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SEKCobra posted:How about in house developers who also run your side of things? Oh devops, so efficient in theory.
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# ? Feb 20, 2014 20:10 |
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# ? May 23, 2024 15:44 |
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Sickening posted:Oh devops, so efficient in theory. Oh devops, a lovely, lovely theory that has no redeeming quality whatsoever. "Hey, let's take a profession that needs to be focused to be effective and add constant random interruptions while also trying to hold the worker to processes that only make sense for dedicated development teams." There is nothing good about devops, and I don't even know if it would be possible to make it good. Operations work is almost always reactively focused and you can't tell how much of it there will be in any given day. Is the SAN going to pitch a fit and take down all your servers? Is a switch going to go belly up? Is everything going to work perfectly? Are you going to be called at 4am because someone can't figure out how to log in, and screams at the poor helpdesk tech that "THE SYSTEM IS DOWN!!!"? Who knows! Okay, now be a developer and commit to timelines and a project management methodology. Also, do your own testing! Oh, you signed off on testing you did yourself? Awesome! Documentation? Naw, I built the system, I don't need to document it! I'll just remember how it all goes together! What's that you say, we have a new guy? Oh well. Hope he literally can telepathically extract the info from the dev's head, because it sure isn't written down, and good luck getting them to share how their crusty systems are built. Can you tell I'm working in a devops team right now?
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# ? Feb 20, 2014 20:55 |
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I want to find the person at my company who numbered our internal network with 128.1.x.x Then I want to ask them when the gently caress they realized this was a dumb idea and just said "gently caress it let's see where it goes"
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# ? Feb 20, 2014 21:06 |
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Urit posted:Oh devops, a lovely, lovely theory that has no redeeming quality whatsoever.
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# ? Feb 20, 2014 21:14 |
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Devops from the other side is "Encourage dev to release and test a stable product by waking them up at 4am when their lovely application goes down, rather than have them just throw it over the fence to ops with a 'good luck!' every single release" Also, devops produces people with a basic understanding of the OSI model and what happens outside their little container. You know, useful stuff like cpu/memory usage, network bandwidth, performance, monitoring, all that stuff baked in at the dev level rather than slapped on at the ops level. Maybe even the ability to understand why they don't just slap together 3 outer joins or why they can't just throw more memory at their app. Edit: Which is awesome. In theory. I've never worked at a place it happens, but I can dream! Bhodi fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Feb 20, 2014 |
# ? Feb 20, 2014 21:27 |
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Urit posted:Oh devops, a lovely, lovely theory that has no redeeming quality whatsoever. This is why I dont feel as part of devops. More like "Hey you can program too? Ok you are now in charge of all testing also no you cant have hardware or time for this. I also I need you to find me a tool for x." "Hey theres a call and no one from Ops wants to go and you are just sitting there doing thing I dont understand. You go." "What do you mean you were out on calls??" I basically am expected to learn Java in our shared office/workshop/small parts storage on my own and without exemption from regular work. My boss even scolded me for "Poor work ethics trying to avoid going on calls" after he forced this on me. Also I get no money for this either. 2 more years...
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# ? Feb 20, 2014 21:53 |
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evol262 posted:Oh, man. This is so not what devops means. Paging Misogynist. Sorry, I'm just going off of approximately 4 years of experience with "devops" teams. I know that's not the actual theoretical meaning of devops, it's just what gets implemented.
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# ? Feb 20, 2014 22:13 |
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SEKCobra posted:This is why I dont feel as part of devops. More like "Hey you can program too? Ok you are now in charge of all testing also no you cant have hardware or time for this. I also I need you to find me a tool for x." DevOps basically means two things:
Breaking down silos doesn't mean breaking down roles. It means that if someone fucks something up and it means that someone else a) can't get their job done or b) has a living hell of a life now, it's their job to fix it. It was a methodology developed to fix one very specific problem: some cowboy shithead developer who circumvents QA and testing doesn't get to push code from their desktop to production on a Friday at 5 PM because, gently caress it, on-call ops will deal with it. If DevOps could be summarized in one sentence: it's your mess, have the common courtesy to loving clean it up. There's a lot of small details that have come to be associated with the term: continuous integration, rigorous systems automation, in-depth monitoring and metrics collection, etc. These are details. It comes down to confidence in your work through confidence in the process: if you gently caress up, you should know before anyone else does. You should know you hosed up before it hits production. A user should never know somebody hosed up. The term has gotten so oversaturated and stripped of meaning by incompetent half-measure practitioners that, like ITIL, I've stopped using it, but people should at least be aware of what it meant.
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# ? Feb 20, 2014 22:52 |
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Misogynist posted:
Tell me more about these wonderlands where people are accountable for anything at all. Serious-post edit: Got any stuff I can read about ITIL and devops that are actual serious things rather than "THIS ONE WEIRD TRICK TO DISCOVERED BY A WISCONSIN MAN TO MAKE YOUR COMPANY JUST LIKE GOOGLE: PMS HATE HIM" marketing docs? It's a pain to find anything at all that's not marketing bullshit. Urit fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Feb 20, 2014 |
# ? Feb 20, 2014 23:00 |
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Misogynist posted:If DevOps could be summarized in one sentence: it's your mess, have the common courtesy to loving clean it up. I'm again embarrassed for my industry that we had to come up with a specialized term for "personal responsibility" just for developers.
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# ? Feb 20, 2014 23:43 |
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I can't really go into specifics here but I'll try and convey my frustrations I am currently on a project for a client that has some very high security requirements We made a decision earlier in the project to allow 1 network to connect to certain resources on another network which info sec guys boss agreed to in writing. Now the client is bemused at why said resources are accessible so info sec guy is pointing the finger at me and my line manager saying you shouldn't have ever connected those certain things to that network However info sec guy attached an email from his boss (who we also ultimately report to ) stating we all agreed to do what we did (so I feel I'm well covered) 8 am telecon to discuss next steps. I feel O/T coming on...
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# ? Feb 20, 2014 23:51 |
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Misogynist posted:Yeah, so it's been said already, but none of this has anything to do with DevOps. Basically this. I hate devops, but only because 1. I hate being on call 2. I'm traditionally in roles where if something were to go sideways, not only is it probably not my fault but I wouldn't know how to or be able to fix it. But, because I'm a developer, ~devops~ means you're on the on call rotation for the general product. Fortunately, management at my last job finally wised up to #2 about a year before I left, and I'm now not doing pager duty at all, so my life has gotten much happier. But, like misogynist said, devops isn't the reason that your company stinks, your company is the reason that your company stinks. There should always be a dedicated QA department; developers should test their own changes but someone needs to double test it and sign off. It sounds like your company just found a way to cut QA staffing while calling it a win to themselves.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 00:07 |
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Urit posted:Okay, now be a developer and commit to timelines and a project management methodology. By definition only the project manager needs to abide by their domain methodology. I'm looking forward to a Google technical project manager interview, the only interesting material in regards to project management I could find was from Microsoft: http://www.microsoft.com/project/en/gb/policies-delay.aspx Which I summarize as "PMP's and project management are hokey".
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 00:11 |
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angry armadillo posted:I can't really go into specifics here but I'll try and convey my frustrations This is exactly why controlled access networks exist. You should be proxying everything through or have joint resources in a DMZ that's tightly controlled. Urit posted:Tell me more about these wonderlands where people are accountable for anything at all. Devops basically means "gently caress dev -> qa -> production and the associated change requests, blackbox QA testing, etc". You should do those things anyway. But I shouldn't need to read your deployment document to figure out how to ship it. You should check into source control, have an automated test suite run which rejects your code if it fails code smells, build a package, spin up a new VM which is provisioned from configuration management (or an entire virtual environment for your test database/etc), and do automated testing there. And ops/admins/devs/dbas should work together so they all know how the moving parts work and what can break. No more "works for me" or "copy this file into the web root" or whatever. Clean, reproducable results with standardized tools that the entire team knows and and owns, even if there are still individual content owners. Want to read about devops? Read about jenkins. And gerrit. And puppet/chef/salt/ansible. And openstack/aws/powercli. And selenium. And... Misogynist posted:You're right, in a sense, but a little bit of history is necessary here to really understand some nuances of the movement.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 00:12 |
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Che Delilas posted:I'm again embarrassed for my industry that we had to come up with a specialized term for "personal responsibility" just for developers.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 00:22 |
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evol262 posted:Devops basically means "gently caress dev -> qa -> production and the associated change requests, blackbox QA testing, etc". You should do those things anyway. But I shouldn't need to read your deployment document to figure out how to ship it. You should check into source control, have an automated test suite run which rejects your code if it fails code smells, build a package, spin up a new VM which is provisioned from configuration management (or an entire virtual environment for your test database/etc), and do automated testing there. And ops/admins/devs/dbas should work together so they all know how the moving parts work and what can break. No more "works for me" or "copy this file into the web root" or whatever. Clean, reproducable results with standardized tools that the entire team knows and and owns, even if there are still individual content owners. Yeah, I use Chef/Jenkins every day. The problem is, my lovely organization basically views Chef as a replacement for AD Group Policy () and a way to run server setup scripts. They don't do any config management. Source control is treated as a roadblock, not an assistance. Code reviews are nonexistent, pull requests are auto-approved because no one has time to read the diff in Stash and understand that the commit would gently caress up performance or fill up a disk when it actually ran. Testing is done on crusty old VMs, almost no one does a fresh VM setup as a test. I'm personally all about that stuff you said. I think Volmarias hit it on the head. I just haven't run into an company that actually does any of those cool things, but they sure call what they do "devops" and that's what people think of when they hear it. Volmarias posted:devops isn't the reason that your company stinks, your company is the reason that your company stinks. My rant about devops was the "poo poo that was pissing me off".
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 00:24 |
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Urit posted:Yeah, I use Chef/Jenkins every day. The problem is, my lovely organization basically views Chef as a replacement for AD Group Policy () and a way to run server setup scripts. They don't do any config management. Source control is treated as a roadblock, not an assistance. Code reviews are nonexistent, pull requests are auto-approved because no one has time to read the diff in Stash and understand that the commit would gently caress up performance or fill up a disk when it actually ran. Testing is done on crusty old VMs, almost no one does a fresh VM setup as a test. I'm personally all about that stuff you said. I think Volmarias hit it on the head. I just haven't run into an company that actually does any of those cool things, but they sure call what they do "devops" and that's what people think of when they hear it. Is this in Windows? If so they really should be doing this with Powershell's Desired State Configuration
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 00:28 |
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Misogynist posted:The term has gotten so oversaturated and stripped of meaning by incompetent half-measure practitioners that, like ITIL, I've stopped using it, but people should at least be aware of what it meant. I foresee this being one of those things where someone goes Oh my god I know how to program and I know Linux I'M SO DEVOPS RIGHT NOW ...while having no understanding of the underlying principles or methodologies. It's very coincidental that this topic came up here because my business unit had a meeting today where someone pitched a DevOps collaboration event. Whether or not it was a legitimate form of DevOps remains to be seen. I didn't pay much attention. It would be nice to see a true DevOps approach sprout at my workplace though, so next time I encounter a developer going "LALALALALA gently caress YOU HAVE MORE DOWNTIME" I can forward all my angry client emails and phone calls to them. Cenodoxus fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Feb 21, 2014 |
# ? Feb 21, 2014 00:30 |
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EAT THE EGGS RICOLA posted:Is this in Windows? If so they really should be doing this with Powershell's Desired State Configuration Yes, that is . We're using Windows Server 2008R2/2012R2. We're using Chef to do stuff that Group Policy should be doing. Not Powershell DCM, actual Group Policy settings that exist in the base Group Policy editor. Yes, I agree Powershell DCM should be used.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 00:33 |
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Cenodoxus posted:It would be nice to see a true DevOps approach sprout at my workplace though, so next time I encounter a developer going "LALALALALA gently caress YOU HAVE MORE DOWNTIME" I can forward all my angry client emails and phone calls to them. I think its a core component of a developer role and in my office all developers are on call for their work. If you don't you're just a programmer. There's an interesting venn diagram of developer, devops, and site reliability engineer though.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 01:04 |
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Cenodoxus posted:It would be nice to see a true DevOps approach sprout at my workplace though, so next time I encounter a developer going "LALALALALA gently caress YOU HAVE MORE DOWNTIME" I can forward all my angry client emails and phone calls to them. Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Feb 21, 2014 |
# ? Feb 21, 2014 05:22 |
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I work for a small UK company, ~30 computers. We use a lot of Office VBA, and our practice has been to purchase new computers with OEM Windows and Office 20xx Home and Business installed. That's all we need. Last year a couple of Office updates caused our VBA macros to slow down massively (on the order of from <1s to 18s to run). We declined these updates in WSUS and all was well again. Considering VBA is all but dead I have no idea how or what to migrate our workflow to when it stops being supported. Dell then told us they're only shipping Office 2013. So I downloaded a copy from TechNet to test it, all seems well. The corresponding 'slow' updates for Office 2013 were declined. Yet when we receive the computers we get the same rubbish performance. Turns out the OEM copies come installed in a virtual-app Click-to-Run installation, which updates itself via delta against a master image over the internet, and cannot use WSUS. Simple: uninstall Office and reinstall with a normal MSI installer. Except the only version of Office that has the MSI installer now is Professional Plus, and that won't take H&B keys. Because of course, a business buying a version called Home and Business will have no need for a WSUS server. Fine. We'll just have to use Professional Plus at greater cost for no benefit to us except it doing what we want. This is only available through volume licensing. I contacted our Dell and Misco account managers enquiring about VL and they basically blanked us. Can someone clue me in on how you get set up with VL?
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 12:19 |
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Speak to Softcat. For some reason everyone else I tried to deal with for licensing was unhelpful.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 12:42 |
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Bob Morales posted:I want to find the person at my company who numbered our internal network with 128.1.x.x I had a break/fix customer whose LAN segment was 200.200.200.0/24. Cue the" Guinness in bottles" guys... BRILLIANT! Got an email from a customer at 10:45 last night with a laundry list of firewall changes to be made. Then, got one at 6:30 AM asking why it wasn't done yet. Hmm... Maybe I'll bill them an extra 15 minutes today to explain, even engineers sleep.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 15:47 |
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You may remember me as the person who was moaning about the shittiness that is Amazon. Amazon, I forgive you. I want to kiss your feet. eBay however can go and royally gently caress itself. eBay is the only organisation that I know of that wants people to pay £45 to get two support tickets. Not even three. Two. What the gently caress is the deal there, eh?
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 16:55 |
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Westie posted:eBay however can go and royally gently caress itself. eBay is the only organisation that I know of that wants people to pay £45 to get two support tickets. Not even three. Two. They've seen Apple's pricing. That said, Apple actually refund you if you can prove it's their fuckup.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 17:40 |
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Bob Morales posted:I want to find the person at my company who numbered our internal network with 128.1.x.x Do I work with you? My internal network is 128.x.x.x and has been that way for more than a decade. We're slowly swapping all our branches to 192.168.x.x Here's an annoyance: Legacy code. We used to have an IT manager who was a company founder... His mantra was "Cheaper is Better" he was also insane. One of my first tasks here was to swap a branch with about 70 people from ubuntu desktops to windows. When the guy retired he never bothered to pass along the configuration of various important things and he locked those things down so hard it was simpler to wipe them and re-install windows (most of them actually came with windows initially) but I digress. He was also some kind of demented computer genius though he almost never commented his code, except for things like "/This bit isn't needed anymore." His stuff generally works, but you're hosed if you need to change anything. We'd had a regulatory change and needed to add some lines to the rear end covering on our invoices, so they went below the box on the template for the CYA section. It stayed that way for three years because no one could figure out what the hell. I had what I initially thought was a simple task: I had to update the template that was used to generate our nightly invoice mailings from a giant 200mb text file. Turns out it was way harder than I'd thought because of the way he'd set up the template. It was a Postscript file split in two, a nonstandard postscript file I might add. The way the script worked was it split that file into hundreds of 75 line text files, it grabbed the E-mail, invoice# and such, copied the first part of template to a file, then somehow used xxd to convert the text invoice to postscript data, striped the headers, paste it after the first part of the template, then added the second postscript file, then converted the resulting .ps file into a pdf. It worked, but it was slow and awful and I couldn't find a tool that could edit the postscript template and leave it usable (I learned after that he had typed it by hand) I ended up re-doing it largely from scratch so that instead of inserting stuff into the middle of a postscript file it just turns the text directly into a .ps file with a2ps, then ghostscripted to a pdf, then applied our template as a background. This allowed us to use a pdf as the template which is a lot easier to modify and turned out to be much faster. Unfortunately for me this guy's code is everywhere.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 17:50 |
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ookiimarukochan posted:They've seen Apple's pricing. That said, Apple actually refund you if you can prove it's their fuckup. eBay will refund credits too, if it's their fault. Did I mention credits? If you report an issue via live chat then you're hosed. Bye bye half an hour in credits!
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 18:13 |
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Pissing me off: I ask for a simple definition of one term in the context of a process. I get a 20 page PDF in reply. It does not even provide an answer.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 18:21 |
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MrMoo posted:I'm looking forward to a Google technical project manager interview, the only interesting material in regards to project management I could find was from Microsoft: Are you looking to transition from dev to PM?
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 18:29 |
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I think my current title is "Solutions Architect / Project Manager", I think Googles went a bit Peter Principle and thought I'll be a better TPM than dev. I pretty much do everything from PM, architect, dev, QA, CJ, networking, ops, docs, training, data visualisation, analytics, DB admin, etc. No one else wants this job really.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 18:40 |
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Ynglaur posted:Pissing me off: I ask for a simple definition of one term in the context of a process. I get a 20 page PDF in reply. It does not even provide an answer. Read: they don't know either
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 20:05 |
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Westie posted:Read: they don't know either This is the God's honest truth. The individual in question is quite pleasant, but is in way over his head. He should have taken one look at this project and said "I'm sorry, I'm not the right person for this role." Instead, he's spent the last 6 months trying to define his role in the most narrow way possible.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 20:07 |
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Startups: move fast and break the dev branch and don't tell anyone about it
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 20:17 |
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Ynglaur posted:Pissing me off: I ask for a simple definition of one term in the context of a process. I get a 20 page PDF in reply. It does not even provide an answer. Read: Every TI response ever to anything.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 20:30 |
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evol262 posted:This is exactly why controlled access networks exist. You should be proxying everything through or have joint resources in a DMZ that's tightly controlled. We follow all the guidelines and then some... Fortunately in our 8 am tele con, nobody really played the blame game, big boss was unhappy that this major stumbling block appeard so close to delivery date Middle boss suggested failing to deliver this may not be a breach of contract so big boss chilled out and we are probably going to deliver late. I suspect we will get told it is a breach of contract to deliver late next and will have to panic next week. Fun fun fun
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 22:59 |
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Ok boys, its the big one. This Tuesday will hopefully be one of a couple interview and meetings that will get me promoted from Help Desk up into a Sys Admin role. I'll be the youngest and least experienced admin by 1-3 decades, but my strongest asset is that I'm able to understand concepts quickly and I'm not rooted into the idea of "well that's just how we've always done it". I know when its appropriate to invent a new wheel and when its not.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 23:09 |
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slightpirate posted:Ok boys, its the big one. This Tuesday will hopefully be one of a couple interview and meetings that will get me promoted from Help Desk up into a Sys Admin role. I'll be the youngest and least experienced admin by 1-3 decades, but my strongest asset is that I'm able to understand concepts quickly and I'm not rooted into the idea of "well that's just how we've always done it". I know when its appropriate to invent a new wheel and when its not. Congrats in advance! Just be careful not to be too A lot of us are younger than our peers by decades, but keep one thing in mind: you have to spend six months anywhere before you understand how their processes work. After that, go hog wild inventing new wheels, because you'll understand why the old ones work the way they do. Before that, it's really easy to go in with grand ideas and get totally crushed because there are three million edge cases that you don't know about.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 23:20 |
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slightpirate posted:I'll be the youngest and least experienced admin by 1-3 decades quote:but my strongest asset is that … I'm not rooted into the idea of "well that's just how we've always done it". You're probably completely hosed, just breaking this to you gently now.
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# ? Feb 21, 2014 23:28 |
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# ? May 23, 2024 15:44 |
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evol262 posted:This is exactly why controlled access networks exist. You should be proxying everything through or have joint resources in a DMZ that's tightly controlled. Yeah this at least reads like our devops team, though the google guy we hired changed the name to Engineering & Productivity. They're the intermediary between dev and ops, and look after our build and deploy system, which is a nice little setup. We've also got them looking after our monitoring systems, but the closest they get to on call work is when one of them comes in for an early morning release. The head if the team is probably the smartest person I've ever met, but is also incredibly helpful and friendly, and talks at a million miles an hour. Sadly he's planning to leave eventually, he's going to become a priest.
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# ? Feb 22, 2014 02:41 |