Paradox Grand Strategy: From the Carnival of Lust to the Enlightened Times

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Beamed: Nov 26, 2010; Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.

Autonomous Monster posted:

*Modern climate data, sadly I have been unable to locate gridded datasets for the 17th century

Complicating things yet further from Dibujante, Desertification of the Middle East wasn't nearly as bad as it is now, as well as regions in Central Asia such as Bactria(Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan).

# ? Feb 17, 2014 22:56

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# ? May 29, 2024 23:42

Wolfgang Pauli: Mar 26, 2008; One Three Seven

Beamed posted:

Complicating things yet further from Dibujante, Desertification of the Middle East wasn't nearly as bad as it is now, as well as regions in Central Asia such as Bactria(Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan).

The Aral Sea still existed. The entire Transoxania/Khorasan area was ~~destroyed~~ radically altered by Stalin's ecological projects. The combination of the project falling apart after Stalin's death and the sheer propaganda utility of Soviet Cotton meant Central Asia never had a chance. The Aral Sea was meant to be destroyed from the outset, and Soviet ecologists were surprised that it stuck around so long.

*e* Uzbekistan is one of the world's largest cotton exporters, though, so I suppose it wasn't a total loss. That tiny little scrap of nothing produces one third the amount of cotton grown in the US each year. Their irrigation network is still bullshit, though.

Wolfgang Pauli fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Feb 17, 2014

# ? Feb 17, 2014 23:07

KOGAHAZAN!!: Apr 29, 2013; a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

Dibujante posted:

Let's complicate things by acknowledging that the climate was also radically different due to the Little Ice Age

edit 2: let's super-complicate things by also pointing out that the effects of being tropical = { } can be reproduced in non-tropical places as a result of factors not otherwise modeled (see: the American South).

Beamed posted:

Complicating things yet further from Dibujante, Desertification of the Middle East wasn't nearly as bad as it is now, as well as regions in Central Asia such as Bactria(Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan).

Wolfgang Pauli posted:

The Aral Sea still existed. The entire Transoxania/Khorasan area was ~~destroyed~~ radically altered by Stalin's ecological projects. The combination of the project falling apart after Stalin's death and the sheer propaganda utility of Soviet Cotton meant Central Asia never had a chance. The Aral Sea was meant to be destroyed from the outset, and Soviet ecologists were surprised that it stuck around so long.

NO SHUSH I AM ALREADY HALFWAY THROUGH THE IMPLEMENTATION PHASE DON'T DO THIS TO ME YOU GUYS

I'll just bend over, will I? :negative:

(Good catch with the Aral Sea, though; horse peoples you may keep your grass)

# ? Feb 17, 2014 23:11

Beamed: Nov 26, 2010; Then you have a responsibility that no man has ever faced. You have your fear which could become reality, and you have Godzilla, which is reality.

Wolfgang Pauli posted:

The Aral Sea still existed. The entire Transoxania/Khorasan area was ~~destroyed~~ radically altered by Stalin's ecological projects. The combination of the project falling apart after Stalin's death and the sheer propaganda utility of Soviet Cotton meant Central Asia never had a chance. The Aral Sea was meant to be destroyed from the outset, and Soviet ecologists were surprised that it stuck around so long.

*e* Uzbekistan is one of the world's largest cotton exporters, though, so I suppose it wasn't a total loss. That tiny little scrap of nothing produces one third the amount of cotton grown in the US each year. Their irrigation network is still bullshit, though.

Yeah, I'm honestly amazed the Aral Sea is depicted in EU4 since it's practically nothing nowadays, but Central Asia used to be lush and fertile farmland until fairly recently.

# ? Feb 17, 2014 23:16

PittTheElder: Feb 13, 2012; Yes, it's like a lava lamp.

Its worth stating though that, while things have gotten worse in the last few decades, the Karakum and Kyzyl Kum deserts were still very much a thing at the time. Timur had quite the time trying to cross them once.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 00:04

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Autonomous Monster posted:

NO SHUSH I AM ALREADY HALFWAY THROUGH THE IMPLEMENTATION PHASE DON'T DO THIS TO ME YOU GUYS

I'll just bend over, will I?

(Good catch with the Aral Sea, though; horse peoples you may keep your grass)

Just have to find a copy of ~~Magna Mundi the Game~~ World Stage! :v:

One of the first things they advertised was making the climate period accurate. (Not sure whether that meant 1453, or just the Little Ice Age in general.)

# ? Feb 18, 2014 00:52

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Paradox please find K�ppen classification maps for EU IV's timeframe and implement them in the next expansion, thanks in advance.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 00:54

Wolfgang Pauli: Mar 26, 2008; One Three Seven

Kavak posted:

Paradox please find K�ppen classification maps for EU IV's timeframe and implement them in the next expansion, thanks in advance.

This mod has existed for CK2 practically since release (unless that's what you're referencing and I just missed it :ohdear:

)

# ? Feb 18, 2014 01:22

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

Wolfgang Pauli posted:

This mod has existed for CK2 practically since release (unless that's what you're referencing and I just missed it )

That's not EU IV , which is what Autonomous Monster is trying to mod :colbert:

# ? Feb 18, 2014 01:25

DStecks: Feb 6, 2012

Beamed posted:

Yeah, I'm honestly amazed the Aral Sea is depicted in EU4 since it's practically nothing nowadays, but Central Asia used to be lush and fertile farmland until fairly recently.

The Aral Sea still looked pretty much like it does in EU4 as late as 1989. It would be a pretty spectacular failure of research for it to be absent in EU4.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 06:24

Mantis42: Jul 26, 2010

Even Creative Assembly got the Aral Sea right in Rome II.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 06:26

Mustang: Jun 18, 2006; “We don’t really know where this goes — and I’m not sure we really care.”

One thing EU Rome has I wish the newer paradox games had was it's awesome camera control. The terrain map was actually pretty useful/looked good as well. However the map overall seems pretty small compared to CK2's Europe.

I hope Paradox goes back to the Rome setting again one day, I like the senate system and whatnot so far.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 06:36

MLKQUOTEMACHINE: Oct 22, 2012; Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice-skate uphill

Mustang posted:

One thing EU Rome has I wish the newer paradox games had was it's awesome camera control. The terrain map was actually pretty useful/looked good as well. However the map overall seems pretty small compared to CK2's Europe.

I hope Paradox goes back to the Rome setting again one day, I like the senate system and whatnot so far.

EU Rome was unironically my favorite Paradox game. :smith:

# ? Feb 18, 2014 06:37

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Had a kinda lol bug in Darkest Hour just now. I tried releasing the DRPK but for some reason they only got South Korea. I could then release the ROK with them getting North Korea. And then when I was fixing this with the acceptall cheat, Germany assassinated Stalin.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 06:48

Wiz: May 16, 2004; Nap Ghost

Wolfgang Pauli posted:

I have to wonder, though: is it okay if the AI can't handle it? Would that be period accurate to send thousands to their deaths and then just try again?

No.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 12:04

Dibujante: Jul 27, 2004

Wiz posted:

No.

The Spanish and Portuguese (and others) did pour thousands of deaths into many New World projects that failed until the advent of Quinine, but this is probably taken into account through colonial maintenance costs. In fact, another reason for the whole slavery thing (although faaaar from the strongest one) was that Spain simply didn't have enough Spaniards to fill the New World with all the people it needed in order to do all the work it wanted.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 15:40

maev: Dec 6, 2010; Economically illiterate Tory Boy Bollocks brain.
Keep away from children

The Spanish relationship with the New World (and lets be honest, most every 'nation' in this period to some extent) is pretty well highlighted in Kamen's book on the 'Spanish Empire' as not really deserving the term. The ability for a state in those times to really exert full control over even it's own country, never mind a distant colony is questionable at best - which makes the amount of abstraction in something like EU4 necessary for a remotely playable game. (That is, one where you are the ~Spirit of the Nation~ guiding it through history)

# ? Feb 18, 2014 15:47

Dibujante: Jul 27, 2004

maev posted:

The Spanish relationship with the New World (and lets be honest, most every 'nation' in this period to some extent) is pretty well highlighted in Kamen's book on the 'Spanish Empire' as not really deserving the term. The ability for a state in those times to really exert full control over even it's own country, never mind a distant colony is questionable at best - which makes the amount of abstraction in something like EU4 necessary for a remotely playable game. (That is, one where you are the ~Spirit of the Nation~ guiding it through history)

Yes. It's estimated that between 1/3 and 1/2 of all silver mined in the Spanish new world got redirected to China, rather than to Spain. For a very long time, China guzzled down silver in exchange for silks, spices, and porcelain. And China needed it, too, because their currency at that point was based on bronze coins that were of too little value individually to make large purchases practical, and the central government had already figured out that paper money was easy to devalue, in a series of events that can only be described as "fun".

That said, the Spanish weren't just bringing silver. Many of the region's staple crops (potatoes, sweet potatoes, maize, tomatoes, etc.) also came along with Spanish trade. In fact, the Ming empire's collapse was partially due to a series of bad harvests, caused by substantial erosion, caused by planting maize on marginal land, caused by the need to feed a simply massive population boom in the 1600s, caused by the introduction of new staple crops that could be grown outside of China's rather small rice belt.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 16:59

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Dibujante posted:

That said, the Spanish weren't just bringing silver. Many of the region's staple crops (potatoes, sweet potatoes, maize, tomatoes, etc.) also came along with Spanish trade. In fact, the Ming empire's collapse was partially due to a series of bad harvests, caused by substantial erosion, caused by planting maize on marginal land, caused by the need to feed a simply massive population boom in the 1600s, caused by the introduction of new staple crops that could be grown outside of China's rather small rice belt.

Massive population boom in the 1600s? I thought the boom was after 1700, where the population of China (present day borders) rose from 23% to 37% of the world's population between 1700 and 1820. The period of 1600 to 1700 on the other hand sees massive reduction in the population, though maybe that's the final result of a massive boom + collapse? I haven't really looked into the cause of the numbers I'm working with that much yet.

Speaking of China's population, I'm working out the population-to-manpower ratio and population growth mechanic for my mod, and 1821 China ends up with a base manpower total of over 2,500K if I use 1444 Spain's vanilla numbers as the base. Gonna need some pretty massive administrative penalties to constrain it I think. :eyepop:

# ? Feb 18, 2014 18:53

Friend Commuter: Nov 3, 2009; SO CLEVER I WANT TO FUCK MY OWN BRAIN.; Smellrose

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Speaking of China's population, I'm working out the population-to-manpower ratio and population growth mechanic for my mod, and 1821 China ends up with a base manpower total of over 2,500K if I use 1444 Spain's vanilla numbers as the base. Gonna need some pretty massive administrative penalties to constrain it I think.

paradox_game_design.txt

# ? Feb 18, 2014 19:00

Dibujante: Jul 27, 2004

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Massive population boom in the 1600s? I thought the boom was after 1700, where the population of China (present day borders) rose from 23% to 37% of the world's population between 1700 and 1820. The period of 1600 to 1700 on the other hand sees massive reduction in the population, though maybe that's the final result of a massive boom + collapse? I haven't really looked into the cause of the numbers I'm working with that much yet.

Speaking of China's population, I'm working out the population-to-manpower ratio and population growth mechanic for my mod, and 1821 China ends up with a base manpower total of over 2,500K if I use 1444 Spain's vanilla numbers as the base. Gonna need some pretty massive administrative penalties to constrain it I think.

China's later population booms dwarfed all prior ones (thanks in part to Manchu policies of bringing areas with low population densities under cultivation, and later again thanks to the green revolution) but China put a cool 20 million more people into existence during the early 1600s, which is a lot in a country of 100 million.

e:
Here's an academic paper that takes a more high-level view of things.

I'll TL;DR some interesting factoids for you:

55% of China's land is amendable to maize farming, which makes maize one of the most easily farmed crops in the country.
Maize was introduced in the middle of the 16th century (Miguel Lopez de Legazpi established a trading post on Cebu [the Philippines] around this time).
The adoption of maize increased yield per acre of land by over 50%, mainly due to the ability to cultivate land that was not amendable to rice and wheat. This number is a bit muddled - a lot of this gain results from bringing more acres under cultivation, so how does the value per acreage go up? As I understand it, the way these statistics are gathered is that the output per acre is calculated based on all the acres available to a farmer, even if some are scarcely productive. Maize means that fewer of these scarcely productive acres go uncultivated.
Over the course of 300 years, rice went from accounting for 70% of all output to less than 40%.
One decade of maize planting corresponds to about a 3.3% population increase, which is fairly significant.

This paper is still in revision, so it may just be rejected outright, but it lines up with other research I've seen. Of particular importance to this paper's authors is the question of the "Malthusian trap". To those of you not familiar, it's the notion that agricultural yields are linear, but human population is exponential, so human populations will inevitably be constrained by war and disease once it exceeds its agricultural bounds. The authors' contention is that Europe escaped the Malthusian trap in the late 1700s / early 1800s (riiiiight at the end of EU4) but that China, for inexplicable reasons, did not, despite both societies being vastly transformed by New World crops (even though China accounted for the plurality of human population growth during this time period, many places in Europe experienced 300% growth).

tl;dr mk. 2: Europa Universalis really should be renamed Hispania Universalis because the game is honestly about living in the world that Spain wrought tbh hth.

Dibujante fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Feb 18, 2014

# ? Feb 18, 2014 19:45

brocretin: Nov 15, 2012; yo yo yo i loves virgins

Speaking of which, what was the world population in the EU start and end dates? (obviously it went up quite a lot)

# ? Feb 18, 2014 20:07

Dibujante: Jul 27, 2004

brocretin posted:

Speaking of which, what was the world population in the EU start and end dates? (obviously it went up quite a lot)

World population is estimated to have grown from roughly 300-350 million to just shy of 1 billion. This is in huuuuge part due to the diffusion of crops across the entire world as a result of the Columbian Exchange. Remember, people hadn't figured out the next big population boosters (antibiotics and fertilizer).

# ? Feb 18, 2014 20:15

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Friend Commuter posted:

paradox_game_design.txt

I'm unsure whether you're making fun of Paradox because vanilla China (or non-Europea really) is so underpowered, or me because I mentioned adding massive administrative penalties. Just want to point out that China wouldn't be getting any special treatment here, it would just be the hardest hit of historical countries due to its massive size.* Historically, the population explosion we're talking about here put massive strain on the Chinese administrative system, which wasn't expanded at all to match the larger population, which lead to a situation where a single low level official could supposedly be responsible for administrating 250,000 people on their own.

*Basically, the major benefit of controlling all of China would be that no one else is controlling the territory, since you can only really command the population in the region around the capital. That in turn means that if China splits into rival kingdoms, the individual kingdoms will still be able to command armies that match those of the largest European states.

Dibujante posted:

China's later population booms dwarfed all prior ones (thanks in part to Manchu policies of bringing areas with low population densities under cultivation, and later again thanks to the green revolution) but China put a cool 20 million more people into existence during the early 1600s, which is a lot in a country of 100 million.

Hmm, the numbers I have put china at 160 million in 1600, and only 138 million in 1700. Maybe the difference is down to whether we're talking present day territory versus historical territory.

brocretin posted:

Speaking of which, what was the world population in the EU start and end dates? (obviously it went up quite a lot)

Roughly 400 million at the start, around a billion at the end.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 20:18

Dibujante: Jul 27, 2004

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Hmm, the numbers I have put china at 160 million in 1600, and only 138 million in 1700. Maybe the difference is down to whether we're talking present day territory versus historical territory.

Sources diverge a lot, unfortunately, due to a myriad of local counts and some confusion over where exactly China begins and ends.

A dip is to be expected, since a number of major famines hit right before the Ming dynasty collapsed. However, I've generally seen lower numbers for historical territory China. But I am not an expert on Chinese history :v:

My focus is nearly-modern Germany which is not very relevant.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 20:30

Friend Commuter: Nov 3, 2009; SO CLEVER I WANT TO FUCK MY OWN BRAIN.; Smellrose

A Buttery Pastry posted:

I'm unsure whether you're making fun of Paradox because vanilla China (or non-Europea really) is so underpowered, or me because I mentioned adding massive administrative penalties. Just want to point out that China wouldn't be getting any special treatment here, it would just be the hardest hit of historical countries due to its massive size.* Historically, the population explosion we're talking about here put massive strain on the Chinese administrative system, which wasn't expanded at all to match the larger population, which lead to a situation where a single low level official could supposedly be responsible for administrating 250,000 people on their own.

*Basically, the major benefit of controlling all of China would be that no one else is controlling the territory, since you can only really command the population in the region around the capital. That in turn means that if China splits into rival kingdoms, the individual kingdoms will still be able to command armies that match those of the largest European states.

A little here, a little there. But if/when you actually get a working system where population growth is actually important and a bit less wonkily modelled than EU3, and administration mechanics which make a China-sized population as much as/slightly more than you can actually control without imploding immediately, well, that sounds pretty cool. Best of luck.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 20:45

Cantorsdust: Aug 10, 2008; Infinitely many points, but zero length.

Dibujante posted:

World population is estimated to have grown from roughly 300-350 million to just shy of 1 billion. This is in huuuuge part due to the diffusion of crops across the entire world as a result of the Columbian Exchange. Remember, people hadn't figured out the next big population boosters (antibiotics and fertilizer).

Small pet peeve of mine: proper sanitation systems were far more responsible for saving lives than antibiotics. Antibiotics were a miracle drug at the time, yes, but disease prevention was far more important.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 21:05

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Dibujante posted:

A dip is to be expected, since a number of major famines hit right before the Ming dynasty collapsed. However, I've generally seen lower numbers for historical territory China. But I am not an expert on Chinese history My focus is nearly-modern Germany which is not very relevant.

Yeah, I've basically decided that trying to be 100% accurate is a fool's errand, since the sources might not be accurate, and the system is supposed to diverge dynamically anyway. Plus it's a game, just having the whole thing not insanely skewed is really all that matters.

Friend Commuter posted:

A little here, a little there. But if/when you actually get a working system where population growth is actually important and a bit less wonkily modelled than EU3, and administration mechanics which make a China-sized population as much as/slightly more than you can actually control without imploding immediately, well, that sounds pretty cool. Best of luck.

Conceptually and mathematically, the whole thing doesn't seem that complicated. I've already built up quite a spreadsheet from historical numbers, which I plan to use to balance the population growth events, though I realize of course that I'm in for a world of frustration when I have to actually implement it. I'm kinda used to that though, I've been trying to redo the whole world map out of sheer annoyance with the Paradox projection. Kinda hard to do when your computer is half-way dead though, can't be sure if I've hosed something up, or it's just my computer acting up. Incidentally, that also explains why I've managed to do so much prep work I think, since I can't really implement anything at the moment, nor even play the drat game. :v:

# ? Feb 18, 2014 21:22

Dibujante: Jul 27, 2004

Cantorsdust posted:

Small pet peeve of mine: proper sanitation systems were far more responsible for saving lives than antibiotics. Antibiotics were a miracle drug at the time, yes, but disease prevention was far more important.

Ah, true, I was generalizing advances against disease as 'antibiotics' but a lot of other things were very important, chief among them being sanitation and the antiseptic principle.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 21:24

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

I'm currently reading Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World and it's kind of amusing how there were people like Jan Smuts that wanted to hammer out peace deals on the basis of making pretty borders. Trading parts of Tanganyika, Mozambique, etc just so South Africa "would be a nice, compact shape"

# ? Feb 18, 2014 21:29

KOGAHAZAN!!: Apr 29, 2013; a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Hmm, the numbers I have put china at 160 million in 1600, and only 138 million in 1700. Maybe the difference is down to whether we're talking present day territory versus historical territory.

Maddison, right? I was lucky enough to stumble across a person who had population figures by province a while ago, might interest you:

code:

				1,630		1,644
Zhejiang			23,600,000	19,900,000
Nanzhili			30,920,000	27,120,000
Jiangxi				19,300,000	19,300,000
Henan				16,730,000	8,460,000
Fujian				8,800,000	8,800,000
Shandong			11,820,000	13,080,000
Shanxi				9,500,000	5,700,000
Huguang North (i.e. Hubei)	8,000,000	6,200,000
Guangdong			7,800,000	7,800,000
Huguang South (i.e. Hunan)	7,000,000	7,000,000
Liaodong and further North	3,500,000	1,000,000
Beizhili			10,950,000	7,300,000
Shaanxi				10,000,000	7,400,000
Guangxi				3,500,000	3,500,000
Guizhou				2,500,000	2,500,000
Sichuan				7,350,000	500,000 (?)
Yunnan				2,400,000	2,400,000
Taiwan				100,000		100,000
NW Gansu			740,000		500,000
Northwest: Other		2,390,000	2,390,000
Tibet				800,000		800,000
Mongolia			500,000		500,000
			[Total	188,200,000	151,250,000]

I don't know how accurate they are, but they are apparently sourced from the 中國人口史 (Zhongguo Renkou shi; "History of the Population of China"), which is a thing that I have managed to determine at least exists, but only in Chinese. In any case, the numbers are based on the official period censuses, and for the 1393 entry at least are broken down further into prefectures and counties (!!!). Book's got to be just volume on volume of pages of numbers.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Yeah, I've basically decided that trying to be 100% accurate is a fool's errand, since the sources might not be accurate, and the system is supposed to diverge dynamically anyway. Plus it's a game, just having the whole thing not insanely skewed is really all that matters.

Yeah, that's my philosophy too.

I don't know, it seems we're both working on population growth mods, maybe we should pool our resources? Stop duplicating effort? I have a revised world map that's basically done, if you want it? :v:

gradenko_2000 posted:

I'm currently reading Paris 1919: Six Months That Changed the World and it's kind of amusing how there were people like Jan Smuts that wanted to hammer out peace deals on the basis of making pretty borders. Trading parts of Tanganyika, Mozambique, etc just so South Africa "would be a nice, compact shape"

What sort of monster would prioritise anything else? :colbert:

KOGAHAZAN!! fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Feb 18, 2014

# ? Feb 18, 2014 21:49

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Autonomous Monster posted:

Maddison, right? I was lucky enough to stumble across a person who had population figures by province a while ago, might interest you:
code:
				1,630		1,644
Zhejiang			23,600,000	19,900,000
Nanzhili			30,920,000	27,120,000
Jiangxi				19,300,000	19,300,000
Henan				16,730,000	8,460,000
Fujian				8,800,000	8,800,000
Shandong			11,820,000	13,080,000
Shanxi				9,500,000	5,700,000
Huguang North (i.e. Hubei)	8,000,000	6,200,000
Guangdong			7,800,000	7,800,000
Huguang South (i.e. Hunan)	7,000,000	7,000,000
Liaodong and further North	3,500,000	1,000,000
Beizhili			10,950,000	7,300,000
Shaanxi				10,000,000	7,400,000
Guangxi				3,500,000	3,500,000
Guizhou				2,500,000	2,500,000
Sichuan				7,350,000	500,000 (?)
Yunnan				2,400,000	2,400,000
Taiwan				100,000		100,000
NW Gansu			740,000		500,000
Northwest: Other		2,390,000	2,390,000
Tibet				800,000		800,000
Mongolia			500,000		500,000
			[Total	188,200,000	151,250,000]
I don't know how accurate they are, but they are apparently sourced from the 中國人口史 (Zhongguo Renkou shi; "History of the Population of China"), which is a thing that I have managed to determine at least exists, but only in Chinese. In any case, the numbers are based on the official period censuses, and for the 1393 entry at least are broken down further into prefectures and counties (!!!). Book's got to be just volume on volume of pages of numbers.

Cool. China in particular was a problem for me since the country is so loving big, and the population distribution has changed a whole lot over the period, much more I think than it has within the most European countries. Might actually be more than Europe as a whole really, since you didn't have a bunch of Frenchmen help fill out Russia.

Autonomous Monster posted:

I don't know, it seems we're both working on population growth mods, maybe we should pool our resources? Stop duplicating effort? I have a revised world map that's basically done, if you want it?

You have to promise you're not actually Ubik, but yeah, I'm down for sharing what I've done so far. Do you have PM's?

# ? Feb 18, 2014 22:07

KOGAHAZAN!!: Apr 29, 2013; a miserable failure as a person

an incredible success as a magical murder spider

A Buttery Pastry posted:

You have to promise you're not actually Ubik, but yeah, I'm down for sharing what I've done so far.

I solemnly swear I am not Ubik. For one thing, I'm Scottish, so I have an entirely different nationalist bias :v:

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Do you have PM's?

Yes, yes I do.

# ? Feb 18, 2014 22:11

Dibujante: Jul 27, 2004

Autonomous Monster posted:

I don't know how accurate they are, but they are apparently sourced from the 中國人口史 (Zhongguo Renkou shi; "History of the Population of China"), which is a thing that I have managed to determine at least exists, but only in Chinese. In any case, the numbers are based on the official period censuses, and for the 1393 entry at least are broken down further into prefectures and counties (!!!). Book's got to be just volume on volume of pages of numbers.

Goddamn, I want to see that information get digitized

# ? Feb 18, 2014 22:29

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Autonomous Monster posted:

I solemnly swear I am not Ubik. For one thing, I'm Scottish, so I have an entirely different nationalist bias

Okay, Scottish and Danish nationalist bias shouldn't conflict too much I think. :scotland:

Autonomous Monster posted:

Yes, yes I do.

Great. Just fire a PM off to me whenever you have time.

Dibujante posted:

Goddamn, I want to see that information get digitized

You could make the most insanely accurate administration focused game based on that. Middle Kingdom: Ming Magistrate

# ? Feb 18, 2014 22:54

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

A new East vs. West dev diary got posted a few days ago. You're not gonna believe what it's focusing on :psyduck:

# ? Feb 19, 2014 00:26

Zohar: Jul 14, 2013; Good kitty

Kavak posted:

A new East vs. West dev diary got posted a few days ago. You're not gonna believe what it's focusing on

Did they get an ultimatum to post a dev diary or something?

# ? Feb 19, 2014 00:33

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Kavak posted:

A new East vs. West dev diary got posted a few days ago. You're not gonna believe what it's focusing on

Welp, final image is focused on an invasion of Denmark, guess I have to buy the game now.

# ? Feb 19, 2014 00:43

GrossMurpel: Apr 8, 2011

Kavak posted:

A new East vs. West dev diary got posted a few days ago. You're not gonna believe what it's focusing on

I took a wild guess and said "Diplomacy" because that would be hilarious at this point. I was not prepared for this. :allears:

# ? Feb 19, 2014 00:53

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# ? May 29, 2024 23:42

Kavak: Aug 23, 2009

GrossMurpel posted:

I took a wild guess and said "Diplomacy" because that would be hilarious at this point. I was not prepared for this.

Uh, speaking of that, turns out I missed a diary.

# ? Feb 19, 2014 00:58

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Paradox Grand Strategy: From the Carnival of Lust to the Enlightened Times

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