 23:41
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Entropic posted:"Eternal" really sounds like it should mean "non-rotating". See, that sounds pretty logical, but as we all know - Magic's relationship with logic is very spotty at times.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:43
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Entropic posted:"Eternal" really sounds like it should mean "non-rotating". It really just means "from all of eternity" meaning back to Alpha/Beta and whatnot, like Legacy and Vintage. Legacy and Vintage also allow cards from supplemental sets like Commander/Planechase and the Duel Decks (meaning cards can enter Legacy/Vintage before Standard/Modern in some scenarios that are pretty much meaningless but interesting).
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