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Voyager I posted:Thanks to gate cloak and the game using 1 second server ticks, it's mechanically impossible to catch something coming through a gate if it has an align time under two seconds. CCP has nerfed the agility of Interceptors, particulary Crows and Maledictions, which were the most problematic, to try to mitigate the effectiveness of literally untouchable roaming gangs. It can still be done, but it involves fits with three or more Inertia Stabilizers in the low slots and even something that isn't literally impossible to catch still requires very, very high lock times to catch. This is what people need to understand. Eve servers work on 1 second ticks. Assuming I have a perfect connection to the server and an infinite scan res, it takes 2 seconds for me to tackle a ship (one second to confirm lock the ship, one second to activate a scram/disruptor). Excluding for a second the case of interceptors, this is fine for normal play. Most frigates can be fit to align under 2 sec, but they're not bubble immune, making them possible to catch. Other ships that are immune (T3s) take 5+ seconds to align, making them possible to catch. Interceptors combine both immunity to bubbles and sub 2 second aligns, making them impossible to catch outside of pilot error or network instability.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:00
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Skuto posted:To be honest, after enjoying the pleasure of having a good night sleep and still being on a whole load of killmails in a totally-not-my-TZ fight, I'm not convinced moving the triggers from the FC to SQ necessarily kills the doctrine. It was never about the volley. It was always about the triggers being damped down to nothing. Any veteran that remembers multispecs pre 07 it's basically the same problem. This means basically we are back to whoever brings more players win with no amount of skill/isk being a solution to FYF. E: and before you scream good why should more players win? What should be the threshold? Should I with billions of isk, 150m sp, and years of experience always lose a 2v1 to less sp/isk/experienced players? 3v1? 5v1? FoF fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 17:00
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Just revive smartbombing gatecamps. Lost a taranis to a geddonbait. But that was before the inty change. So are all the lost maledictions due to pilot error? Or just lucky tackle? e: keep your scram hot. And I do agree ceptors need a counter to catch the fuckers. But I also like the current ceptors. darthzeta88 fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 17:03
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Skuto posted:Ah, gotcha. But even if the coordination gets worse than it is now, it's still going to be better than 255 people firing individually. e: I am, indeed, completely wrong. Baronash fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 17:04
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Oh no, people will have to be awake and at their keyboards to get killmails. 
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Feb 20, 2014 17:05
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darthzeta88 posted:Just revive smartbombing gatecamps. Lost a taranis to a geddonbait. But that was before the inty change. So are all the lost maledictions due to pilot error? Or just lucky tackle? Last time I heard people theory-crafting, it's very hard to smartbomb the interceptors effectively - usually you do this by using a bubble to catch people at a particular point, but with the bubble immunity you can't do that. It takes, I think, at least three smartbombs to kill a Malediction, and it can be tough to get this to all hit correctly with how fast the ships are. It didn't seem impossible, just that you end up needing a lot of people in battleships to make it happen. I don't know how many Maledictions deaths are on gates - is there even any way to tell that? I believe most of the interceptor deaths are from when they choose to engage and lose, or when they are doing something besides warping gate-to-gate (it's possible to catch an interceptor jumping in on your before it can realign and jump out, it's only gates where they are virtually immune).
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Feb 20, 2014 17:10
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Angela Christine posted:Oh no, people will have to be awake and at their keyboards to get killmails. I got 40+ killmails last night and I didn't even look at my eve screen. Hell, I left my dude logged in and assisted today and afaik he's helping to flip the station. 
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Feb 20, 2014 17:10
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darthzeta88 posted:So are all the lost maledictions due to pilot error? Or just lucky tackle? CCP just made ceptors unkillable by goons.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:10
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Oh for February it is the 3rd most killed ship type and second place for most lost below frigates by GoonSwarm Federation 
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Feb 20, 2014 17:17
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Mexplosivo posted:Oh for February it is the 3rd most killed ship type and second place for most lost below frigates by GoonSwarm Federation Not to distract you from your  , but how many of those were Maledictions or Crows with proper fits unwillingly caught in gate camps?
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Feb 20, 2014 17:29
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Well if they can be caught in gate camps (willingly or unwillingly) then i'm not sure what the argument is.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:33
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Angela Christine posted:Oh no, people will have to be awake and at their keyboards to get killmails. Next thing you know we'll have to be active to earn money. I can already see the slippery slope of having to grind skills. No way.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:35
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JohnSherman posted:My understanding of it, and someone will probably correct me, is that the theoretical DPS of drone fleets is actually lower than turrets, but the ability to fire every drone in fleet at once gave drone assist doctrines the edge. Since we are moving away from domis post-patch, I'd say that will no longer be the case. No, before the nerfs drones had damage and range that were generally on the high end for large guns combined with absolutely ridiculous tracking. They were basically large guns that tracked like mediums, which meant hilarious poo poo like Interceptors with full transversal being unable to come anywhere near them. Jayne Fillion ran some numerical comparisons in a TMDC article here. This has since been toned down with nerfs to the Dominix hull itself and the Omnidirectional Tracking Link module, which previously provided the same bonus as a scripted Tracking Computer to both range and tracking simultaneously. Of course, there are also some benefits to drone assist fleets that wont' show up on graphs. For example, a Dominix doesn't need to lock its own targets, so where most fleet battleships would need to fit a Sensor Booster, it can fit another tracking module instead. Still, I want to thank N3 for repeatedly attempting to fly Proteus Fleets against giant blobs of things that could not fail to track you. EDIT: Mexplosivo posted:Well if they can be caught in gate camps (willingly or unwillingly) then i'm not sure what the argument is. I think you missed his point entirely, but that's okay because you actually weren't adding anything to the discussion anyways. (HINT: we aren't talking about Interceptors in general. Properly fit, Maledictions and Crows can't be caught on gatecamps, which means you can't do anything to keep them out of your space) Voyager I fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 17:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If they can in fact be caught by other properly fit interceptors then what little problem there was is solved and y'all should stop whining about the single most fun class of ship in the game finally being good again. I remembering fighting in J-5 or whatever that first big fight in the Fountain War was in an Interceptor and compared to now I'm happy I didn't give up on that ship class.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:49
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Yes, ceptors are awesome, more so with the new changes. I love them.
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Feb 20, 2014 17:51
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I've still not flown one! Are they viable for solo dicking about in lowsec?... I'm guessing they are a little too fragile?...
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Feb 20, 2014 17:56
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I flew an agility fit Ares from VFK to 1V- last night in about 10 minutes with absolutely zero risk (barring my network connection giving out). It was like 40 jumps. But yeah gently caress trying to engage an interceptor gang on your terms, it will not happen.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:03
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Cerebral Wolf posted:I've still not flown one! They shine in null sec where they are bubble immune. There's very little to stop them roaming through your space if flown/fitted correctly. They die because they are pretty fragile, but that's only after they are looking for combat. During most hours, Deklin is flooded by interceptors.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:04
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Deklein is also unique in that ishtars/vexor navy issues are super popular and they can be solo killed by a missile interceptor.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:06
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various cheeses posted:I flew an agility fit Ares from VFK to 1V- last night in about 10 minutes with absolutely zero risk (barring my network connection giving out). I'm guessing there's going to be another re-balance sometime, because... they are slightly broken.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:08
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I have used a Crow to move from G-0 to AF0 to 1V- and basically just cruised past any neutrals/hostiles laughing. I blew through a couple bubble camps and never even blinked. They are pretty dreamy for getting around but yea, they're fragile as hell and don't actually put out amazing DPS (the Crow/Malediction fits are something like 70-80, I think). The advantage is that you can often basically dictate if and how an engagement occurs, but its possible you'll blow through systems unable to find something you can take. Most of those Inty killmails are people picking the wrong fight, to give you some idea. I rat in a Geddon and I'm very careful about intel, but even when I haven't been on the ball no inty has ever engaged me. I assume that there is no reason for them to pick on a ship that they suspect has a conscious pilot and neuts when they can breeze a system over and find an AFK VNI to pop instead.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:17
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S-Alpha posted:Look, it's great that you have this love for interceptors and loving around with them, but you're sounding a lot like the dudes on Eve-O when the drone assist patch got announced. Just because you like it doesn't mean it doesn't have problems. When control of nullsec is determined by who can field the most Maledictions, maybe this won't be a completely retarded comparison.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:22
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People who are mad about interceptors are just not using the proper strategy to deal with them. Yes, the align-fit inty is impossible to catch or hold down, but they're also incapably weak. The only people they can kill are the afk or terrible, and they have to run from anything that can hit them. Chasing them around with the normal theta defense fleet is dumb because they can outrun you and you'll never catch them. They are happy to let you chase them around because they know you'd rather be ratting and they are making you waste your time. These are tactics straight out of our own playbook! Instead, what theta should do is make a rota fund that pays for one guy in an arty wolf or thrasher to chase them around. That guy spends a couple hours playing benny hill until they get bored and gently caress off, and the fund partially offsets his lost ratting time. Cerebral Wolf posted:I've still not flown one!
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Feb 20, 2014 18:32
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:When control of nullsec is determined by who can field the most Maledictions, maybe this won't be a completely retarded comparison. It's more the unwillingness to see that the balance of your favorite tactic is out of whack. Zero risk ships don't make for good balance.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:33
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Klyith posted:People who are mad about interceptors are just not using the proper strategy to deal with them. Yes, the align-fit inty is impossible to catch or hold down, but they're also incapably weak. The only people they can kill are the afk or terrible, and they have to run from anything that can hit them. This is pretty much how i see things. Yes game mechanics changed and our ratting habits and strategies will have to adapt but ceptors are anything but unkillable if the choose to engage.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:35
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Ashcans posted:I rat in a Geddon Jesus why?
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Feb 20, 2014 18:36
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:When control of nullsec is determined by who can field the most Maledictions, maybe this won't be a completely retarded comparison. But it's still the same "a bloo bloo bloo, this thing I like that's really good should stay really good" whining. It's okay to admit that your favorite trick is powerful. Yes, you don't want to see it get nerfed, but the same poo poo that makes you get your jollies loving with dudes is the same poo poo that's infuriating to deal with on home defense fleets. I've been in Theta Homeland Defense fleets that just throw up their arms and say "gently caress it, we can't catch these guys, stand down", and that shouldn't be happening.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:38
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Skuto posted:It's more the unwillingness to see that the balance of your favorite tactic is out of whack. Zero risk ships don't make for good balance. It's not my favorite tactic; I fly Taranises. I just consider uncatchable interceptors an incredibly inoffensive issue and only-barely catchable interceptors not an issue at all. S-Alpha posted:But it's still the same "a bloo bloo bloo, this thing I like that's really good should stay really good" whining. I'm not the one whining, I'm the one cheerfully accepting Fozzie's design choices.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:39
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S-Alpha posted:But it's still the same "a bloo bloo bloo, this thing I like that's really good should stay really good" whining. What ships are you using for home defense fleets? You know Interceptors can be caught by AssFrigs and Destroyers (the latter I'm not entirely positive on) right?
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Feb 20, 2014 18:41
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Uba Stij posted:What ships are you using for home defense fleets? You know Interceptors can be caught by AssFrigs and Destroyers (the latter I'm not entirely positive on) right? Not if they have an align time of less then 2 seconds. The only thing that stand a chance of catching one is a multisebo'd interceptor and thats only if they gently caress up or are fit for less than 2 second aligns.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:43
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Klyith posted:Chasing them around with the normal theta defense fleet is dumb because they can outrun you and you'll never catch them. They are happy to let you chase them around because they know you'd rather be ratting and they are making you waste your time. These are tactics straight out of our own playbook! A lone interceptor, or even a pair of them really aren't the problem. If I'm properly setup on a gate with my keres and sensor boosting/shield repping osprey it is usually pretty trivial to blap one on the way into system, and catch the second on his way out. The real issue is the gang of 6 to 12 inties that tend to flood into deklein on shifts, that can take the loss of a single ceptor to our gate camp and then merrily continue on to gank whoever they can find.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:44
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Apparently they're going to be rebalancing loot tables on Exploration, as well as removing loot spew. drat. I liked being able to make money that way. Edit: What I mean is that hopefully they don't cripple the ISK gain from it. Which given my experience with gaming companies, will be the case. Artificer fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 18:45
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Artificer posted:Apparently they're going to be rebalancing loot tables on Exploration, as well as removing loot spew. drat. Do you have a link? A couple of my friends make their money through exploration so I should probably give them a heads up. They don't really follow out of game news.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:53
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm not the one whining, I'm the one cheerfully accepting Fozzie's design choices. Yeah, you're right. Instead every time it gets brought up, you're all "guys, they're just fine, these problems aren't problems because they don't affect me."
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Feb 20, 2014 18:53
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I've still lost more VNIs to rats than to interceptors.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:54
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:If they can in fact be caught by other properly fit interceptors then what little problem there was is solved and y'all should stop whining about the single most fun class of ship in the game finally being good again. CCP makes inty changes Every shitlord and their mother flies inties Balanced and Fair gameplay. Look, I'll try and do this simply for you Tuxedo. If inties were balanced and fair, then why is it almost always interceptor gangs? HAC gangs are less and less often, hell even blops gangs are becoming less frequent.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:56
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Famethrowa posted:Jesus why? Why not? Geddons have the same drone damage bonus (read: not application bonus) as a dominix and have bonused neut range, monster large capacitors, MJDs, and a large cargohold allowing a huge range of tricks when refitting off of a mobile depot. If you have Amarr BS trained already and have good drone skills, it can perform acceptably.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:56
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Trabisnikof posted:I've still lost more VNIs to rats than to interceptors. Angry Mustache has lost more VNIs to my troll comments in the TMC jabber than to hostiles 
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Feb 20, 2014 18:56
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Famethrowa posted:Jesus why? I can't say no to a huge dick, so until they're doctrine ships again I have to find something to do with it.
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Feb 20, 2014 18:56
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Mimetic posted:Do you have a link? A couple of my friends make their money through exploration so I should probably give them a heads up. They don't really follow out of game news. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4259845#post4259845 I got the link from a reddit post. The comments seem to imply that the summation was reasonably accurate, though I can't confirm for myself at the moment because the forum seems to be down. Edit: Forums seem to be back up. Yeah it seems like the Loot Tables will likely be nerfed. That sucks. 
Artificer fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Feb 20, 2014 |
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Feb 20, 2014 19:00
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