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InterFaced posted:I mean I have a Jita alt but I don't think that counts. CCP's infinitely spammed "Power of two" promotion will never work on me. Right there with ya buddy.  There have been times where I have thought to myself that having a second account would be nice for salvaging/looting/trading/etc. but I don't want to be on the hook for 1.2 billion a month to keep them both subbed. I just fail to see how a second account would add that much value unless it were a very highly skilled character from the get-go.
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Feb 21, 2014 19:49
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If a jita alt is worth more than 20m/day to you it's worth keeping one.
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Feb 21, 2014 20:03
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Ynglaur posted:Just like the Wrecking Ball, there are obvious counters to FYF. You just need to think about it some more. Seems like if you got a warpin on a celestis then a bunch of taloses would do the job nicely. Edited in a quote for clarity. Thurin fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 20:03
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Thurin posted:Seems like if you got a warpin on a celestis then a bunch of taloses would do the job nicely. That would require them to field more than one ship type.  BEEP BOOP NOT ALLOWED
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Feb 21, 2014 20:19
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Not to mention said ship type isn't a capital or supercapital. I mean, a Thorax isn't even a T2 or T3. 
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Feb 21, 2014 20:20
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MickeyFinn posted:He isn't saying the CFC should "win all the time," that is hardly the case now anyhow (see the Fountain CSAAs for a recent example). He is saying that the CFC is making the best possible use of the resources it has to win fights. Fair enough MickeyFinn posted:This is a lot of words to say that if you ignore the hard counter to large fleets (i.e. bringing your own large fleet) then there are few options to counter large fleets. There are game mechanics available right now to anyone who wants to use them, that can directly counter the CFC, that N3/PL/whoever refuse to use them does not make them any less real. They can engage in superior tactics, like bombing fleets on the way to fights, or they can recruit and get more ships in fleet. The ultimate weakness of the wrecking ball is that it relied on an temporary imbalance in super cap numbers between the sides. Which brings me to my original point. "There are game mechanics available right now to anyone who wants to use them" was what people were bitching about N3/PL saying when dealing with Wrecking Ball, and most recently about Interceptors. I suppose its just EVE people not thinking things through then, unless you mean that it differently than the way I'm reading it. MickeyFinn posted:All of this "high sp characters should keep ahead of low sp players" gamesmanship is short sighted and relies on an ever increasing skill ceiling with more and more powerful ships, otherwise the numbers game will always catch up to smaller groups. In the long run, a single shard game without a fight participant limit will always end up going to numbers eventually. So we are back to what I said originally, if you want to maintain a smaller group of players, sooner or later you will need to either reduce your space holding (or drop sov entirely) or you will need to get the sov mechanics changed. All of the discussions about what should win fights are a side show. I don't think just because you have a high SP character you should dunk on lower SP characters no matter what the ratio is, that's what I personally dislike about WoW or similar games. I was more so talking about the ability to have a fighting chance if you have fewer people, which you addressed well with the "other tactics" that could be employed. However, if CFC wanted to attack RANE, it'd take minimal effort due to the disparity in size and that, in some ways, seems rather silly. It lends itself to stuff like B0TLRD being created out of mutual protection and the supposed "blue donut" to become less a figment of Ripard Teg's imagination and more a reality. Personally I don't want Ripard to ever be right about anything. A change to sov mechanics would work and it was previously discussed that it appears CCP want a much more cramped nullsec than it currently is. Glory of Arioch posted:I love it when people start throwing around numbers like "FIFTY FIVE THOUSAND PILOTS" or "TWENTY-TWO THOUSAND PILOTS", like the total number of characters in one alliance is actually meaningful. Who the hell doesn't have more than one character in this game? I have 11 dudes that count towards one of those hyperbolic numbers myself, and I'm only one person. You'll note I didn't say those were fielded, but given the size and resources comparatively N3/PL made due with what they had. That was the point I was trying to make. Mekchu fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 20:31
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Ynglaur posted:Not to mention said ship type isn't a capital or supercapital. I mean, a It's also way too inexpensive to be fielded. We can't call it ELITE PVP unless the ship is at least 100m for the hull. 
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Feb 21, 2014 20:32
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Thurin posted:Seems like if you got a warpin on a celestis then a bunch of Titans are the elite PvP man's answer for everything.
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Feb 21, 2014 20:34
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Ice Fist posted:Titans are the elite PvP man's answer for everything. I hear that went real well for PL.
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Feb 21, 2014 20:37
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koreban posted:I hear that went real well for PL. It did, we have been havng 6v6 Titan battles all week. that's a Titanfall joke
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Feb 21, 2014 20:47
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Uba Stij posted:I do agree "superior tactics" etc. are needed by the smaller group to adapt. From what I can tell that was what Wrecking Ball did and was for. Wrecking ball itself wasn't overly unbalanced but it worked only because there is no counter to massed supercaps but more supercaps, and the massed supercaps were a critical (though out of system) part of the tactic. That's still just "he who has more, wins" except you're required to devote two years of training and ~100b isk minimum to matter. It's tracking titans/AOE titans all over again. Subcaps have counters that are not simply N+1. Bombers, ewar, superior fleet composition, and the like. The problem for N3PL is that they don't have any tactical superiority in subcaps anymore. We give a lovely FC command of the megathron fleets and we can easily get ground into paste. It's not that our fleets can't be countered with fewer numbers, it's that N3PL no longer have the tactical superiority to let them do so. Our fleets can be bombed, can be drag bubbled and sniped with superior fleet compositions, jammed, whatever. It's just that our FCs have gotten good enough that mistakes that allow that to happen rarely occur anymore. You give me a huge fleet and I'll welp it down to the last man against a much smaller N3PL fleet - but Vee and Laz won't.
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Feb 21, 2014 21:13
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Glory of Arioch posted:I love it when people start throwing around numbers like "FIFTY FIVE THOUSAND PILOTS" or "TWENTY-TWO THOUSAND PILOTS", like the total number of characters in one alliance is actually meaningful. Who the hell doesn't have more than one character in this game? I have 11 dudes that count towards one of those hyperbolic numbers myself, and I'm only one person. You need a hobby.
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Feb 21, 2014 21:13
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Uba Stij posted:"There are game mechanics available right now to anyone who wants to use them" was what people were bitching about N3/PL saying when dealing with Wrecking Ball, and most recently about Interceptors. I suppose its just EVE people not thinking things through then, unless you mean that it differently than the way I'm reading it. I think there is a critical difference. A super capital escalation fleet (required to counter the wrecking ball) isn't immediately available, it takes years to get up and running. Recruiting players and changing tactics is available on a, say, few week to few month time scale as high sp players shouldn't need a lot of time to change doctrines and recruiting can almost be turned on at will. When I said "right now" I meant "nearly immediately available" rather than "currently possible through game mechanics," although the latter is certainly a reasonable reading of what I wrote. Edit: God drat it Weasel!  Uba Stij posted:I don't think just because you have a high SP character you should dunk on lower SP characters no matter what the ratio is, that's what I personally dislike about WoW or similar games. I was more so talking about the ability to have a fighting chance if you have fewer people, which you addressed well with the "other tactics" that could be employed. However, if CFC wanted to attack RANE, it'd take minimal effort due to the disparity in size and that, in some ways, seems rather silly. It lends itself to stuff like B0TLRD being created out of mutual protection and the supposed "blue donut" to become less a figment of Ripard Teg's imagination and more a reality. Personally I don't want Ripard to ever be right about anything. A change to sov mechanics would work and it was previously discussed that it appears CCP want a much more cramped nullsec than it currently is. I think the game would be more fun if fights were more dynamic, "what is the 100 man corp going to do to defend their system against the 10k player juggernaut a region away?" Could be such an exciting part of the game, but it isn't because in order to hold sov, the 100 man corp has to show up and go toe-to-toe with the juggernaut at an appointed time. That, to me, is the problem with fleet fights. If the smaller group could defend their small territory by using high player skill, high skill point tactics (whatever that may be in this imaginary sov system) then I don't think anyone would say the mechanics are broken. Right now, a relatively small group of players wants to hold vast amounts of territory using investments they have already made (skill points and big ships) and that appears to me to be both a recipe for stagnation in the game and ultimately futile because eventually the masses will catch up.
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Feb 21, 2014 21:15
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zzyzx posted:You need a hobby. Man, if you think 11 people is "you need a hobby" territory, you have not even scratched the surface of insanity that this game foments. I am baby-league territory with my poo poo. e: also, "11 dudes" is only 4 accountsworth of mans. It's not like you log in and mess with every dude you have -- most of those dudes just sit in one station and light cynos. They don't even train. That's all they exist to do. Gwyneth Palpate fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 21:15
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Christ, one of the best counters to FYF is literally mentioned in bold print on the informational pamphlet. What more do you people want? e: wait, it isn't. I guess I'm thinking of a parody, but in any case it's been mentioned in this very thread. Vando fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 21:16
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Uba Stij posted:Fair enough Recruit players without capitals and encourage them to train into cruisers/battlecruisers. If we bring FYF, then kill it. E: need to refresh before posting.
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Feb 21, 2014 21:19
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InterFaced posted:I mean I have a Jita alt but I don't think that counts. CCP's infinitely spammed "Power of two" promotion will never work on me. As a poor, I am right there with you  
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Feb 21, 2014 21:20
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Famethrowa posted:As a poor, I am right there with you I've been playing eve for years and have seen a lot of serious business multi-account dudes burn out. I just want to look at pretty space and watch things blow up, occasionally with fleets of goons. If you're having fun with one account don't give in man. Also I'm a simpleton who has trouble managing hangers full of poo poo and ships and skill training on one guy. The thought of adding a few more is insanity. I know there are tools and stuff to help manage this but then I'd be edging closer and closer to playing spreadsheets in space instead of a very pretty occasionally boring spaceship game. old beast lunatic fucked around with this message at 22:03 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 21:57
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I'm down to one account now, and happily rounding out subcaptial capability. I sold my cap pilot ages ago, back when capswarm was blueball central, and swore I'd never go back.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:04
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zzyzx posted:You need a hobby. He has one. It's Eve Online.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:10
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MickeyFinn posted:All of this "high sp characters should keep ahead of low sp players" gamesmanship is short sighted and relies on an ever increasing skill ceiling with more and more powerful ships, otherwise the numbers game will always catch up to smaller groups. In the long run, a single shard game without a fight participant limit will always end up going to numbers eventually. So we are back to what I said originally, if you want to maintain a smaller group of players, sooner or later you will need to either reduce your space holding (or drop sov entirely) or you will need to get the sov mechanics changed. All of the discussions about what should win fights are a side show. This is the thing that absolutely nobody in the 'high isk/sp advantage' camp seems to fully understand. Small groups will always lose their advantage against numbers in the long run, provided the larger groups remain cohesive. CCP would have to completely ruin the game for significantly numerically-mismatched sov-warfare engagements to remain possible for more than a few months. Supercaps and carriers together allowed this for a while, but as we saw with B-R, the 'low-SP blobs' are catching up and are now able to field as many or more of these. Anyone who thinks this power shift is going to slow down or reverse and start favoring the smaller groups again is in complete denial. The caveat above about cohesion is very important, and is why the HBC is not currently controlling the southern half of the map. You can whine about numbers all you want, but it isn't actually about mass recruitment, it's about properly managing and growing what you have and forging it into something effective.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:30
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Glory of Arioch posted:
Do what? You can buy cyno bombers and blueprint/build alts for fairly cheap, and multi-box pretty well with 4 accounts. I have flown Oneiros, Vindicator, Falcon, and cloaky eyes at the same time. There are people who can run more than that! The micro is weak in you young padawan! The most I have done in nullsec is Scimi, Maelstrom, and cyno bomber (yes I actually dropped in a titan on PL slowcats while doing this). Incursus fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 22:32
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Vando posted:Christ, one of the best counters to FYF is literally mentioned in bold print on the informational pamphlet. What more do you people want? You were probably thinking of Harpy Fleet infographic. 
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Feb 21, 2014 22:34
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Incursus posted:...and multi-box pretty well with 4 accounts. Pretty sure he meant you wouldn't play all 11 characters at once. 4 is manageable (I was doing it just the other night) but more than that gets really tough unless the extras are sitting in POS shields or stations. I don't count isboxing 8 similar characters. Thats driving one after some setup.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:47
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Ynglaur posted:While just about everyone agrees that current sov mechanics suck, your argument boils down to "I don't want other people to be able to break my things. In fact, I don't want to have to deal with other people at all." This has nothing to do with what mechanic I was talking about. What I was referring to is how any member with roles in any corporation within an alliance can offline an sbu. And since like goons test had paid alt corps since pos roles are horrible a goon spy made a PAC and could offline them without us having any way of knowing who. So I have literally no idea what you were going for. FoF fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 22:47
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Incursus posted:Do what? You can buy cyno bombers and blueprint/build alts for fairly cheap, and multi-box pretty well with 4 accounts. I've multiboxed I think a maximum of six characters at once. Without ISBoxer.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:53
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Glory of Arioch posted:I've multiboxed I think a maximum of six characters at once. Without ISBoxer. How many were cyno alts?
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Feb 21, 2014 23:13
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evilweasel posted:How many were cyno alts? One, a rapier.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:15
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Ok since we're having the numbers vs power debate and FoF pulled the hyperbole card by escalating to dumb questions about whether 2 frigates should win vs 1 titan, I thought I'd bring it back to the reality of what kind of numbers we are talking about when complaining about "OP". In the Wrecking Ball doctrine, which is the most extreme example of unsupported caps versus subcaps, each Healer Aeon can repair at minimum 5000 ehp per second on a tank Archon. That is a worst-case scenario where the archon pilot has IV skills and only T2 tank gear. If the Archon has carrier V and a modest 250m in deadspace hardeners, that can easily grow to 6000 ehp/s. But we'll be conservative with the 5k number. So let's say the CFC decides to suicide a bunch of Baltec Megas into the Wrecking Ball, at close range with CN antimatter. They do 500 dps each, which is easily matched by the Archons using Gardes. So we'll say that 1 Archon = 1 Megathron, and each Aeon negates 10 Megas via rep power. x Archons + y Aeons > x + 10y Battleships, so the WB side can fight outnumbered 11:1 and win with no losses. This envelope math is why the CFC's best idea for a while was to bore the other side to death. edit: tl,dr FoF is dumb. Klyith fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 23:15
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Glory of Arioch posted:I've multiboxed I think a maximum of six characters at once. Without ISBoxer. Suddenly your 'tar seems more appropriate.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:21
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Klyith posted:Ok since we're having the numbers vs power debate and FoF pulled the hyperbole card by escalating to dumb questions about whether 2 frigates should win vs 1 titan, I thought I'd bring it back to the reality of what kind of numbers we are talking about when complaining about "OP". To be fair to FoF, I also used the same comparison when discussing how there's not ~true balance to the force~ in the current scheme of things. Granted I'm not as adamant, but I'd like it to be as easy for smaller guys to deal with larger groups as it is for the larger groups to "just throw bodies" at the smaller guy. Though the argument for the whole "making and managing allies" is a valid one that solves it. PL are pretty much "we're happy doing our own thing" which is fine, but it's also proven to be an issue when dealing with this subject.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:48
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Klyith posted:
His character is old, therefore if he spends enough isk, he deserves to win no matter what. He has never understood the linear gain in cost, logarithmic increase in power that CCP has repeatedly talked about.
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Feb 22, 2014 00:24
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Klyith posted:
I thought that was made clear back during the Fountain War? He even got banned, iirc. And his redtext avatar wiped out.
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Feb 22, 2014 00:27
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Uba Stij posted:To be fair to FoF, I also used the same comparison when discussing how there's not ~true balance to the force~ in the current scheme of things. Granted I'm not as adamant, but I'd like it to be as easy for smaller guys to deal with larger groups as it is for the larger groups to "just throw bodies" at the smaller guy. *Metagame (possible now) *Sovereignty (not possible) *Harassment (currently marginal) In the great Sov Rebalance debate I generally like the category of ideas in the "use it or lose it" side, where mil + industry indexes have more impact on how strong a sov claim is (or how expensive your sov bill is). Mechanics along that line would give a small, dedicated group some tools to weaken a larger, uninterested opponent. But even then it would be more of a tool for gaining a negotiated settlement than outright victory. quote:Though the argument for the whole "making and managing allies" is a valid one that solves it. PL are pretty much "we're happy doing our own thing" which is fine, but it's also proven to be an issue when dealing with this subject. PerrineClostermann posted:I thought that was made clear back during the Fountain War? He even got banned, iirc. And his redtext avatar wiped out.
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Feb 22, 2014 00:46
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mikey posted:CCP would have to completely ruin the game for significantly numerically-mismatched sov-warfare engagements to remain possible for more than a few months. In addition to this being correct, there's another design philosophy aspect of this I'd like to point out. Think about how hard it is to win a 1v2 brawl (not a skirmish engagement mind, but a fight where everyone involved is fully committed). It can be done, but it takes either massive supremacy of isk, execution, and SP, or the application of a hard counter. And this is a good thing; it makes 1v2 victories rare and exciting, encourages social play and escalation, and rewards knowledge of those few counters that are applicable here. By the time you get up to 1v3 or 1v4 the odds are even more dramatic unless you're talking about an Armageddon versus a bunch of t1 frigates or something. There's no reason that logic should fall apart at larger scales; in fact it's reasonable to expect fewer exceptions, since larger fleets are usually diverse and redundant and thus harder to shut down completely. Anyone who expects force multiplication to work at a scale where a 250-man fleet can fight on even terms with a 1000-man fleet, or a 1k-member alliance hold sov against a 10k-member alliance, isn't just asking for the impractical: they want to play a completely different game than everyone else. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 00:46
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Uba Stij posted:To be fair to FoF, I also used the same comparison when discussing how there's not ~true balance to the force~ in the current scheme of things. Granted I'm not as adamant, but I'd like it to be as easy for smaller guys to deal with larger groups as it is for the larger groups to "just throw bodies" at the smaller guy. Though the argument for the whole "making and managing allies" is a valid one that solves it. PL are pretty much "we're happy doing our own thing" which is fine, but it's also proven to be an issue when dealing with this subject. There really is no solution to the numbers problem (within the context of sov warfare) that will not eventually come back to haunt the smaller group in the end. It's not a problem specific to the current or past metagame, but to any possible game design that emphasizes the outcome of a single fight. The 'fix' doesn't involve creating more powerful ships or fleet compositions, but rather reducing power projection while implementing some kind of simultaneous distributed goal system in sov mechanics. This still won't favor a smaller group, but it could at least disincentivize large entities from holding massive swaths of indefensible space. Whether or not you admire the proficiency in diplomacy, organization, and logistics required to hold an entity like the CFC together, the mega-coalition paradigm is clearly not great for the game in the long run. I don't think a lot of people would disagree with this, but plenty of people seem to mistakenly believe that the solution lies in focusing on their temporary monetary and skillpoint advantages.
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Feb 22, 2014 00:53
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I know of a few people who have admitted to joining the CFC as spies, and then just quietly hung around because they found it so much better than the people they were spying for. Part of that can be outside community bonds, but I think a lot of it just comes down to the CFC being really, really good at including people and supporting them while they find their own way within the game. I know I wouldn't be playing if GoonWaffe wasn't so great at making me feel wanted and useful, and I have a hard time comprehending how any corporation can remain solvent without that kind of new player support.
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Feb 22, 2014 01:13
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Klyith posted:I think PL's real problem is they want to have their cake and eat it too. They don't want allies because they like having the maximum opportunity to get in fights, but they also want to win all the time. That attitude was fine when they were being carefree nomads who dunked on random sov-havers all over eve, but the only way to keep it in their current state is pushing distorted game mechanics. Which is why I'm pretty damned happy to be in Waffles. It's all the good parts of the game I enjoy minus the poo poo parts. No sov grinding is great. Magic Rabbit Hat posted:I know of a few people who have admitted to joining the CFC as spies, and then just quietly hung around because they found it so much better than the people they were spying for. Part of that can be outside community bonds, but I think a lot of it just comes down to the CFC being really, really good at including people and supporting them while they find their own way within the game. I know I wouldn't be playing if GoonWaffe wasn't so great at making me feel wanted and useful, and I have a hard time comprehending how any corporation can remain solvent without that kind of new player support. PL/Waffles are pretty close knit community wise. In Waffles we'll get guys who try to act big and stuff and don't mesh well, they eventually either leave themselves or are cut. Of all the alliances in EVE, GSF and PL are the only ones who get the whole "keep the community together" aspect of managing things.
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Feb 22, 2014 01:15
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For someone completely new to the game with barely 500k SP, what would be the best skill to raise to V first? I understand it's probably not something that should be done right away, but what V-level skill would give the best benefit? Drones? Cap management? CPU?
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Feb 22, 2014 01:15
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Otacon posted:For someone completely new to the game with barely 500k SP, what would be the best skill to raise to V first? I understand it's probably not something that should be done right away, but what V-level skill would give the best benefit? Drones? Cap management? CPU? Never not train Cyno V. It's an amazing skill to have and helps out in a lot of ways. That said also get Frig V on all racials and you can pretty much fly in any bomber, which is also worth training towards. Anchoring V is good if you want to be able to drop bubbles, which I think grants T2 Large though I might be wrong on that one. There's no single skill to train to V first, there are a fair number that are really useful.
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Feb 22, 2014 01:18
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