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AJ_Impy posted:
 Do not be so quick to ascribe to faith what was accomplished by political savvy and opportunity. We should follow his example in the things he did for the Empire, but to act as if he was an inherently better Emperor for his zealotry is foolish.
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Feb 22, 2014 14:46
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Old Romans The timidity shown by some of our Senators is astonishing to me. While defending out present borders against outside aggression is important - even paramount - far too many of us seem willing to concern ourselves only with this and not with the need to also figure out our plans for the future; we should start being proactive rather than simply reactive. What shall we do when our borders are as safe as we can make them? What shall we do between truces? The Empire has some of the world's finest diplomats. I propose that we start using them. Fellow Senators, I urge the Empress to dispatch emissaries to Italy, that they might fabricate a claim for the Empire on the County of Rome and the 'Duchy' of Latium. Let this be the first, crucial step towards the goals of both the Old Romans and the Milvians - to restore the Roman Empire to its true borders and to end the Schism by showing Catholicism for the vile heresy that it is. Rather than spending our time, energy, treasure and soldiers fighting over the mountainous interior of Anatolia let us take even wealthier and more prosperous lands. Let us end the Pope.
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Feb 22, 2014 14:47
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 I support the Old Roman position of expanding and reclaiming the empire. But I do not want to do something as outrageously stupid as seizing Rome without the might to stand down the pretenders of western Europe! Instead, I say, we make our move on recovering land lost to Croatia that is rightfully ours. Such as, for example, Croatia. As well, we should focus on targets of opportunity as they arise, prioritizing those areas inside the border of the old empire, such as the coast of near Africa, southern Italy, Anatolia and the Levant. To all of those who say such areas may be difficult to adequately move troops to, you are forgetting the sheer amount of naval forces available for requisition from our merchant republics. Ships in the hundreds! NewMars fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 14:57
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(game mechanics talk rather than Senator talk, thus no icon) While I have not played with the mods Rincewind is using, which might complicate the situation, at least in vanilla CK2 I've actually never had any negative ramifications for claiming Rome as the Byzantines. The Pope moves elsewhere, and can't call a Crusade on me because I'm still a Christian; meanwhile anyone raising an Antipope and pressing his claim attacks the Pope's new home and ignores Rome. The biggest concern is usually North African muslims pressing wars on Rome - but with a strong Sicily right next door they'll rarely do even that much, focusing instead on the Sicilians. My point is, grabbing Rome usually doesn't hurt that badly, it's fairly simple since the Pope doesn't have marriage alliances, and once you've gotten hold of it it's a foot in the door for both the 'restore the Roman Empire' and the 'End the Schism' decisions, both of which are pretty awesome. Again, the Project Balance mods might change the situation a bit, so if anyone with experience using those mods wants to weigh in that would be awesome. But seriously, gently caress the Pope.
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Feb 22, 2014 15:07
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Where does the pope go?
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Feb 22, 2014 15:11
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Lord Windy posted:Where does the pope go? He moves and takes over an existing Catholic theocracy (or even a random Bishopric if there are no theocracies left). If memory serves, upon his death his successor doesn't even get a claim to Rome.
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Feb 22, 2014 15:19
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NewMars posted:
I agree, though keep in mind the fabrication of a claim on Rome itself might take a while - as our diplomats work on that, we need to start expanding where we can without bringing the full might of the Turkish empire on our heads, though I suspect with their troubles with Egypt we might be able to steal some land. I too am concerned about our passivity of late, but until we can guarantee internal stability, and until we've built up our military strength sufficiently, our options for expanding the borders of the Empire are somewhat limited.
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Feb 22, 2014 15:20
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As a relatively new and uneasy senator, I admit to having some uncertainty as to which party best suits my thoughts as to the best service and philosophy of this empire: I'd much like to hear an opinion to help me out before casting my vote. I believe we are the heirs to the Roman Empire of yore, which is certainly a purely Old Roman thought. However, I understand that merely becoming more like our forefathers will not satisfy. Was not the Rome of our ancestors the heir and successor of Troy, resettled in a new land? However, it was not enough to build a new Troy for them, was it? Rome's glory was its own, building on fair Illium, but surpassing it, adapting it, reshaping it. To do otherwise would be to sink, mired in the past, as the world changes around it! When a son inherits land from his father, we all tut our tongues when all he does is hold the land, and keep it all the same as it is. A father in heaven is proud of his son when that son expands his family's holding, and improves their tending. It's not an insult, but an honor! If we are heirs to Old Rome, we must also be new: to do otherwise would make us shameful heirs indeed, even if the battle to reach what Old Rome reached is hard-won in this age. As such, in practical terms, I find my thinking not far from the New Byzantine line... ...Maybe I should just screw all of this and have a drink. There's always room with the Komnenians, right?
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Feb 22, 2014 15:43
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 Can anyone tell us about our great Orthodox allies who helped us while the Turks stole Phrygia and the Tartars marauded Crimea? No? That's because we have no Orthodox allies. In fact, we've fought Orthodox rulers more than we've fought Catholics. Doubly in fact, we haven't fought Catholics at all. The followers of the Bishop of Rome have been more friendly and courteous than our own doukes. Time and again I have expounded upon the need for alliances with the West, improved relationships, and reconciling us to the Bishop of Rome, and here again I say to you all: The best way to secure our future is to create reliable alliances with the Latins, reinforced by reconciling ourselves to the rest of Christendom.
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Feb 22, 2014 15:47
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 We done well so far I so no reason to stop.
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Feb 22, 2014 16:07
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Ofaloaf posted:
We have no current Catholic allies, either. We need to make diplomatic ties with fellow Christians regardless of creed, yes, but we are Rome; we will make alliance with them, but we will not go crawling to them on hands and knees.
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Feb 22, 2014 16:13
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My brother, these August men know these pouts of history. And yet they remain blind, wilfully blind, to the opportunities we propose! Are they men of Christ at all? I suspect many a Turkish coin falls between their fingers in the vaults of the mighty senators!
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Feb 22, 2014 16:14
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Rincewind please let us know if the Iconoclast 
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Feb 22, 2014 16:15
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I agree with the Old Roman and Latin senators, we should pursue diplomacy with other nations, be them Orthodox or Catholic. I also suggest we begin arranging marriages with other nations, for the off-chance the Empire can inherit more crowns.
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Feb 22, 2014 16:26
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Ofaloaf posted:
Let us put this to the senate: an alliance between Byzantium and the catholic nations of the west. A permanent bulwark against the Turk. All senators can agree with us on this proposal!
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Feb 22, 2014 16:30
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The Turks' cycle of revolts have likely drained their spirits of fighting brothers of the crescent moon. Let us further diminish their dreams by retaking Anatolia, then Jerusalem!
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Feb 22, 2014 16:52
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 Bah! For all this traitorous yearning to kneel to the Arch-Heretic, only the Milvians have shown what it takes to rule! Kaisarios was the greatest of the Komnenoi, and his death was surely God taking him to heaven, as earth was no longer worthy of such a man! What do we want? Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Rome. Only a restored, Orthodox, Pentarchy could finally show the heretics of the West the error of their ways! I also note from that map that the Hashimids occupying Georgia seem vulnerable! I demand that Empress liberate our Orthodox brothers! Lord Cyrahzax fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 16:55
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I shall continue to stand with the best faction. New Byzantines
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Feb 22, 2014 17:06
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AdventFalls posted:
Old Romans My fellow Senator, you have the right of it. We ought to also reincorporate the rich lands of Cilicia; many a time have the mountain passes between Armenia Minor and Armenia proper proved a formidable advantage for our legions in wars against the Persians. Jazerus fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 17:14
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:Fellow Senators, I urge the Empress to dispatch emissaries to Italy, that they might fabricate a claim for the Empire on the County of Rome and the 'Duchy' of Latium. Let this be the first, crucial step towards the goals of both the Old Romans and the Milvians - to restore the Roman Empire to its true borders and to end the Schism by showing Catholicism for the vile heresy that it is. The Milvians hereby agree with Senator Binge's proposal. Now that the Bulgars on our doorstep have been permanently dealt with, let us stretch our hand west, that we may return the wayward souls of Europa to the true orthodoxy. Once the Bishop of Rome is in conformity with the Pentarchy, the rest of Europe will follow suit.
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Feb 22, 2014 17:15
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There are some that might call our policies "boring" or "predictable" or "pretty sane." These individuals are slanderers who wish to see our great empire fall under the sway of foreign vices and heretical devils. I stand firmly in my stance that we are not the Romans of old, and that these religious squabbles are rather silly. And as nice as kicking out all the Douxes may be, or instituting a system of high level bureaucrats to reign in the excesses of those Douxes, I believe firmly that staying the course is our wisest path forward. The relatively stability of our empire, and our successes in expansion, is the only proof I need. I am, now and forever, a firm support of the New Byzantines There are certain lessons of the old Romans that might be pertinent to our situation, though. As Julius Caesar himself did, we must conquer the pagan lands on our frontier to bring back territory and treasure for our glorious rise. The Tengri of the steppes are loosely organized and we have already broken the backs of their greatest nation. If we unite them all under our border, we will grow all the stronger for it. Also, something really must be done about those heretics on our borders. While they are certainly better than the followers of Islam, certainly we can manage the affairs of their territory better than some... heretical sophists, squabbling over mere semantics. Let us create a new theme of Cilicia, to stand with us as we prepare to break the backs of the Turks.
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Feb 22, 2014 17:28
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There is one thing that the T.R.A.I.T.O.R.S. faction does get right: We definitely should seek alliances with the Western Schismatics, however our policy should be two-fold: While we should marry into the ruling houses of the Catholics, we should also send the agents of the Black Chamber after those that are in the line of succession, to ensure the return of rightful Roman territories without (much) bloodshed. The territories of Croatia or of Italy would be prime targets for such an undertaking. Thus freed up our troops can be turned eastward, to grab what we can in the inevitable civil Wars of the
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Feb 22, 2014 17:36
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New Byzantines Our top priority should be the reclamation of central Anatolia. That should give us a solid base from which to ensure the safety and stability of the empire. Rogue0071 fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 17:37
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AJ_Impy posted:The Milvians hereby agree with Senator Binge's proposal. Now that the Bulgars on our doorstep have been permanently dealt with, let us stretch our hand west, that we may return the wayward souls of Europa to the true orthodoxy. Once the Bishop of Rome is in conformity with the Pentarchy, the rest of Europe will follow suit. You speak not for all Milvians, brother. As much as it is our holy duty to show our Papist brothers the light of Orthodoxy, it is necessary to reclaim our Anatolian provinces lost to the Turks. Our Great Empress, may her soul rest in peace, did a great many thing to weaken and destabilise the Mohhamedan kingdom. We have been picking up momentum as opportunities arose from this and started reclaiming our lands in the east. But that is a job currently half-done, and unless God himself presents us with a bridge with which to cross to Italy and then march to Rome, completing our eastern reconquests should remain our top priority.
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Feb 22, 2014 17:42
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 Fraternalists I would like to point out that Venetians have trade posts on OUR Empire. This is not acceptable. I wish to petition our Empress for the revokal of a Greek Doux when they, inevitably, rebel and an installation of a merchant republic. And then a war to kick the Venetians out of our Empire. No drat Italians are going to profit from the fruits of our prosperous Empire. Unless we nab some provinces in there and install a republic subservient to our Empire, then that'd be cool.
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Feb 22, 2014 18:21
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sheep-dodger posted:
 While it is every christian's duty to strike against the heathen in any way they can, I can't really say I feel that much rancor towards our brothers in the faith. Of course they're mistaken, but that's all they are. Mistaken. While we will, of course, return our ancestral lands to our enlightened rule, they do not toil under the yoke of the Crescent moon. We should liberate the people most needing of our immediate help. That, and overuse of the Black Chamber will provoke repercussions from our brothers, and I know that I don't want to deal with yet another Regency headache.
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Feb 22, 2014 18:23
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You want to wage war against the Venetians? Please, what have the Venetians ever done against us? So what if they make a few coins in our ports; trade benefits all involved. I can't fathom a time when the Venetians could possibly pose a legitimate threat against us, much less actually harm our Empire in any significant way.
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Feb 22, 2014 18:23
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Byzantium is so close to being restored to it's former greatness.
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Feb 22, 2014 18:39
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sheep-dodger posted:While we should marry into the ruling houses of the Catholics, we should also send the agents of the Black Chamber after those that are in the line of succession (...) Here it is, my friends, the opening into the hearts and minds of New Byzantines. These wretched goons mould their consciences as easily as if they were of Dukljan clay, and are ready to walk right over any morality and righteousness in this good Empire. Their first instinct is deception, their knee-jerk reaction is intrigue and murder. That the support for them is so large is just a signum temporis.
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Feb 22, 2014 18:44
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It's worked so far.
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Feb 22, 2014 18:49
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Rejected Fate posted:
I understand your aim but consider it flawed. We should incorporate Venice into the Empire if at all possible - its power and riches would aid us immeasurably in our more important pursuits.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:13
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Ofaloaf posted:
You will regret this!  And don't forget the Genoans too! Look at them, profiting from the pious journeys made by the faithful. That should be us profiting from the faithful! Flesnolk posted:
This too would be acceptable. So long as it is Byzantine trade in Byzantine territory. Although do we have any Greek merchant republics? Because their title names are pretty cool.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:16
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As other senators are going all over the place with their proposals, I shall bring forward a three-point plan I would apply for the future of the empire: 1) Continue with the improvement of infrastructure and economy before everything else. As much as I hate to completely brush off the proposals of a faction (as every faction has a case to present that could very well be the correct move to make), the Marians' plan to expand expenses on the army is not yet feasible in the way they want to implement it (grand Roman legions). Our administration is not yet on a true Imperial level (the still somewhat decayed theme system springs to mind), and such should be improved before improving the army that would then end up in the hands of rebellious douxes. Once we have improved our infrastructure, however, we can then move on to the army. 2) Retake Anatolia. Anatolian lands are a core of the Empire, and should definitely be retaken before we move our eyes westwards. And of course, the infrastructure of those reconquered regions must be brought up to speed as well. 3) Continue espionage actions against whoever the gently caress is ruling over there in Persia. We need to create an opportunity to strike and fulfill 2), and our espionage cadre has been a vital part of that.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:24
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Komnenians Putting more Kommenians in charge will be great for the empire!
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Feb 22, 2014 19:30
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TheMcD posted:
Add establishing claims of some sort over Rome and Venice, and allying with whomever we can (ideas: Kiev and Hungary), to that list and you have something I can support unreservedly. Also, what we had said before about replacing the douxes.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:30
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Rincewind posted:
That little bit of purple up by the Mordvins is also us, right? When did that happen?
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Feb 22, 2014 19:35
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Historically speaking, wasn't Venice still "du jure" part of the empire at this point?
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Feb 22, 2014 19:42
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Just checked the CKII wiki, and yup, Venice is de jure Byzantine territory unless it's drifted to independence in the 100 or so years since we started the game. So there's no reason not to take it right now.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:44
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EDIT: Hush my mouth, I suppose, the game disagrees, Venice is de jure Byzantine even in 1187 for some reason. EDIT 2: But HIP, the mod we're using, doesn't have Venice as de jure Byzantine even in 1066, so HA! TheMcD fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 19:46
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| # ? Jun 1, 2024 15:23 |
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Ὠ βουλευταί, Ὠ Ῥωμαῖοιˇ συνηγορέω ἔτι Τοῖς Νέοις Βυζαντινοις. βάντες γὰρ ἐπὶ ἀκμᾶς ξυροῦ, ἀλλά τοῖς τῆς χώρᾶς σκήπτροις τε καὶ ταῖς τῆς ἐπιδόσεως προαιρέσεσι σεσώκασι ἡμετέραν ἀρχήν. δόκει τοίνυν μοι, τόν ἄριστον πόρον ἐπικρατήσεως πρός ἥλιον ἀνίσχοντα εἶναι. ἡ μέν τῶν Τυρκων ἀρχή στασιωτικά ἀεί ἐστι. οἱ μέν νομάδες Ταῦροι ἀξιόμαχοι ἡμίν οὐ παρεσχήκασι. ἡ μέν Κηεβη εὔλογα πρός βορέαν ἵστησι. εἰσβολή δ᾽ εἰς τήν Ἰταλίαν ἀναγκάζει ἡμᾶς ναύτας γίγνεσθαι τοίας πολυχρονίαν οὔκ ἠμέν. καὶ δὴ καί, ὁ προσχωροτατος ἐστί ἡ κρατίστη τῶν χώρωνˇ Σικελία. ἄρα στέργωμεν προσβάλλοντες ἀσθενέσι σκοποῖς, μέχρι τόσοι ὄντες ἔξεστι μηκέτι ὁστισοῦν πρός ἡμᾶς μάχεσθαι. ἔστω γε παράδειγμα ἐκείνη ἀρήτη ἐπαινοῦσα ταῖς παλαιαῖς ποιηταῖςˇ σωφροσύνη. ὁ Εὐριπίδης εἷπε ὥςˇ φεῦ φεῦ, τὸ σῶφρον ὡς ἁπανταχοῦ καλὸν καὶ δόξαν ἐσθλὴν ἐν βροτοῖς καρπίζεται. O Senators, O Romans, I continue to make my stand with the New Byzantines. We walked on a razor's edge, but by both their stewardship and their programmes of progress, they have sustained the might of the empire. Furthermore, I believe our best avenue for conquest yet remains toward the rising sun. The Turkish empire is in a perpetual state of strife. The nomadic peoples of the Crimea have shown themselves no match for us in battle. Kiev stands as a natural ally where the North Wind blows. Yet an invasion of Italy requires that we become seafarers in a way that we have not been for many a century. Moreover, the closest to us in the south of Italy is also the strongest of its nations: Sicily. Let us be content to strike at soft targets until we are so mighty that none can fight us. Let our model be that virtue praised by the ancient writers: prudence. Euripides said it thus: Ah! Ah! Prudence is a fine thing everywhere and noble is its reputation among mortals. Sleep of Bronze fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 19:52
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