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Noctis Horrendae posted:If 40k didn't have cool miniatures and fluff we wouldn't play it, you're lying if you say otherwise. The game is expensive and unbalanced - literally nobody would play 40k if it had bad lore. The lore and the miniatures are what makes 40k objectively great. No, no, that wasn't what I meant at all. I love the lore, I love how ridiculously  everything is, and it is hilarious.PeterWeller posted:The mini rulebook should be available on its own as well. Yeah I think this is what I really meant, but I had to make an Isaac Newton reference to seem clever. You know what I wish they still included? Cardboard terrain in the intro sets. And I wish they sold cardboard terrain just, like, in general. If they made printed cardboard (like what Fantasy Flight Games tokens are made from) versions of their ruined buildings, they could reduce their manufacturing costs, increase the mark-up, reduce the price (vs. the Manufactorum or Basilica Administratum, say), and sell a LOT more terrain.
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Feb 21, 2014 21:59
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Are the FW army lists totally legit to use in WH40k games? Resident Shitlord can't stamp his feet at me?
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Feb 21, 2014 22:02
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I know the thread moves fast, but drat! Does anyone have a thought on this? krushgroove posted:So the 'consolidate into assault' question came up twice in last night's game, and I asked the other players present what they thought about it.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:06
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:Are the FW army lists totally legit to use in WH40k games? Resident Shitlord can't stamp his feet at me? GW has stated that everything FW other than 30k can be used in 40k without any problems. If he stamps your feet at you then you can Google the official word on it and show it to him.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:08
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Uh, they've been selling a pimped out version of the mini rulebook for ages now.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:09
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GW needs to set up four levels of play, each level with their own rules and points and general model count. Level 1) Something like Mordheim. Small 10-15 man games with in-depth rules for each model and very campaign oriented. Like Mordheim, you have hero units and trash units. Level 2) Squad based, so arround 25 to 50 models. 40k but focused around the current 400-750 point level. Again, completely separate rules and points than normal 40k. This would be almost like 40k in 40 minutes but much more flushed out. Level 3) Normal 40k with all expansions and other such BS. So you can play SHs & GCs but they have stupid point values because we are suppose to be killing them with normal 40k stuff. Level 4) Apoc but pointed out as GC & SHs are the core units. It's basically Level 1 but with super units. You still have your normal 40k units but they have new points prices, cheaper, and come prepackaged with very little customization. A Tac squad might always come in 10 man units with a SGT and you just pick the special weapon. A termagant unit would always be 30 gaunts and you just pick flesh borers or devourers. There could also be a campaign mode and basically be Super 40k Mordheim. The focus would be on customization so if you bought a Warhound Titan, you might have 10 different upgrades to it and then gain more throughout the campaign. Each level has different model counts so you can start out at one and slowly move to the next one. That way the barrier to entry isn’t terrible. Also, GW could put out boxed sets for level 2 and they would also work for level 3. Two Feet From Bread fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 22:11
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I would play a real skirmish level game in the 40K universe in a hot second if it had decent rules and actual support. Bonus if I could use existing models but even if I couldn't and they revived Inquisitor-scale I'd still play, assuming again the rules didn't suck and I didn't think they'd kill it in a year.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:15
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Lungboy posted:Uh, they've been selling a pimped out version of the mini rulebook for ages now. Yeah and it's still way too expensive for my taste so I just borrow the mini one that the others at the club have whenever we game or the giant one we have as a general copy.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:20
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We're starting to play the unofficial kill team rules at my club for exactly this reason.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:24
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:Are the FW army lists totally legit to use in WH40k games? Resident Shitlord can't stamp his feet at me? Absolutely, and if he gives you any poo poo grab the copy of Imperial Armour that has the unit in it, and show him this.  FAKE EDIT: also don't play with shitlords
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Feb 21, 2014 22:25
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Lungboy posted:If CSM can use that new Dreadclaw it might persuade me to buy a few. Good news! Two Feet From Bread posted:GW needs to set up four levels of play, each level with their own rules and points and general model count. They have no interest in these levels because you don't buy enough models for them.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:25
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krushgroove posted:I know the thread moves fast, but drat! Does anyone have a thought on this? Consolidating into combat is what made assault OP as gently caress 3rd and 4th. It's why the chaos book can't have nice things.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:32
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TheChirurgeon posted:Good news! Plenty of other companies have proved you can make money on smaller-scale games. GW not wanting to invest in those is just shortsighted greed, not business sense.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:37
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JoshTheStampede posted:Plenty of other companies have proved you can make money on smaller-scale games. GW not wanting to invest in those is just shortsighted greed, not business sense. But if they focused on terrain they would sell more product for Mordheim and Necromunda.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:44
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JoshTheStampede posted:Plenty of other companies have proved you can make money on smaller-scale games. GW not wanting to invest in those is just shortsighted greed, not business sense. But they did invest in those. Heavily. And guess what? People played 40k and Fantasy and the warband games went into a spiral of 'no-ones buying them, so they get no new stuff, so no-one buys anything, so they dont get anything new,' and then they died and went away. If you talk to people who worked for GW at the time, the most popular specialist game (Necromunda, which made up about 70% of Specialst game sales) still only had a 1 in 20 sales ratio to 40k. A bit closer to fantasy but still, you can clearly see where the market was going. Small skirmish style games have had a bit of a resurgence at the moment, so yes GW could make a profitable one if they wanted to. However, it would never be as profitable as their current lines are, and would indeed lead to a detriment of those sales as resources are diverted to design, support and promote this game. TL;DR: the amount of sales generated by a 'new' skirmish based system would not make up for the loss in other areas, even if it made a profit.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:55
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Naramyth posted:Consolidating into combat is what made assault OP as gently caress 3rd and 4th. Yeah, I've talked to the other guys in my group and so far they all agree that anything loyalists have, Chaos should have also. After all, (IIRC) there are chapters and companies that reject the Emperor and just leave without necessarily following the Chaos gods, so there are traitor legions out there with all the latest stuff, right? I don't know what the 3rd and 4th edition rules about consolidating into combat were, though, which is why I'm asking about the house rules.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:55
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Hang on, I thought getting a mini rulebook was a thing of the past? If memory serves it was absent from the Battle For Macragge set. Then, Assault On Black Reach came out which had a mini-rulebook, detailed models and more valuable models than ever before at the absurdly low price of $50 to $85. I bought the Dark Vengeance Limited Edition set because I'm a hopeless grog and wanted to help out a local business (it was sold at a minor discount, anyway, meaning it was the same price as the regular set). Is it only the Limited Edition set that has the mini rulebook? I remember thinking the Vengeance set did not have such a thing then felt like a dummy for buying the giant hardcover rulebook instead of just getting the starter set. Anyway, each edition just buy the starter set. The pretty pictures are soon forgotten, all I really want is the core rules and a bunch of great miniatures for "free" at the same price as a giant, heavy book and no minis.
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Feb 21, 2014 22:59
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Small skirmish games might not bring GW back to normal levels but it might stop GW from falling even more. At this point in the game it's all about not bleeding to death before you starve to death.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:05
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krushgroove posted:Yeah, I've talked to the other guys in my group and so far they all agree that anything loyalists have, Chaos should have also. After all, (IIRC) there are chapters and companies that reject the Emperor and just leave without necessarily following the Chaos gods, so there are traitor legions out there with all the latest stuff, right? I've put little to no thought about how abusive it could be, but I'd entertain the thought of allowing it with the following conditions: Unit being assaulted into would get to take overwatch shots Assaulting unit is reduced to initiative 1 Assaulting unit is at reduced weapon skill (possibly WS1, but I can't recall the table, such that you need 6s to hit in all cases. Assaulting unit does not benefit from additional attacks, furious charge, hammer of wrath or whatever special rules meant to benefit assaults Basically you're taking shooting cover and pinning an opponent into place for a turn, you should be at a disadvantage for doing it.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:06
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Post 9-11 User posted:Is it only the Limited Edition set that has the mini rulebook? As far as I am aware the normal edition of the starter set comes with a mini-rulebook as well.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:07
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Regular DV has the rule book, for sure. It comes with a couple of quick-start pamphlets that have the stat lines for the units in the box and the hit/wound rules and basic movement poo poo, but there's a paperback rulebook in there too, with the entire 40k ruleset. EDIT: Badly beaten on this post.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:08
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krushgroove posted:I don't know what the 3rd and 4th edition rules about consolidating into combat were, though, which is why I'm asking about the house rules. With your consolidation move, you could move base-to-base with another group of models you weren't engaged with. You could have a single model get into someone's backfield and rampage through their entire line. No overwatch, no shooting phase spent in the open, one guy could sweep a unit and jump into a combat with another one (provided he got the roll he needed on a d6).
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Feb 21, 2014 23:08
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serious gaylord posted:Small skirmish style games have had a bit of a resurgence at the moment, so yes GW could make a profitable one if they wanted to. However, it would never be as profitable as their current lines are, and would indeed lead to a detriment of those sales as resources are diverted to design, support and promote this game. Well their current games are experiencing a pretty sizable drop in profitability lately, which is from a large number of factors, I know, but one of those is that it costs an order of magnitude more money to start playing 40k as it does to play a skirmish game. I'm honestly surprised that GW hasn't looked at their falling profits, the economy, and the success of smaller games and rushed to put out Necromunda 2.0 or Inquisitor Redux some similar character-driven, small model-count game. In other words, people are ALREADY choosing to play a skirmish game over 40k in many cases. GW could offer those poeple a choice to still play a GW game and get SOME money out of them. And if they ever get the urge to have big tanks and giant bugs, that choice will be the same whether they are coming from Inquisitor 2 or from Bushido.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:11
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Post 9-11 User posted:Hang on, I thought getting a mini rulebook was a thing of the past? If memory serves it was absent from the Battle For Macragge set. Then, Assault On Black Reach came out which had a mini-rulebook, detailed models and more valuable models than ever before at the absurdly low price of $50 to $85. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat920001a&prodId=prod1700019a quote:As if these models weren't enough, Dark Vengeance comes with a full-colour 168-page mini Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook; a complete Assembly Guide; a quick-play reference guide; an army roster sheet; dice, templates and a how-to-play booklet including six scenarios to enact on the tabletop. Honestly how hard is it to check their website?
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Feb 21, 2014 23:11
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Squifferific posted:They could hit those price points if they went with Kill Team sized sets. That way you'd be able to play a game with a dozen guys total, mess around and see the different options, and then graduate to the big league game after you get hooked. Yeah, but they shouldn't go with Kill Team sized sets because that doesn't actually relieve the cost of entry; it just delays it a little bit. They need to sell you a real army with which you can play a real game, not some sampler pack with which to play a stripped down version of the game. Two Feet From Bread posted:GW needs to set up four levels of play, each level with their own rules and points and general model count. No, this is a terrible idea that would fracture the player base and lead GW to compete with themselves.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:13
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JoshTheStampede posted:Well their current games are experiencing a pretty sizable drop in profitability lately, which is from a large number of factors, I know, but one of those is that it costs an order of magnitude more money to start playing 40k as it does to play a skirmish game. I'm honestly surprised that GW hasn't looked at their falling profits, the economy, and the success of smaller games and rushed to put out Necromunda 2.0 or Inquisitor Redux some similar character-driven, small model-count game. No this wouldnt work. Its very easy to look at it from the outside and just go 'Well clearly they just need to do what other skirmish game manufacturer is doing and their problems will solve themselves. What in fact would happen is that while yes, they would get more people starting to play Necromunda 2.0, the majority of those players wouldnt kick on into 40k, because why would you spend another $400 to just play bigger games? And instead a lot of current 40k players would stop buying a new army every 6 months and just instead buy 1 gang every 6 months to play Necromunda 2.0. This is exactly what happened with Mordheim and Necromunda before. People bought 1 gang, used it for 6 months, then bought another gang. Thats essentially 2 squads of 40k in a year. They'd canabalise their remaining customer base too much for it to work, and would most likely instead lead to them going down the pan quicker.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:17
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For me and alot of my friends, a new necromunda/skirmish game would mean we'd stop playing 40k altogether. Pretty much only play 30k since FW starting cranking out HH stuff anyway.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:21
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Yeah, while a skirmish version might get a few more of my friends into the hobby, it would lead to those of us who do play getting less stuff and would probably lose sales overall. I wouldn't buy any Necro 2.0 stuff. I would use what I already have. I would possibly stop buying stuff altogether if N2 took 40K's place at our table.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:27
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I think Kill Team was as much concession as we'll get to skirmish games. Still want a low model count game? Buy a half dozen Knights! (Seriously how do you not make money on Necromunda?) Going back to new player intro chat, it's loving insane that Space Hulk was a premium, limited edition thing. It's probably the biggest bridge to board gamers, with the tightest rules they've ever produced, and a deep-end intro to the fluff. Put it in a $40 box at Target, get it on Tabletop, and say hello to new customers. They absolutely could work with Fantasy Flight to meet that price point.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:27
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Icon Of Sin posted:With your consolidation move, you could move base-to-base with another group of models you weren't engaged with. You could have a single model get into someone's backfield and rampage through their entire line. No overwatch, no shooting phase spent in the open, one guy could sweep a unit and jump into a combat with another one (provided he got the roll he needed on a d6). Yikes, I can see why they tamed that action. koreban posted:I've put little to no thought about how abusive it could be, but I'd entertain the thought of allowing it with the following conditions: That...seems a bit overkill, doesn't it? I agree on taking overwatch, but reduced initiative and WS *and* no special assault rules? That removes any benefit of assaulting.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:31
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Considering how deadly Shoothammer is, there may be a place for rolling assaults, but it's hard to reconcile the idea with how bad 3rd Edition was. Not only was it unbalanced in favor of assault armies and heinous against shooting armies, it was also biased toward Marine equivalents. A squad of Marines could roll one flank by themselves, the survivors (two Marines, even!) could roll the rest of an area by consolidating into combat against the helpless Tau/Guardsmen/Guardians/etc. It took me a long time to realize this, but now I know to never buy the rulebook. GW always teases us with a rulebook release before putting out the starter set. I am never buying a hardcover rulebook again, I'll just get the starter kit for the rules and count the minis as a free bonus. Currently, that's about 40% more than the cost of the hardcover rulebook by itself, but I'd rather have a version of the rules that I can carry in my pocket as well as a boatload of nice minis rather than one gigantic grognard tome and no minis. I guess the complaint was that the mini rulebook is not available separately? It would be nice if GW would sell a standalone mini version of the rules for $15, but we know they never will just like they will never have regularly updated Codex rules available on newsprint or as $5 .pdf downloads. Edit: Consolidation used to be an automatic 6" or 3" in 3rd edition, if I recall correctly. You could wreck entire flanks with it easily. I think 4th edition had two options: if you wiped out the enemy you got an automatic 3", if the enemy fled or you over-ran them you could get +D6" and still consolidate into another unit (and, yes, if the enemy fled 2" on a roll and you rolled 6" you could consolidate back into them to resume combat). Funny thing is, there was an experimental ruleset released in White Dwarf that had "Stand Your Ground!" It meant that a unit being charged (or consolidated into?) could pass a leadership in order to shoot the oncoming enemy. It was nothing more than free shooting and a very bad fix to assault supremacy. Yet, it would foretell what was to come in much later editions. Post 9-11 User fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Feb 21, 2014 |
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Feb 21, 2014 23:33
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serious gaylord posted:No this wouldnt work. Its very easy to look at it from the outside and just go 'Well clearly they just need to do what other skirmish game manufacturer is doing and their problems will solve themselves. What about if there were set intro squads that were roughly equivalent in points cost, and balanced so that a meaningful game could be played between intro squads using a subset of the 40k rules? Just a smaller Dark Vengeance, except with squads for the other races as well. Give new players the option to chose from any race and form a basis from which to expand into a full army. No new system, nothing to cannibalize the existing player base, and gives an easier way into the game and hobby.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:39
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I've been giving more thought to my "Canoptek Raiders" Necron variant list:quote:I'm gonna use a destroyer lord. Hes crazy even by destroyer lord standards, but hes going around stealing Canoptic gear to use to I figured that if my guy has to go around and beg, borrow, loot, salvage, and steal everything in his army, it'd be... unreasonable to expect min-maxed troops. So, to stay in the theme, I went to Random.org told it to give me a # between 5 and 10 for my Immortals, and between 5 and 20 for my warriors. I got 9 and 19  code:
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Feb 21, 2014 23:46
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PantsOptional posted:Absolutely, and if he gives you any poo poo grab the copy of Imperial Armour that has the unit in it, and show him this. Just don't be a shitlord yourself. Let folks know up front that you're taking FW units, and show them the rules so they understand what they're up against. Don't throw a tiff if they don't want to play that army. It's their right to play against who they want, and if you get all imperious demanding that they play against you, then you're the shitlord. Short version: Be a decent human being with a modicum of social skills, and I'm sure it'll be fine.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:47
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If you're looking for an 'affordable' way to start WH40k, GW probably does not give a poo poo about you. For every one kid who drops 40 dollars on your pretend starter squad kits, there will be a grognard like me who drops 2 grand in 6 months. Guess which one they care about?
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Feb 21, 2014 23:48
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krushgroove posted:That...seems a bit overkill, doesn't it? I agree on taking overwatch, but reduced initiative and WS *and* no special assault rules? That removes any benefit of assaulting. Not for the first unit you assaulted into and destroyed. As the rules stand now, you get your consolidation move and stand pretty soaking shots for a turn. If you want that delicious shooting cover next turn, you should need to take a couple rolls to get it.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:53
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Moving an assault unit to take Overwatch at BS1 rather than- hypothetically- taking fire from the entire army at full BS is a smart move.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:54
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:For every one kid who drops 40 dollars on your pretend starter squad kits, there will be a grognard like me who drops 2 grand in 6 months. Guess which one they care about? Every whale starts out as that kid.
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Feb 21, 2014 23:59
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GW should just go back to making more games; Blood bowl and Space Hulk are loving excellent and it's a tragedy that they're no longer produced or supported. gently caress the business speculation and the perception that smaller games eat into the bigger ones. GW should primary mandate should be to make a butt tonne of games and then they should have a business strategy to facilitate that. When I was a kid GW would frequently bring out big box games... And y'know what... I played them all and I still continued to play 40k and fantasy.
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Feb 22, 2014 00:05
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Noctis Horrendae posted:GW has stated that everything FW other than 30k can be used in 40k without any problems. If he stamps your feet at you then you can Google the official word on it and show it to him. This is pretty poo poo advice. Any game, whether it be vanilla 40K or Forgeworld, is an agreement between players. You cannot force someone to play your army, even if you pull out some piece of paper and yell "My army is legal". Back in the bad old days I have (and still own) two FW Gryphonne IV Vanquishers. For those unfamiliar with it, it is the Vanquisher with an extremely long barrel. Apparently this was an unfair advantage and a player threatened to snap it off, much to my horror. For the longest time it was rare for me to seee Forgeworld stuff in my area, and there was always a stigma about it. It looks like it's changed, which is really good because it promotes a kind of diversity in armies that I see regularly in Flames of War, my primary wargame. Either way, prancing about shouting "It's legal" is one way to never get a game. If they don't want to play against Forgeworld then they are probably poo poo too.
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