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Serious Frolicking posted:Where did you find such detailed subclass specifications, anyway? The light novels describe things in more detail(Mamare sort of likes to go rambling off on a subject every so often), and there's a wiki out there that collates some of the information.
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Feb 16, 2014 15:21
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veekie posted:The light novels describe things in more detail(Mamare sort of likes to go rambling off on a subject every so often), and there's a wiki out there that collates some of the information. Yeah, I took a look at some of the translated versions floating around out there... is this normal for light novels?? Because it's terrible, stylistically. I've also read a few of the Spice & Wolf novels, but they were never quite as bad -- even though the author of those also sometimes has problems with the whole "show not tell" rule.
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Feb 16, 2014 15:24
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DrSunshine posted:Yeah, I took a look at some of the translated versions floating around out there... is this normal for light novels?? Because it's terrible, stylistically. I've also read a few of the Spice & Wolf novels, but they were never quite as bad -- even though the author of those also sometimes has problems with the whole "show not tell" rule. Light novels tend to be like that since they're relatively easy to get published, and I think it's a lot less awkward in the original Japanese. Chalk it up to language expression differences.
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Feb 16, 2014 15:32
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DrSunshine posted:Yeah, I took a look at some of the translated versions floating around out there... is this normal for light novels?? Because it's terrible, stylistically. I've also read a few of the Spice & Wolf novels, but they were never quite as bad -- even though the author of those also sometimes has problems with the whole "show not tell" rule. Isn't it the same author? Didn't he also do Mayuu-whatever (not the one with the parttimer, the one with the Demon Queen who introduces potatoes)? Or is "A brief treatise on the economics of ye olde fantasyworld" somehow its own genre in Japan?
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Feb 16, 2014 15:44
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Bremen posted:Ok, I now definitely think that Sage guy is orchestrating things. That look he gave when the contract was signed was just not right. I really wouldn't call it not right, I got the sense that the expression was more of like "Holy poo poo, they actually went and did it." I won't argue that he didn't nudge Shiroe into that direction by giving him the information he needed to understand the differences between an adventurer's death and a PoTL's death.
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Feb 16, 2014 15:55
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ArchangeI posted:Isn't it the same author? Didn't he also do Mayuu-whatever (not the one with the parttimer, the one with the Demon Queen who introduces potatoes)? Or is "A brief treatise on the economics of ye olde fantasyworld" somehow its own genre in Japan? Nah, the author of Spice & Wolf is Isuna Hasekura, while the author of Maoyu and Log Horizon is Mamare Touno.
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Feb 16, 2014 16:09
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chami posted:I really wouldn't call it not right, I got the sense that the expression was more of like "Holy poo poo, they actually went and did it." I won't argue that he didn't nudge Shiroe into that direction by giving him the information he needed to understand the differences between an adventurer's death and a PoTL's death. A guy whose life's study was world-scale magic had a chance to introduce himself to an archmage who could potentially create one. That's all. He probably knew as soon as he saw the light show that Shiroe was responsible, and he is the one most likely to figure out what Shiroe did. He had nothing to do with creating the crisis or the outcome, though.
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Feb 16, 2014 17:00
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Serious Frolicking posted:A guy whose life's study was world-scale magic had a chance to introduce himself to an archmage who could potentially create one. That's all. He probably knew as soon as he saw the light show that Shiroe was responsible, and he is the one most likely to figure out what Shiroe did. He had nothing to do with creating the crisis or the outcome, though. Incidentally the lights show just reminded me of Exalted.
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Feb 16, 2014 17:23
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veekie posted:Incidentally the lights show just reminded me of Exalted. I was thinking Summer of Love in E7.
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Feb 16, 2014 19:06
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Emalde posted:So this episode of course has a huge number of implications, but instead of spinning on something I feel like wont ever be re-visited in the anime specifically, I'd like to instead note how "Adventurer" is just a full-on subclass instead of some kind of base status in this instance. Does that mean there are additional unlockable benefits to the State Of Existing As An Adventurer that nobody else has yet? Or is it really just something that occured for circumstance? 
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Feb 16, 2014 19:47
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grrarg posted:Furthermore, exactly what does it say when he pulls up his subclass? The wiki lists the subclass abilities as stuff like the ability to respawn, use Call of Home, etc. Revive at the Cathedral Friend list EXP Bonus Bank Storage Detailed status
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Feb 16, 2014 20:06
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grrarg posted:Furthermore, exactly what does it say when he pulls up his subclass? The wiki lists the subclass abilities as stuff like the ability to respawn, use Call of Home, etc.  e:f,b
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Feb 16, 2014 20:07
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DrSunshine posted:Yeah, I took a look at some of the translated versions floating around out there... is this normal for light novels?? Because it's terrible, stylistically. I've also read a few of the Spice & Wolf novels, but they were never quite as bad -- even though the author of those also sometimes has problems with the whole "show not tell" rule. There is actually a lot of side material and appendices for log horizon, more detailed stuff isn't so... Flow-breaking? But it does definitely get kinda rambling. I think a lot of the problem is in the translation more than anything. Adelheid fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Feb 16, 2014 20:30
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Furious Lobster posted:
I honestly assumed Adventurer was the default subclass for all PCs which essentially unlocks all of those things by default. Apparently not.
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Feb 18, 2014 05:26
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Shiroe just rewrote the laws of the universe. It could be that Adventurer as a (sub)class didn't exist prior to this contract, the players just were.
Namnesor fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 05:31
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Alternatively, just because no one had taken the sub-class before does not mean it did not exist. Perhaps it always existed within the world of Elder Tale (but not the game) they are now in and Shiroe was simply the first person to figure out how to take advantage of it.
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Feb 18, 2014 05:42
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Remember that subclasses (and main classes) vary between servers, so there are a shitload of them. Adding a new subclass doesn't seem all that impressive. If new magic is possible, why not new subclasses? Adventurers aren't locked into their choice like they are for main classes, after all. It would be weird as hell if Rudy was now able to serve as the adventurer subclass trainer, though. Potl can't take subclasses so it wouldn't be something world-changing, but it would sure be strange and useless.
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Feb 18, 2014 05:56
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Coughing Hobo posted:Shiroe just rewrote the laws of the universe. It could be that Adventurer as a (sub)class didn't exist prior to this contract, the players just were. This. Sort of. Remember exposition man talking about how there have been only a few instances of world-class spells that redefined the world? I think what Shiroe did was discover one of the many ways in which the structure of the world has changed, such as the ability to cook proper food and use crafting to engineer new technology. So I don't think he actually rewrote the laws himself, although it's possible that's what happened.
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Feb 18, 2014 06:00
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HiKaizer posted:Alternatively, just because no one had taken the sub-class before does not mean it did not exist. Perhaps it always existed within the world of Elder Tale (but not the game) they are now in and Shiroe was simply the first person to figure out how to take advantage of it. If it was like that then Rudy would have probably picked it, right? I agree with folks that we pretty much saw a new use of World-Class magic and the creation of the Adventurer Subclass for PoTL.
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Feb 18, 2014 06:06
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Det_no posted:If it was like that then Rudy would have probably picked it, right? You need a specific Lander NPC with the class to give you a quest if you want to get certain special sub-classes. It's safe to say that there's not some Adventurer Lander just standing around in a town somewhere, largely because that was like saying "burning snow" until Shiroe came along. Plus, that may not even still happen; remember the earlier question with whether or not players can still get new Magic Bags (of Holding)? And since Rudy's never belonged to the world-that-was-a-game, he may not have ever had access to sub-classes at all, which would explain him not having one.
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Feb 18, 2014 06:34
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ViggyNash posted:This. Sort of. Remember exposition man talking about how there have been only a few instances of world-class spells that redefined the world? I think what Shiroe did was discover one of the many ways in which the structure of the world has changed, such as the ability to cook proper food and use crafting to engineer new technology. So I don't think he actually rewrote the laws himself, although it's possible that's what happened. I believe the usual term for this sort of thing is a "hotfix". 
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Feb 18, 2014 06:34
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Tarezax posted:I believe the usual term for this sort of thing is a "hotfix". This is too good.
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Feb 18, 2014 06:54
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Einander posted:You need a specific Lander NPC with the class to give you a quest if you want to get certain special sub-classes. It's safe to say that there's not some Adventurer Lander just standing around in a town somewhere, largely because that was like saying "burning snow" until Shiroe came along. So...now that we DO have an Adventurer subclass Lander....Rudy can sponsor Landers to become Adventurers if it works like the other subclasses, except for the requirement to keep it a secret.
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Feb 18, 2014 07:39
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Great Adventurer or Greatest Adventurer?
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Feb 18, 2014 14:08
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veekie posted:So...now that we DO have an Adventurer subclass Lander....Rudy can sponsor Landers to become Adventurers if it works like the other subclasses, except for the requirement to keep it a secret. I already brought that up. Potl can't take subclasses. He might be able to train adventurers in the adventurer subclass, but that's it.
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Feb 18, 2014 16:12
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Clearly, the solution is for a level-90 Adventurer, subclass Scribe, to create a contract with a POTL that confers to them the subclass "Adventurer-Trainer".
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Feb 18, 2014 16:21
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To me the latest episode raises an ethical problem. Now that at least Shiroe has the ability to make PotL's into adventurers, isn't there a moral obligation to do so? You're basically offering immortality. It would screw up the current power balance between adventurers and Landers, and also the internal power balance amongst Landers depending on who you bestow immortality upon, but if you don't turn Landers into adventurers, they all remain susceptible to perma-death. If you do turn them into adventurers, they would however no longer have reasons to hand out quest-like requests (which the goblin extermination basically ended up being), because they could solve these matters themselves without the risk of perma-death, so you'd lose a very powerful bartering tool and your immortality advantage all in one swoop. I wonder where the show will go with this. I suspect they'll just skirt around the topic and never raise the problem, or make Rundel a special non-repeatable case. Either that or turn all Landers into adventurers to solve the inequality problem alluded to in a previous episode. But if the materials are as rare as the last episode made them look like, that shouldn't be easy.
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Feb 18, 2014 16:25
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As stated by Shiroe in the last episode, making that contract without it failing required the highest available level paper and ink to make. Given what they know about the death system in the game at the moment, I'd say it's pretty unrealistic to suddenly expect one of the probably very few Lv90 Scribes in the server to mass produce those contracts. It's a rather easy problem to skirt around because not many guilds have actually expressed any interest in using the PotL for any means. But yeah, I can see how Rudy might speak about it to other 'Landers as if it was a miracle while forgetting it was supposed to be a secret.
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Feb 18, 2014 16:33
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When did Shiroe become responsible for every living person? Minor novel spoiler: There are potl who are hostile to akiba and eastal. Shiroe isn't some benevolent deity. Why on earth should he be obligated to make his enemies immortal? Larger novel spoiler: There is a potl serial killer in book 6. Shiroe could in theory make an insane, cursed and nigh unstoppable murderer immortal. It is a life. Shiroe could save it. By the understanding that he is obligated to dedicate his life to make people immortal if he has the ability to do so, he definitely should even if it would cause nothing but misery for everyone including the serial killer. In short, any such self-imposed obligation would be stupid as hell.
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Feb 18, 2014 16:45
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Mchangin posted:As stated by Shiroe in the last episode, making that contract without it failing required the highest available level paper and ink to make. Given what they know about the death system in the game at the moment, I'd say it's pretty unrealistic to suddenly expect one of the probably very few Lv90 Scribes in the server to mass produce those contracts. Unless I'm misremembering things I think it's possible that Shiroe went with the very best ingredients without them being strictly necessary. When a life is at stake and you're not sure if something is even possible it makes sense to go with the absolute optimal materials, but we haven't seen Shiroe testing it with intermediate-level ingredients to confirm the exact requirements. Still it's highly likely that it has extremely strict requirements, just based on how much of a game-changer it is... but I was just talking technicalities. Anyway I agree that Shiroe doesn't have an ethical responsibility to put it to use. There's a definite moral argument for helping people when you can, but that doesn't extend to dishing out immortality and/or superpowers. Regardless of any selfish motivations that's the sort of thing that could easily gently caress things up more than it helps and even if it had bizarrely low requirements he still wouldn't have the resources to implement the idea fairly.
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Feb 18, 2014 19:22
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It really does seem like a kind of Star Trek-like "Prime Directive" situation. It is moral to help those in need and prevent suffering, but is it ethical for those who possess a technological advantage to interfere with the natural development of a less technologically advanced society?
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Feb 18, 2014 19:25
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DrSunshine posted:It really does seem like a kind of Star Trek-like "Prime Directive" situation. It is moral to help those in need and prevent suffering, but is it ethical for those who possess a technological advantage to interfere with the natural development of a less technologically advanced society? Well, not to be flip but with the development of the steam engine, I'm sure that the ethical v. moral technological development ship's already left the port.  .
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Feb 18, 2014 19:59
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Besides which even if he could offer immortality to the whole world's worth of POTL, it would still be highly irresponsible, because immortality is kinda a double edged blade even at the best of times.
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Feb 18, 2014 23:38
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Serious Frolicking posted:I already brought that up. Potl can't take subclasses. He might be able to train adventurers in the adventurer subclass, but that's it. If PotL couldn't take subclasses, Rudy would be dead. All Shiroe did was make a new subclass that conferred Adventurer powers, and have Rudy take that new subclass as his. The reason why Rudy can't sponsor anyone he is that he would need to be a Scribe to make a contract like that, and his subclass is already Adventurer. He could drop one and take the other, but that's it. Most PotL don't have subclasses, it's true. In general their subclass tends to be their main class, like Elissa (Maid) and Raynesia (Princess). I'm guessing this is because Adventurers learn their subclass by magic osmosis (via purchasable instruction manuals), and Landers presumably have to learn their skills the hard way.
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Feb 19, 2014 02:36
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If Rudy were to swap out his Adventurer subclass for something else, do you suppose he'd die? Like, is he being maintained by the contract's existence, like some kind of lich with a paper phylactery, or was the revive just because he had "Adventurer" status at the moment?
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Feb 19, 2014 02:41
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DrSunshine posted:If Rudy were to swap out his Adventurer subclass for something else, do you suppose he'd die? Like, is he being maintained by the contract's existence, like some kind of lich with a paper phylactery, or was the revive just because he had "Adventurer" status at the moment? I think it's the latter. The Adventurer subclass specifically mentions reviving at the Cathedral under its list of features. So you'd lose that, the EXP boost (Adventurers level 4 times faster than Landers), Guild access, Bank access, Telepathy, and the additional menu options, but you wouldn't drop dead.
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Feb 19, 2014 02:46
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Vengarr posted:
Level 50+ landers must be complete badasses then, to acquire that much experience and not die once in the process. Hope they run across a few in this series!
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Feb 19, 2014 03:10
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chami posted:Level 50+ landers must be complete badasses then, to acquire that much experience and not die once in the process. Hope they run across a few in this series! I just realized that Rudy essentially soloed his way to his current level. As a squishy sorcerer in Hardcore mode too.
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Feb 19, 2014 03:46
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chami posted:Level 50+ landers must be complete badasses then, to acquire that much experience and not die once in the process. Hope they run across a few in this series! That's why the Knights of Izumo are such a big deal.
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Feb 19, 2014 03:49
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Vengarr posted:If PotL couldn't take subclasses, Rudy would be dead. All Shiroe did was make a new subclass that conferred Adventurer powers, and have Rudy take that new subclass as his. The contract was a high level crafted item which magically bound the signatories. Rudy wasn't an adventurer, but the contract was powerful enough that since it required him to be one, it rewrote the laws of existence. Rudy was able to learn a subclass due to his subclass. It isn't normally possible. Regular subclass trainers are potl who can train adventurers in their class. Originally, it was just certain npc's but for all I know any potl with a high enough level of a non-adventurer class can serve as a subclass trainer now. Shiroe obviously can't normally serve as a trainer regardless of how high his level is. Whether Rudy still counts as a potl in any sense is unclear.
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Feb 19, 2014 04:14
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