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Chernori posted:I suspected as much. I really want to read it, but the thought of carrying a hefty book around while travelling is not attractive... I just got rid of the India Lonely Planet after hauling it around for months. I have both versions, and while the kindle version is still effective as teaching you, it's not as fun to read. That said, I picked it up on kindle to read on my tablet for a long plane ride and it was perfectly fine at getting all the points across.
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Feb 19, 2014 21:55
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megalodong posted:If by "aperture control" you mean being able to change the aperture, lots of P&S cameras do that. The S100+ all have aperture priority and manual mode. All the S series from the original S90 have offered full manual control, AV, and TV.
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Feb 19, 2014 21:59
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megalodong posted:If by "aperture control" you mean being able to change the aperture, lots of P&S cameras do that. The S100+ all have aperture priority and manual mode. For photographers, sure. However, If you really want to learn photography you shouldn't start out with a P&S.
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Feb 19, 2014 22:36
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whatever7 posted:IMO shooting 3000 photos is better than reading a photography book. You need a starting point with basic knowledge, that's what the book will give you. Taking 3000 photos and staring at them having no vocabulary or language to describe what you're seeing and how it should be improved is a great shortcut to giving up on photography forever. Edit: You're right, a low-end DSLR would be much better, but if he's going to get the S110 he might as well spend some time learning to use it. It's a decent package with a lot of manual controls. Mathturbator fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 13:20
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You can get to the point where you're reading more about photography than actually doing it (I've been guilty of this), but I agree with what you're saying Mathturbator. A good book can really jump start your photography/help you improve/get past plateaus. One of my favorite books I've read when I first started out was The Photographer's Eye, which is a book on composition. Honestly, I mentally refer back to that book every time I take a shot. Personally, I think things are easier to learn on a DSLR, but don't let only having access to a point and shoot stop anyone. I really wanted to get into photography in the late 90's but being a kid with no money, the prohibitive cost of film then later the cost of a DSLR stopped me. I waited 8 years until I finished HS, finished college, got settled into a job, and saved up money for my first rebel. I mistakenly thought that if I wanted to learn photography, I had to do it in a DSLR. Now I know that's not true and wish I was shooting seriously the whole time.
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Feb 20, 2014 15:19
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You wanted to seriously get into photography with film EIGHT YEARS before finishing high school??? Most kids have totally different priorities in 4th grade but bravo.
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Feb 20, 2014 15:50
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Haggins posted:Personally, I think things are easier to learn on a DSLR, but don't let only having access to a point and shoot stop anyone. Yeah echoing what this goon said. Really though, there's all sorts of different photography. What kind of pictures do you like to shoot? There's Outdoor, Street, Night, Close ups, Food, Social, Lighting, Fashion, Art, Etc... Some goons here just wanted to take pictures of drinks. Some their kids. Different types requires different techniques. So it really depends on what you are looking for. One thing is true. Your initial photos look like poo poo and looking back you would feel grossed out by them 
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Feb 20, 2014 15:54
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Mathturbator posted:You're right, a low-end DSLR would be much better, but if he's going to get the S110 he might as well spend some time learning to use it. It's a decent package with a lot of manual controls. Haggins posted:You can get to the point where you're reading more about photography than actually doing it (I've been guilty of this), but I agree with what you're saying Mathturbator. A good book can really jump start your photography/help you improve/get past plateaus. One of my favorite books I've read when I first started out was The Photographer's Eye, which is a book on composition. Honestly, I mentally refer back to that book every time I take a shot. Haggins posted:Starting with the S90 is a smart idea. I didn't really take up serious photography until 2007 when I could afford a DSLR. I figured that I needed a DSLR if I wanted to get into photography, which I now know is baloney. Looking back, I wish I just bought an affordable manually controllable point and shoot years earlier to learn on instead of waiting until I had money for gear. I started by reading up on composition even if exposure seemed to be a mental block to me. Given that I had an iPhone 4S when my photography itch hit a couple years back, and given the S-series much less a DSLR were out of my price range at the time, I just started shooting (lots of) smartphone shots with an eye for composure and hoped focusing the screen in different areas on the default app (or using AE/AF lock) would work. Then I looked at apps that gave just a bit more control (although it's still all black-box) and looking into tweaking in post. I'd agree that just shooting lots is a good way to learn and given you will always have the camera with you, also figure out if you actually like photography. With a smartphone I will say it gives you an appreciation for the better options/capabilities of P&S (which would presumably then be the same story for moving to DSLR). No better way to later appreciate a macro mode or optical zoom then having your iPhone lens within an inch of a sleeping fatass spider in a web. Now that I'm comfortable with composition I'm pushing myself to learn exposure, and going with the S-series because I don't want to throw a whole bunch of money into something I'm not sure if I'll like. With an S110 at $200 (or more generally an S90/95/100 at reasonable secondhand/last-gen prices), even if I don't end up improving until it limits me and I'm ready to jump into DSLRs, I'll have a good automatic camera that my wife and I can both use that would make sense to keep anyway. I'd also consider the G-series if the price was right but pocketability wins out there. Kenny Logins fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 16:07
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If you want to learn photography, get an used SLR and a 35mm/1.8 lens. I guarantee you can find a bundle under 300. Much fast than reading a book and then learn on a P&S. If you want to enjoy photography as a hobby, just go shoot pictures. You don't need to read a book to enjoy a hobby. Being better at something doesn't make you enjoy a hobby more. There is no correct way to enjoy a hobby.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:07
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You realize that, for many people, getting better is part of enjoying a hobby? Like, hobby woodworkers want to make a good table that won't fall over instead of just going at a block of wood with some chisels and hoping for the best. Most hobbies involve learning about something, learning how to do it, and then doing it and getting better.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:14
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whatever7 posted:If you want to learn photography, get an used SLR and a 35mm/1.8 lens. Actually I think he should get a Mamimya 645 and just with Velvia  Point and shoots nowadays are pretty drat good. Good weight, fast lens, pretty good sensors if you are not going to blow up your prints. And wifi transfer to phone. Film is fun but it gets kind of messy with developing and scanning and fixing etc.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:19
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There's also the sheer proliferation of easy-to-use, relatively inexpensive omnipresent digital camera devices that essentially make photography a hobby for everyone in 2014 if "just shoot pictures" is anything to go by. It's kind of like saying if you want to start writing as a hobby then just go jot down grocery lists or whatever. People snap (often terrible) shots simply to document literally everything and anything they do, and we live in a society where a "selfie" is now a phenomenon. I think that if you want to avoid having reading up on photography be a "requirement" just to take up the hobby, then maybe I'd say to hang out and talk with people who know what they're doing in terms of composition and/or exposure. Expose yourself to photos that you feel you like and are drawn to and either research or else ask why it is they seem so striking. Much as I'd like to pick up an old SLR kit and shoot film there's really something to be said for the ease, inexpense, immediacy and practicality of shooting digital when you're trying to learn things. It's kind of funny because between my wife and I she is really drawn to the "gadget" aspect of having a big cool DSLR (for her to use on auto mode all the time) where I'm the one who wants to take reasonable steps to get there.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:24
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powderific posted:You realize that, for many people, getting better is part of enjoying a hobby? Like, hobby woodworkers want to make a good table that won't fall over instead of just going at a block of wood with some chisels and hoping for the best. Most hobbies involve learning about something, learning how to do it, and then doing it and getting better. You don't need to read a video game magazine or guide to enjoy playing video game, why do you need to read a book to learn how to enjoy photography? There are a lot of people who like the idea of "getting good at something so my friends will compliment me". A lot of them don't actually love the hobby. My theory is most people who buy beginners for XYZ books enjoy the idea being good at something but deep down inside doesn't care about the hobby that much. And lastly. If you need to be good at photography because your job/career require it learning on SLR is much faster than on a P&S. Like 10 times faster. That's undisputed fact. I would prefer you learn on a film camera too but film development is kind of expensive nowadays. caberham posted:Actually I think he should get a Mamimya 645 and just with Velvia If your daddy can afford it, a Leica M6, definitely. It will make you become a good photography 50x faster. Like freezer turning into final form fast. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 16:29
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whatever7 posted:If you want to learn photography, get an used SLR and a 35mm/1.8 lens. I guarantee you can find a bundle under 300. Much fast than reading a book and then learn on a P&S. I think most people get into photography because they see an awesome photo/s and think to themselves "drat I would like to make something like that" or maybe they feel it's their duty to preserve something and they would like to do a good job of it (family, culture, events, etc.). If you just want to go shoot pictures and hope the dice hits and you get a good picture, then you're not really into photography. You're just a person with a camera. There is nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't call it a hobby at that point. Sure there are people who are naturals (or non-photography visual artists) that need very little instruction, however I think most people could use help. This is especially true if you have no art background what so ever. Good to hear! I think you make a good point about understanding and appreciating what your camera can do before upgrading. It's better to hit a technical wall, then buy gear, instead buying gear for technical boundaries that may or may not be an issue in your photography.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:33
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whatever7 posted:You don't need to read a video game magazine or guide to enjoy playing video game, why do you need to read a book to learn how to enjoy photography? There are a lot of people who like the idea of "getting good at something so my friends will compliment me". A lot of them don't actually love the hobby. My theory is most people who buy beginners for XYZ books enjoy the idea being good at something but deep down inside doesn't care about the hobby that much. As to the video game comparison, playing video games isn't making an end product, whereas practicing photography does (even as mere documentation), so it makes no sense to compare the two. Wouldn't you say someone could stand to read a book to learn how to write as a hobby? e:fb like crazy.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:39
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whatever7 posted:You don't need to read a video game magazine or guide to enjoy playing video game, why do you need to read a book to learn how to enjoy photography? There are a lot of people who like the idea of "getting good at something so my friends will compliment me". A lot of them don't actually love the hobby. My theory is most people who buy beginners for XYZ books enjoy the idea being good at something but deep down inside doesn't care about the hobby that much. You don't need to read a magazine to enjoy a video game, but to make a video game you probably need quite a few books.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:41
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whatever7 posted:You don't need to read a video game magazine or guide to enjoy playing video game, why do you need to read a book to learn how to enjoy photography? There are a lot of people who like the idea of "getting good at something so my friends will compliment me". A lot of them don't actually love the hobby. My theory is most people who buy beginners for XYZ books enjoy the idea being good at something but deep down inside doesn't care about the hobby that much. Videogames are designed to not need a book to get into though. It's a crafted experience like a movie. Even then, and moreso for movies than videogames admittedly, there's a whole level of criticism and analysis that's inherently a part of the "hobby." For people who really love it, a deeper understanding enhances the experience. And you absolutely do need to read or learn through some other means for many hobbies. I'd argue most. And with most, being good at it and getting better isn't just a thing to impress your friends (unless you're somehow broken.) It's just part of enjoying the hobby. Woodworking, car projects, knitting, origami, poetry, whatever. Or playing an instrument. Maybe just loving around will be satisfying for a few minutes, but having it become something you're interested in long term is probably going to involve learning a bit.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:51
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whatever7 posted:If your daddy can afford it, a Leica M6, definitely. It will make you become a good photography 50x faster. Like freezer turning into final form fast. I can afford a M9. My dad can afford a Leaf.
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Feb 20, 2014 16:55
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Reading a book is nice if you need to know step X + Y to get result Z. Which if you're new, you will probably need. The biggest problem as a newbie is finding someone to honestly criticize your work. Facebook and Flickr are full of people who just got into photography and will never improve because no one ever told them they sucked. The critique thread was great for that. Why did that ever go away?
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Feb 20, 2014 17:24
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Telling someone who wants to improve at photography that they have to go out and buy a dSLR and lens kit is incredibly terrible advice. Gear does not make the photographer. It's way, way more important to have something that you're willing to take out and actually take pictures with on a regular basis.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:08
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Mr. Despair posted:I have both versions, and while the kindle version is still effective as teaching you, it's not as fun to read. That said, I picked it up on kindle to read on my tablet for a long plane ride and it was perfectly fine at getting all the points across. I ended up just buying the Kindle version and went through it on the bus today. I agree with you and I feel I benefited from it. The book ends a bit abruptly, doesn't it? It's chatting about flashes then suddenly it's the index. whatever7 posted:You don't need to read a video game magazine or guide to enjoy playing video game, why do you need to read a book to learn how to enjoy photography? I feel like you're right in some ways and wrong in others. I do think I've learned a lot by taking literally thousands of photos over the past year or so. However. I also learned a lot of things just spending a few hours reading Understanding Exposure that could have taken thousands more photos to realize (for example, I had no idea that f2.0 on my TG-1 P&S is equivalent to a much higher f-stop on a DSLR or that the middle f-stops allow a lens to take higher quality photos). I think a lot of budding photographers buy a camera and take a bunch of photos, then wonder why they didn't come out the way they wanted. Why is my background out of focus? Why are these photos washed out? How come this photo is so blue? I think it's natural for many people to just give up, assuming that they need a better camera for really good photos or they just don't have the talent for it. It can be discouraging to figure out everything by trial and error.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:56
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Krispy Kareem posted:Reading a book is nice if you need to know step X + Y to get result Z. Which if you're new, you will probably need. There are two sides to photography. One side is the technical, which revolves around knowing how to use your gear and understanding the behavior of light. This is the easiest part of photography to master and can be done by reading those X+Y=Z "recipe" books along with some practice. You only really need to read a few of those types of books to understand how things work, after that it's all about experience. The other side is the artistic, which is the most important and hardest to master. You can get to the point where you're perfectly happy with your technical skill, however, you should never want to stop improving your artistic skills no matter how good you are. There are lots of books out there that are more philosophical and go more into the "why" of shooting. Books like these can change the way you approach the craft and can help you improve in ways you'd probably never find out on your own. A good example (and one of my favorite books) is Within the Frame: The Journey of Photographic Vision by David duChemin. Read that book and tell me you didn't learn anything. Honest critique is a good thing for any body of any skill level, however, if you want it to be useful, you need to get critique from someone who is better than you. If you're new to the craft that's going to be almost any body around here. The longer you've been shooting, the harder you need to look for people to critique you. I think a lot of goons in his forum got really good and to the point where they weren't getting valuable feedback from the thread. They're at the point where they need to carefully chose their critique-rs and not just rely on who ever feels like posting in the thread at that particular moment. Maybe what we need is to set up one on one critique thread or something. I wouldn't mind doing that for another goon and there are certain goons around here who I would like to learn something from. Edit: Wait uhh the critique thread is still there and it seems like it's in good shape. Haggins fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 19:40
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Turns out the S110 was marked down another 50 dollars (since 3 days ago) to $149.99 CAD at my local Costco and comes with a nice Canon case. The cashier said they're flying off the shelves. Glad I went to get mine tonight!
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Feb 21, 2014 00:14
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Kenny Logins posted:Turns out the S110 was marked down another 50 dollars (since 3 days ago) to $149.99 CAD at my local Costco and comes with a nice Canon case. The cashier said they're flying off the shelves. Glad I went to get mine tonight! Wow thats pretty nice. It still bugs me though that people(who I work with) always ask me "I want a really really good camera bro! My budget is like $250. That's like really baller right? I can get one of those big cameras with the lenz@!". And I know these people can spare more than $250 for a camera.
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Feb 21, 2014 00:47
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You can get a Nex 3 with a lenz@! for like $300 on Amazon now so that's not too far off. I think smartphone subsidies have broken American's brains as far as the value they expect to get out of electronic devices.
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Feb 21, 2014 00:59
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We're in the market for a new camera to replace or complement our aging Sony Cybershot. We want a viewfinder, would like a touchscreen, and really really want wi-fi. Considering all this, what are our best options for under 200 or 300 bucks?
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Feb 21, 2014 01:06
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Golbez posted:We're in the market for a new camera to replace or complement our aging Sony Cybershot. That criteria only turned up 1 camera: http://www.dpreview.com/products/se...ireless=BuiltIn And it's $700 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1011024&is=REG&Q=&A=details
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Feb 21, 2014 01:15
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Chernori posted:I ended up just buying the Kindle version and went through it on the bus today. I agree with you and I feel I benefited from it. The book ends a bit abruptly, doesn't it? It's chatting about flashes then suddenly it's the index. I just want to clarify something. I m not against reading beginners books in general (even though I kind of did in previous posts.) I am just recommend against learning photography and using a P&S at the same time. P&S has a lot of helper wheel features on it that are 1) blackbox operation and 2) just there to make you feel awesome. Ok Sunset mode, WTF does it do? boost contrast? HDR? exposure to the highlight? Nobody knows? So you took a decent picture with that mode, so what did you do? You don't know! Secondly, vast majority of the P&S are not designed to used outside of the full auto mode. I have used P&S that it only have 2 actual aperture setting, wide open or f/8. All the other aperture was simulated (I think it was a Fuji F20. Yes the advertisement said it has aperture priority and you can control the aperture. But can you really?) Also flash mode, is it front or rear curtain sync? You can't even find out in the manual, you have to shoot something moving to find out yourself. Not only do most of the manual functions not enjoyable to use but also hard to translate to operation on an advance camera. There are only very few P&S control layout designed with photographer in mind, the Canon G series for example. Basically I think learning photography on a P&S is not enjoyable. It's like instead of learn manual shift on a sportscar, you have to learn stick shift on a truck. It's not fun, its not enjoyable. It will make you think less of the hobby.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:43
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For every person like you who finds basic cameras too limiting when they start there are 50 people who jump right in, buy a dSLR and then essentially abandon it in 6 months because they have no idea how to use it. Telling someone to do the latter because point and shoot cameras have fewer manual controls than a dSLR is staggeringly awful advice.
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Feb 21, 2014 01:51
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whatever7 posted:I just want to clarify something. I m not against reading beginners books in general (even though I kind of did in previous posts.) I am just recommend against learning photography and using a P&S at the same time. P&S has a lot of helper wheel features on it that are 1) blackbox operation and 2) just there to make you feel awesome. Ok Sunset mode, WTF does it do? boost contrast? HDR? exposure to the highlight? Nobody knows? So you took a decent picture with that mode, so what did you do? You don't know! Maybe you shouldn't base your opinions of P&S cameras off a stripped-down F30 that came out in 2006? I mean the whole reason the thread title has "buy an s100" in it is because it, like the sony rx***, is geared at "enthusiast" shooters and has all those nice features like curtain sync (it even describes it in the manual!). You can even shift them to those weird modes like "M" and "Tv" and ignore the fancy arty things completely.
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Feb 21, 2014 02:09
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Shaocaholica posted:That criteria only turned up 1 camera: Ouch. Thanks for checking; Which criterion of those is the most restricting/expensive?
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Feb 21, 2014 04:02
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Golbez posted:Ouch. Thanks for checking; Which criterion of those is the most restricting/expensive? Viewfinder. Companies have realized that most people don't use the tiny, crappy viewfinders that come on compact cameras anymore. It's not an issue of expense, it's just more rare. A Canon G15 would be your best bet there, but it doesn't have a touchscreen. Why do you want a touchscreen? They aren't that useful on compact cameras for the most part, and only the the higher end mirrorless cameras use it to good effect (choosing focus points).
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Feb 21, 2014 04:17
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Costello Jello posted:Viewfinder. Companies have realized that most people don't use the tiny, crappy viewfinders that come on compact cameras anymore. It's not an issue of expense, it's just more rare. A Canon G15 would be your best bet there, but it doesn't have a touchscreen. Why do you want a touchscreen? They aren't that useful on compact cameras for the most part, and only the the higher end mirrorless cameras use it to good effect (choosing focus points). Touchscreen was the least important, we just thought it would be good. Really wanted a viewfinder due to daylight and glare making it difficult to see what the camera's about to photograph. Surprised that's not a more common option...
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Feb 21, 2014 08:47
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Oh, and I suggest checking out how the WiFi works before buying. Not how well, but how. On my RX100II (which is pure awesome BTW), the camera creates a new wireless network that you have to connect to, and open an application that pulls the images from the camera. I thought it would connect to my home wifi and ship the files via FTP, but that's not how it works. Turns out it's easier and faster to pull the SD card and shove it into my computer.
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Feb 21, 2014 10:39
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Golbez posted:Touchscreen was the least important, we just thought it would be good. Really wanted a viewfinder due to daylight and glare making it difficult to see what the camera's about to photograph. Surprised that's not a more common option... The problem is that it's hard to fit a good/accurate viewfinder into a body that small so you might as well use the screen instead.
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Feb 21, 2014 10:42
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whatever7 posted:I am just recommend against learning photography and using a P&S at the same time. P&S has a lot of helper wheel features on it that are 1) blackbox operation and 2) just there to make you feel awesome. Ok Sunset mode, WTF does it do? boost contrast? HDR? exposure to the highlight? Nobody knows? So you took a decent picture with that mode, so what did you do? You don't know! grack posted:For every person like you who finds basic cameras too limiting when they start there are 50 people who jump right in, buy a dSLR and then essentially abandon it in 6 months because they have no idea how to use it. I think there's a balance here. I do agree that (most) P&S cameras hide a lot of the camera's operation from you, which might prevent someone from gaining more knowledge about photography in general, because they'll just select whatever setting the camera suggests and use it. alternatively, they might simply grow disillusioned by the camera's limits showing up in their photos and think that they lack talent. I have a TG-1 and I've found it increasingly irritating to use as my skill (and ideas!) have grown. I do find myself struggling to understand my camera's internal logic, as it seemingly randomly picks apertures and shutter speeds, often causing two photos taken in sequence to look completely different. I feel like I'm constantly trying to trick it into doing what I want. That being said, I think Grack has a good point. I don't think I would have learned nearly as much if I started on a DSLR, simply because I wouldn't have really known where to start and I would have felt intimidated to use the camera. I probably would have taken way fewer photos: using a DSLR feels more "serious" somehow, than just snapping things with your P&S, and it feels like only really worthwhile photos should be taken. DSLRs also feel more valuable, ostentatious, and fragile to a beginner. Having a simple P&S made me feel confident enough to shoot a lot. I sort of feel like your car analogy could be reversed. Learning to drive stick on a sports car would be intimidating and discouraging, while learning to drive on a modest sedan would be a lot less stressful and let you focus on the basics. When you start noticing the limits of the sedan, then you could look into getting something with more control and features.
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Feb 21, 2014 11:16
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The other part of it is what megalodong posted. whatever is basing all of this on using a pretty crappy point and shoot released 7+ years ago. His experiences really aren't all that relevant, especially when compared to something like a Canon S110.
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Feb 21, 2014 18:30
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Costello Jello posted:Viewfinder. Companies have realized that most people don't use the tiny, crappy viewfinders that come on compact cameras anymore. It's not an issue of expense, it's just more rare. A Canon G15 would be your best bet there, but it doesn't have a touchscreen. Why do you want a touchscreen? They aren't that useful on compact cameras for the most part, and only the the higher end mirrorless cameras use it to good effect (choosing focus points). There are plenty of good EVFs out there. Just not in that price range. IMO the OVF in the Canon Gs are a waste of space.
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Feb 21, 2014 19:47
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grack posted:The other part of it is what megalodong posted. Yeah, P&Ss have changed a lot in the past decade, especially with the new "enthusiast" ones coming out. I'm so excited to get an RX100 and be able to take exposures longer than half a second! Out of curiosity, will an RX100 have a more depth of field than a DSLR at the same f-stop? So, if I'm on f2 on an RX100, it would be more like f8 on a DSLR?
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Feb 22, 2014 05:13
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Chernori posted:Yeah, P&Ss have changed a lot in the past decade, especially with the new "enthusiast" ones coming out. I'm so excited to get an RX100 and be able to take exposures longer than half a second! You will get a higher DOF due to the smaller sensor, I don't think it's quite that extreme. You can use this website: http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html to figure it out.
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Feb 22, 2014 05:19
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