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Tsk tsk Hel. You just got a front row seat for an examination of the conventions of narrative and what happens to those who don't understand them, and you're letting your servant keep Durkon around? I'll see you in say late 2016 for the 'Oh, Durkon finally amassed enough willpower to break free at a crucial time? Because he's a hero and a stubborn dwarf and you're an arrogant god who can't see the power in such things? Even after those likely happenings were literally dangled in front of your face? TOLD YOU SO.'
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Feb 19, 2014 13:01
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Durkon's only breaking free if Vampurkon slaughters a gypsy family and the last survivor curses him with a soul.
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Feb 19, 2014 13:02
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Carrasco posted:I don't think this is what's being implied by Durkula automatically being promoted to "High Priest"--there are probably other clerics of Hel, but as a high-level cleric who is now a vampire he's probably the most powerful. Well Durkon did say at some point that nobody worships her. I don't know if he meant it literally or not, but there you go.
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Feb 19, 2014 13:23
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Raenir Salazar posted:I still don't buy this w.r.t Malack, he clearly thought of himself as well, 'himself', an extension of his previous self, he thought of his once living brothers as his brothers not his host's. That's as clear as day with any cursory read as written interpretation of the text. Technically, Malack only said that Durkon couldn't save him, as his devampired-self would be very different from his current self.
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Feb 19, 2014 13:33
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Cornwind Evil posted:Tsk tsk Hel. You just got a front row seat for an examination of the conventions of narrative and what happens to those who don't understand them, and you're letting your servant keep Durkon around? In just about any other circumstance this would be a valid concern, but this is just how D&D vampires work. Durkon can have all the willpower in the universe, but it won't matter for gently caress all. He's not getting out until somebody stakes Durkula. vv also true Cthulhuchan fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Feb 19, 2014 14:02
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Also, I don't think Durkula has a choice about keeping Durkon around inside of himself.
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Feb 19, 2014 14:04
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It would be interesting if Hilga returned and saved Durkon somehow. Now that would be a twist.
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Feb 19, 2014 14:06
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Loki is Hel's father in Norse mythology. If anything she'd be more likely to side with the vampire.
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Feb 19, 2014 14:15
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My Lovely Horse posted:Loki is Hel's father in Norse mythology. If anything she'd be more likely to side with the vampire. Loki is also a notoriously capricious prankster who doesn't really get along with his kids until Ragnarok.
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Feb 19, 2014 14:19
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my dad posted:Loki is also a notoriously capricious prankster who doesn't really get along with his kids until Ragnarok. Awww, she just wants to bond with her daddy!
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Feb 19, 2014 14:21
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Slime posted:Awww, she just wants to bond with her daddy!  Anyway Ragnarok is exactly what's on the table here so
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Feb 19, 2014 14:23
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Cthulhuchan posted:In just about any other circumstance this would be a valid concern, but this is just how D&D vampires work. Durkon can have all the willpower in the universe, but it won't matter for gently caress all. He's not getting out until somebody stakes Durkula.
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Feb 19, 2014 14:35
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my dad posted:It would be interesting if Hilga returned and saved Durkon somehow. Now that would be a twist. Haha, I said the exact same thing!
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Feb 19, 2014 14:57
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Cat Mattress posted:Haha, I said the exact same thing! Why does this keep happening to me in this thread?
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Feb 19, 2014 15:01
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Worth pointing out for when the party runs back into the Sapphire Guard is that by 3.5 rules Paladins are not allowed to knowingly work with sentient undead under any circumstances without their powers shutting off. Undead are powered by negative energy, negative energy is Evil with a capital E, and Paladins are forbidden from using evil means to achieve good ends. Once Lien and O-Chul find out about Durkula, they have to try to murder him lest their magic powers go away.
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Feb 19, 2014 15:49
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Froghammer posted:Worth pointing out for when the party runs back into the Sapphire Guard is that by 3.5 rules Paladins are not allowed to knowingly work with sentient undead under any circumstances without their powers shutting off. Undead are powered by negative energy, negative energy is Evil with a capital E, and Paladins are forbidden from using evil means to achieve good ends. It's not that draconian. They do have a bunch of rules, but the ZAP UNPOWERED only applies to the "don't do evil actions" rule. quote:Code of Conduct For OotS examples, Belkar worked alongside Miko (crushing the ogres), Hinjo (defending Azure City) and Moustache Paladin (in the resistance) without any of them losing their powers for it. At least two of them were well aware of Belkar's nature, too.
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Feb 19, 2014 16:29
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Oh, God, I just realized. We have five weeks between now and the next comic update, that not even Rich being okay can save us from. This thread is gonna be unbearable.
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Feb 19, 2014 16:30
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V just corrected someone's grammar right to their face. Talk about signs you've slid toward the dark side...
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Feb 19, 2014 16:38
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Froghammer posted:Worth pointing out for when the party runs back into the Sapphire Guard is that by 3.5 rules Paladins are not allowed to knowingly work with sentient undead under any circumstances without their powers shutting off. Undead are powered by negative energy, negative energy is Evil with a capital E, and Paladins are forbidden from using evil means to achieve good ends. You only fall immediately for committing an evil act. Working with evil people isn't evil in itself, it's just a violation of the paladin code, which makes it chaotic. A paladin can commit the occasional chaotic act without falling so long as it's infrequent enough that their alignment doesn't drop to NG while doing it.
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Feb 19, 2014 16:59
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The Leper Colon V posted:Oh, God, I just realized. We have five weeks between now and the next comic update, that not even Rich being okay can save us from. With some luck there'll be some Kickstarter stuff update in the meantime.
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Feb 19, 2014 17:03
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Since this book is over, a new thread might be a good idea. Or maybe when the strip is back in march/april.
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Feb 19, 2014 17:56
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Colonel Cool posted:You only fall immediately for committing an evil act. Working with evil people isn't evil in itself, it's just a violation of the paladin code, which makes it chaotic. A paladin can commit the occasional chaotic act without falling so long as it's infrequent enough that their alignment doesn't drop to NG while doing it. Plus I imagine the gods would let associating with a chaotic individual slide if the paladin was helping him expose an unjust ruler, or something like that. When the law is corrupt, paladins aren't expected to obey. That's what Miko tried to do, but while Shojo might have been a sneaky, underhanded bastard he wasn't corrupt.
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Feb 19, 2014 18:12
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I'm a bit disappointed that Hel is just straight-up villainously evil. That's 2 for 2 on death gods being evil, and I'm not sure the Eastern Pantheon has a one (Rat?). And it looks like the main bit of development Durkon will have in the next book is having to deal with his best friend and everyone he trusted letting this happen to him. I can only imagine how Roy would try to justify it to the paladins.
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Feb 19, 2014 18:28
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My Lovely Horse posted:Loki is Hel's father in Norse mythology. If anything she'd be more likely to side with the vampire. Loki, the guy who lets his kid be used a steed by his brother? Then again based on how he got that one he might hate it more. Fantastic Alice fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Feb 19, 2014 18:29
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Kajeesus posted:I'm a bit disappointed that Hel is just straight-up villainously evil. That's 2 for 2 on death gods being evil, and I'm not sure the Eastern Pantheon has a one (Rat?). Why? Hel is pretty evil in Norse mythology.
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Feb 19, 2014 19:14
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Not only that, but Hel specifically asks after Durkon's spirit prompting the conversation. Now the conversation is open ended enough that it may have been purely for the audience's benefit to understand that Durkon is bound mechanically and can do nothing at all, but it also implies that there are variables related to vampirism that Hel, as a goddess of death, doesn't know and would have to check into.
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Feb 19, 2014 19:26
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Was Nergal ever shown to be evil? Malack was evil, certainly, but that doesn't mean his god necessarily was. Lawful Neutral seems like it would suit a god of death just fine.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:04
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Kajeesus posted:And it looks like the main bit of development Durkon will have in the next book is having to deal with his best friend and everyone he trusted letting this happen to him. I can only imagine how Roy would try to justify it to the paladins. That's the most interesting thing here, in my opinion. I really want to know just what Durkon is going to say to Roy when he finally gets raised. Will it cause a permanent rift in their otherwise unshakable friendship?
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Feb 19, 2014 20:07
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oobey posted:That's the most interesting thing here, in my opinion. I really want to know just what Durkon is going to say to Roy when he finally gets raised. Will it cause a permanent rift in their otherwise unshakable friendship? I think there's a nonzero chance that Durkon WON'T be raised, especially now that we know that Nokrud (  ) is in control, not Durkon. Nokrud has little motivation to allow the Order to stake him willingly.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:14
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^^^ At least they can count on V not being zooped away if they fight Durkula, the devils wouldn't want a wild card screwing up their plans nor would they want to waste it. Oh god, NFL offseason, No OOTs and months until next Hardcore History. This is going to be a lovely spring for my long commute.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:29
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Glory of Arioch posted:I think there's a nonzero chance that Durkon WON'T be raised, especially now that we know that Nokrud ( I was kind of hoping this would turn out like the forgotten realms vampires, where good people who were turned into vampires were fine until the uncontrollable thirst hit. Like the famous battlerager in the last Drizzt novel. It looks like Burlew is more of a fan of the Buffy style demon vampires.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:41
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rocketrobot posted:Why? Hel is pretty evil in Norse mythology. Not really. Heck, none of Loki's children are particularly evil, at least at first. (Fenrir, for a different example, was pretty much a perfectly friendly, if loving enormous, wolf who liked the Aesir, but they grew fearful of him (because of a self-fulfilling prophecy, no less) and bound him. He caught on to this, of course, which is why he ended up biting off Tyr's hand in the final, successful binding attempt.) Hel was sent off to rule the nasty realm that was later named after her, more or less because she was really ugly (not joking), and given dominion over the dishonored dead. Her realm was an awful place to "live", but given her circumstances that's not really surprising. And, unlike Fenrir and Jormungandr, who both get revenge during Ragnarok for how the Aesir treated them, as far as I can remember Hel doesn't even do much then. She just has a terrible job that no one likes her for. She's more or less like Hades, except even less liked or respected and not a proper god. Really, a big part of Norse mythology is the Aesir doing questionable or outright awful things, such as binding Fenrir and slaying some other of Loki's children (which, as Loki is blood-brother to Odin, is kin-slaying, one of the gravest sins they could have committed), and then later facing the consequences. Loki and the others who brought said disaster upon them are bad, too, but arguably a lot of Ragnarok's events are in fact justice for the Aesir's actions. Or something; there's a thread over in Trad Games that has a lot of Norse (and other) mythology, if you want a better description and other interesting stuff.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:46
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rocketrobot posted:Why? Hel is pretty evil in Norse mythology. She wasn't so much evil as just bitter, after being given the shittiest job in Norse mythology. Like Hades, except that everyone cool specifically gets a different, better afterlife. I'm not expecting Rich to conform to mythological accuracy, either way. E: Yeah, what he said. Zetetica posted:Was Nergal ever shown to be evil? Malack was evil, certainly, but that doesn't mean his god necessarily was. Lawful Neutral seems like it would suit a god of death just fine. Presumably the whole "empire of a thousand sacrifices a day" wasn't something Malack came up with, but I guess it's not explicitly stated, neither.
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Feb 19, 2014 20:58
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I'm sure the angels of Nergal just loving love all the paperwork associated with 1000 sacrifices a day. At least when it's natural causes it's a short form.
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Feb 19, 2014 21:20
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Colonel Cool posted:Okay now I'm just about positive that Durkon is going to kill Belkar. Didn't you hear the speech about how we couldn't possibly predict the twists? That means Durkon is going to charm Roy into murdering Belkar.
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Feb 19, 2014 21:25
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Random Stranger posted:Didn't you hear the speech about how we couldn't possibly predict the twists? That means Durkon is going to charm Roy into murdering Belkar. I think Burlew's admitted to changing some story elements a few times because he hates the idea of people seussing out what's going to happen, which strikes me as a terrible flaw for a writer to have.
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Feb 19, 2014 21:36
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Glory of Arioch posted:I think there's a nonzero chance that Durkon WON'T be raised, especially now that we know that Nokrud ( Fearless prediction: he doesn't get raised, he gets destroyed at the last Gate, Durkon's soul being destroyed as well.
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Feb 19, 2014 21:58
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sfwarlock posted:Fearless prediction: he doesn't get raised, he gets destroyed at the last Gate, Durkon's soul being destroyed as well. Surprised no one has made this prediction: Belkar dies killing vampire Durkon, completing his character arc, and paying Durkon back for saving him against Malack. Neither get rezzed for ~reasons~. e: spelling Gregen fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Feb 19, 2014 |
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Feb 19, 2014 22:06
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Belkar and Durkon's spirits showing up together Yoda and Obi-Wan style would be pretty awesome.
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Feb 19, 2014 22:16
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Cornwind Evil posted:Tsk tsk Hel. You just got a front row seat for an examination of the conventions of narrative and what happens to those who don't understand them, and you're letting your servant keep Durkon around? My favourite part about Durkon getting vamped is that he chose it. Malack gave him ... three? four? fairly reasonable alternatives and he refused them all.
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Feb 19, 2014 22:28
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