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chami posted:Level 50+ landers must be complete badasses then, to acquire that much experience and not die once in the process. Hope they run across a few in this series! Keep in mind that Adventurers leveled up when it was a game, meaning they spent at most a few years playing it as a hobby. Whereas someone who lived in that world would more plausibly devote their entire lives to it as a profession. So they've spent decades doing it. Even if they play it safe and stick to safer monsters, they've had a lot more time to earn experience.
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Feb 19, 2014 04:27
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Clarste posted:Keep in mind that Adventurers leveled up when it was a game, meaning they spent at most a few years playing it as a hobby. Whereas someone who lived in that world would more plausibly devote their entire lives to it as a profession. So they've spent decades doing it. Even if they play it safe and stick to safer monsters, they've had a lot more time to earn experience. The problem with that idea is the time difference. Remember in an earlier episode how they mentioned that time worked differently when Elder Tale was just a game? To the extent that, to the perspective of the Landers, Shiro's been adventuring for longer than a single human lifetime. I have a feeling that anybody who is at a high level is incredibly old by the standards of the world they're in now, especially when you consider the fact that Landers level 4 times slower than Adventurers and you have to fight enemies within a certain level range of you to even get experience, so you can't just go bash a dozen weak gobs over the head a hundred times a day.
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Feb 19, 2014 05:08
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Clarste posted:Keep in mind that Adventurers leveled up when it was a game, meaning they spent at most a few years playing it as a hobby. Whereas someone who lived in that world would more plausibly devote their entire lives to it as a profession. So they've spent decades doing it. Even if they play it safe and stick to safer monsters, they've had a lot more time to earn experience. There's a fairly big time rate difference though. I think it was a 1:3 time difference or more. Shiroe is more than a century old in game.
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Feb 19, 2014 06:11
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veekie posted:There's a fairly big time rate difference though. I think it was a 1:3 time difference or more. Shiroe is more than a century old in game. That doesn't actually change how much time he spent playing. If anything, it gives the Landers even more of an advantage.
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Feb 19, 2014 06:49
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Clarste posted:That doesn't actually change how much time he spent playing. If anything, it gives the Landers even more of an advantage. Not really, because it means the Landers are growing old even as he remains in his prime. To them he'd be going out for weeks at a time when all he did was spend a few hours logged on. And while a gamer rather than the character, he doesn't need to take breaks or manage social/biological needs. Like a machine that goes out to gently caress up monsters.
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Feb 19, 2014 07:07
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veekie posted:Not really, because it means the Landers are growing old even as he remains in his prime. To them he'd be going out for weeks at a time when all he did was spend a few hours logged on. And while a gamer rather than the character, he doesn't need to take breaks or manage social/biological needs. Like a machine that goes out to gently caress up monsters. So Crusty is a literal mindreading murder machine.
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Feb 19, 2014 08:24
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I thought subclasses were unlimited? Rudy's main class is sorceror.
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Feb 19, 2014 09:54
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ArchangeI posted:I thought subclasses were unlimited? Rudy's main class is sorceror. That'd be correct. People of the Land don't always have both class and subclass. Non-combat PotL just have their subclass as main, combat PotL have a main class like any Adventurer but may or may not have a subclass(Rudy's subclass before the contract was Noble), special event PotL(I don't think any of those were prominent on the Japan server) have a main class and usually a unique subclass to boot.
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Feb 19, 2014 15:21
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Kwyndig posted:The problem with that idea is the time difference. Remember in an earlier episode how they mentioned that time worked differently when Elder Tale was just a game? To the extent that, to the perspective of the Landers, Shiro's been adventuring for longer than a single human lifetime. I have a feeling that anybody who is at a high level is incredibly old by the standards of the world they're in now, especially when you consider the fact that Landers level 4 times slower than Adventurers and you have to fight enemies within a certain level range of you to even get experience, so you can't just go bash a dozen weak gobs over the head a hundred times a day. Y'know, given how the rules have changed, it might not be outlandish to assume that someone can gain levels without going out and killing stuff, at least for early levels. One thing I noticed that if Rudy was a PoTL, he seemed awfully unfazed by his party throwing around MMO lingo. Maybe PoTL got used to it from overhearing adventurers talk. Does he now have access to all that stuff like friend lists and status panels?
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Feb 19, 2014 18:24
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veekie posted:There's a fairly big time rate difference though. I think it was a 1:3 time difference or more. Shiroe is more than a century old in game. Every 2 hours real world time was a day in game.
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Feb 19, 2014 18:27
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Slime posted:Y'know, given how the rules have changed, it might not be outlandish to assume that someone can gain levels without going out and killing stuff, at least for early levels. He was faking it mostly. He's acting like a delusional roleplayer, when he honestly has no idea what it's like and is trying to make it look real. Consider his favorite food for example. And his grandiose proclamations of what Adventurers are motivated by(which nets him weird looks because every Adventurer knows they were originally just gamers)
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Feb 19, 2014 19:34
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Is there any chance that Rudy is a knight of Izumo, just drastically deleveled because of the Apocalypse. Might explain how he got to level 20 on his own and where the rest of the knights had gone. Like the Apocolypse was a giant server restart
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Feb 19, 2014 21:44
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Clarste posted:That doesn't actually change how much time he spent playing. If anything, it gives the Landers even more of an advantage. When it was a game it had a 1hr:12hrs time conversion. If a player spends 1 real hr killing a boss monster that's 1 hr of their life taken up. If a PotL spends 1 real hr killing a boss monster that's 12 hrs of their life taken up. Couple with the 4x EXP boost for adventurers and a PotL has to spend 48 game hrs of fighting for every one hour a player does. So a PotL levels up 48 times slower whilst playing with permadeath and with many other disadvantages (no fast travel, no quests, no guilds etc). Yes they experience time 12 times faster, but they have to sacrifice much more time out of their lives to achieve the same results so they're much more susceptible to getting burnt out or losing their enthusiasm. If an adventurer and a PotL are both doing heavy training alongside a normal life then the adventurer comes out on top because modern conveniences mean he spends less time per day on necessities so he has more time to train. If an adventurer and a PotL are casually training then the adventurer comes out on top because 1 x 2 hrs = 24 game hrs is probably more efficient than 12 x 2 game hrs when you factor in travel time / grouping up etc. The only exception is if the PotL is basically Guts and their entire life & livelihood revolves around killing things, because most players will have work/school/college preventing them from making the same time commitment. Basically the PotL can make a living by fighting but most players can't. Not gonna lie though, I think a Guts NPC would be kinda badass. Vengarr posted:I think it's the latter. The Adventurer subclass specifically mentions reviving at the Cathedral under its list of features. If it got turned into a normal subclass then I'm picturing some hilarious death-bed re-specs.
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Feb 19, 2014 22:19
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The fact that Regan considered Shiroe to be a hundred years old suggests the exact opposite, though. An entire generation of PotL were born, lived a full life, and died in the eight years since Shiroe started playing. So in your example, it would have taken a PotL an hour in their own subjective timeframe and only five minutes in 'real' time to kill that boss, making their exp gain actually three times 'faster' than an adventurers. Of course, the problem here is that the two timeframes are difficult to reconcile. You'd think someone would have mentioned it by now if adventurers literally used to move 12 times slower than landers, so who knows what things actually looked like from their perspective.
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Feb 19, 2014 23:04
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Ulta posted:Is there any chance that Rudy is a knight of Izumo, just drastically deleveled because of the Apocalypse. Might explain how he got to level 20 on his own and where the rest of the knights had gone. Like the Apocolypse was a giant server restart Unlikely. In the Overseas side story chapter translated so far, we meet one, or a facsimile thereof. In fact, he's the guy off the box art for the game, and he's been bumped -up- in level from earlier appearances.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:39
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Mygna posted:The fact that Regan considered Shiroe to be a hundred years old suggests the exact opposite, though. An entire generation of PotL were born, lived a full life, and died in the eight years since Shiroe started playing. So in your example, it would have taken a PotL an hour in their own subjective timeframe and only five minutes in 'real' time to kill that boss, making their exp gain actually three times 'faster' than an adventurers. It's not like Adventurers are on around the clock, they'd be disappearing for days or weeks at a time from an ingame perspective when they log out to sleep, work, or whatever. There's also the fact that POTL were more typical NPCs before the update/apocalypse, so there wouldn't have been much reason for any players to actually interact with the POTL at large on a regular basis outside of dropping by to pick up and turn in quests. The players pretty much seem to run things like shops and vendoring anyway, as opposed to having NPC-based mechanics there; POTL before the patch seem like they were purely quest dispensers outside of places like Akihabara.
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Feb 20, 2014 01:52
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Mygna posted:The fact that Regan considered Shiroe to be a hundred years old suggests the exact opposite, though. An entire generation of PotL were born, lived a full life, and died in the eight years since Shiroe started playing. So in your example, it would have taken a PotL an hour in their own subjective timeframe and only five minutes in 'real' time to kill that boss, making their exp gain actually three times 'faster' than an adventurers. Before the apocalypse, if there was a boss that took 1 real world hour to kill, that means from a PotL perspective, they had to spend half a day fighting to kill it. "60 minutes" has a totally different meaning to us than it did to them. It's just a brief time for us, but for them it's almost their entire wake period. It's better to think of things in relative terms like that. You can't reconcile some things, but I don't think you have to; it seems like the past of the current post-apocalypse world is more loosely inspired by the world of the game, rather than a direct copy. The Landers don't remember things exactly as they were, but re-interpreted in a way that would make some sort of logical sense as a history of a real world.
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Feb 20, 2014 02:26
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Lets assume a player plays 4 hours a day. That's a 2 days of active adventuring, in game time, in one stretch. But then the player disappears for 10 days (or 20 hours "real" time), accomplishing nothing during that span. A POTL that trains for e: Wow, I calculated this totally wrong. Landers really don't have a chance at matching adventurers, but if they were really dedicated they could get close. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 02:43
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Well, there is still the fact that adventurers get an exp bonus. It says so right there on Rudy's list of subclass features.
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Feb 20, 2014 03:32
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ViggyNash posted:Lets assume a player plays 4 hours a day. That's a 2 days of active adventuring, in game time, in one stretch. But then the player disappears for 10 days (or 20 hours "real" time), accomplishing nothing during that span. A POTL that trains for 3 hours a day, every day, for those 12 days will have trained the equivalent of a player playing 4 hours a day. Again: Landers gain EXP at 1/4th the speed of Adventurers. This has been stated directly in the novels and obliquely referenced in the show. For every monster an Adventurer kills, a Lander has to kill four. So in order to match the 48 in-game hours that Adventurer spent leveling, a Lander would need to spend 192 hours. That's assuming everything else is equal between the two, which is not the case. An Adventurer can solo and take on high-level monsters without fear. A Lander has to face death with every battle, and so would realistically need a party and/or grind on weaker monsters in order to have a good chance of surviving. As if that wasn't enough, Adventurers also don't feel as much pain from injuries as Landers. Finally, Landers have reduced access to the status screens. They appear to get a vague sense of stats instead of exact numbers, from what Rudy describes in his brief POV after he revives as an Adventurer. Imagine playing Dark Souls for your first time and not dying once. As a mage. With no UI. Feeling the pain of every slash, smash, and stab. Now you understand why Rudy is held in such high regard by most readers. Being a Lander who can hang with Adventurers requires unreal courage. In the novel, during the first dungeon run he takes an arrow to the loving skull and doesn't even pretend to give a poo poo. Vengarr fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 03:34
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Nah, Landers do have UIs, but it's not as detailed as Adventurer UIs.
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Feb 20, 2014 03:38
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Vengarr posted:In the novel, during the first dungeon run he takes an arrow to the loving skull and doesn't even pretend to give a poo poo. My disappointment that this was not animated cannot be accurately described using mere words.
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Feb 20, 2014 03:43
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Vengarr posted:Again: Landers gain EXP at 1/4th the speed of Adventurers. This has been stated directly in the novels and obliquely referenced in the show. For every monster an Adventurer kills, a Lander has to kill four. Yea, I calculated wrong. Rudy really worth all his talk.
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Feb 20, 2014 03:47
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He really is, and his reckless play style also explains how he got to his extremely high level for a Lander, as a solo sorceror(ranged DPS) who cannot afford to die once, he has to play extremely aggressively, kill monsters quickly, and run away quickly if they don't die from the bombardment. He just looks like a doof because he's pretending to be what he's not.
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Feb 20, 2014 10:28
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The other thing that makes Rudy's achievement even more impressive, is that it seems unlikely that he'd get the low level PC EXP potion, which also boosted combat stats. You know the one Hamelin was farming off of the kids? It seems improbable that People of the Land would get them.
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Feb 20, 2014 12:15
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HiKaizer posted:The other thing that makes Rudy's achievement even more impressive, is that it seems unlikely that he'd get the low level PC EXP potion, which also boosted combat stats. You know the one Hamelin was farming off of the kids? It seems improbable that People of the Land would get them. He couldn't afford it. Remember the food talk? The item he talked about was one of the cheapest NewFood available, and he had crap for gear.
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Feb 20, 2014 13:15
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We don't know what the exp multiplier or duration on those was. They haven't been mentioned once during an arc about people who would normally receive them grinding levels.
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Feb 20, 2014 14:48
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Vengarr posted:Again: Landers gain EXP at 1/4th the speed of Adventurers. This has been stated directly in the novels and obliquely referenced in the show. For every monster an Adventurer kills, a Lander has to kill four. The problem is that exp gain depends on how many monsters you kill, not the time it takes you to do that. An adventurer may spend 48 consecutive in-game hours to grind from the perspective of a lander, but he is only going to kill four hours worth of monsters in that time. So the lander would have to spend only 16 in-game hours to match the adventurer, before you take reduced killing speed from the much higher risk and other factors into account. Mygna fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 15:01
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Mygna posted:The problem is that exp gain depends on how many monsters you kill, not the time it takes you to do that. An adventurer may spend 48 consecutive in-game hours to grind from the perspective of a lander, but he is only going to kill four hours worth of monsters in that time. So the lander would have to spend only 16 in-game hours to match the adventurer, before you take reduced killing speed from the much higher risk and other factors into account. Errr, no, the adventurer is going to kill 48 hours worth of monsters from the perspective of a lander. Lets say a adventurer spends four hours of real time killing monsters and kills 100 of them, to a lander the adventurer spends 48 hours of game time killing 100 monsters. Landers can only do stuff in game time, so to kill the same 100 monsters it would take them 48 hours game time if they kill just as quickly as the adventurer does. This does not even factor in the faster rate of experience gain for adventurers.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:27
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AVeryLargeRadish posted:Errr, no, the adventurer is going to kill 48 hours worth of monsters from the perspective of a lander. Lets say a adventurer spends four hours of real time killing monsters and kills 100 of them, to a lander the adventurer spends 48 hours of game time killing 100 monsters. Landers can only do stuff in game time, so to kill the same 100 monsters it would take them 48 hours game time if they kill just as quickly as the adventurer does. This does not even factor in the faster rate of experience gain for adventurers. Uh, no, a lander would take the same amount of subjective time to kill 100 monsters as an adventurer, so four hours of game-time. That's pretty much how it must work if they think Shiroe is a hundred years old and aren't freaking out about the days suddenly being 12 times longer. What you are describing is how things would look like to someone sitting in front of a monitor, playing the game, but that's clearly not how it worked from the perspective of the landers. This is what I meant when I said the timeframes are difficult to reconcile. For someone playing the game, the NPC's moved as fast as their own avatars, while the day-night-cycle was twelve times faster than that. This leads to the absurd stuff you often get in games, like an NPC taking 3 hours to cross the marketplace or someone fighting a single boss for 24 hours straight. But everything points to the landers - from their own perspective at least - always having been in sync with the faster timeframe of the game. In that light, saying that it would have taken them an hour to kill a single pack of wolves or whatever is completely absurd. Mygna fucked around with this message at 16:52 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 16:37
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Mygna posted:Uh, no, a lander would take the same amount of subjective time to kill 100 monsters as an adventurer, so four hours of game-time. That's pretty much how it must work if they think Shiroe is a hundred years old and aren't freaking out about the days suddenly being 12 times longer. If you bring an NPC into a 1hr boss fight then the fight lasts 1hr for the player but 12hrs for lander (half a day passes in game time). If you escort an NPC for 1 hr quest then it lasts 1 hr for the player but 12 hrs for the lander. The same event can't take place as 1hr for player and 1hr for the lander when the player sees it taking 12hrs for the lander. Yes it does lead to silly things like landers taking 3hrs to cross the marketplace or fighting for 12hrs, but obviously the rules of the game weren't designed around making things fair and logical for landers - it's supposed to be an abstraction. What you're arguing only makes sense if landers whizz around at lightspeed whenever they're off camera, but suddenly slow to 1/12th speed when they're observed by an adventurer. Or maybe you could argue that a lander can be observed taking half a day for a fight, but suddenly gets reimbursed for 11 out of 12 of those hours when nobody is watching. In any case the simplest and easiest explanation is that the game wasn't designed to make sense from a lander's perspective. Additionally it's pretty clear that the post-apocalypse world is merely inspired by the game rather than being a 1:1 recreation. In this case the most likely explanation is that days are suddenly 12 times longer, but nobody's freaking out about it because people weren't in the world pre-apocalypse (pre-apocalypse landers were mere programs, pre-apocalypse adventurers were just playing a game).
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Feb 20, 2014 20:11
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 We don't even need glasses anymore to use /adjustglasses emotes.Next episode looks like padding though, and a grim reminder that things are going to be over soon. Don't go, Log Horizon, you are the best thing I've seen in years 
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Feb 22, 2014 14:11
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Yeah, it looks like they'll be slow-burning the rest of the season. It's probably for the best, rather than cram a big story arc into what they've got left.
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Feb 22, 2014 15:40
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Smart move on the controlled leak about memory-loss, Shiroe. On the other hand, it looks like the situation with the immortality contracts may soon become much less controllable. In other news, holy poo poo Marie's air-glasses.
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Feb 22, 2014 15:47
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Emalde posted:
Yeah, if someone had told me after Sword Art Online that one of the best things next season was going to be another 'dudes in a game world' show, I wouldn't have believed it. Even with the slow pacing, this show just consistently delivers.
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Feb 22, 2014 17:14
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If the next arc isn't about them going to Minami City, then it's a safe bet they're already planning on a second season.
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Feb 22, 2014 18:11
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Hasn't this been successful enough to warrant a second season once there are enough novels to adapt? Of course, that assumes that they don't get a different studio to make any future seasons. That is absolutely always a bad thing.
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Feb 22, 2014 18:24
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I think /airglasses had me laughing harder than anything from any of the actual comedies I'm following this season, holy crap.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:41
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Another show for Saitou Chiwa! Hooray! I've lost count at this point.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:55
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I wonder how well they can cram book 5 into the remaining episodes. They've dropped some huge hooks so I can see them covering some of the big plot points by the end of this season if they otherwise can't fit in book 5. There's probably not enough material for a second season depending on the pace, they'd have to stretch things and probably add some filler to get a second season with what's currently out. Edit: Of course, they've done a great job stretching the material so far so it may be possible with minimum filler. Argas fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 21:11
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