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Night Blade posted:Well, does the Red Gyarados have competitive stats? I honestly don't know, I had no idea what IVs were back then.
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Feb 22, 2014 18:49
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edit=/quote
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Feb 22, 2014 18:50
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Main Paineframe posted:Only B2W2 can receive the Mons from Dream Radar - BW doesn't have the 3DS features that its sequel did. Not much chance of finding a cheap copy, but it's worth it - the postgame content is among the best in the series. While this is true (the PWT was amazing for one thing) - after playing X and Y you might find it hard to play any of the ds games. Just talking for myself but playing B(2)/W(2) even to just arrange the boxes for transfer was bad.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:14
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It's true. I was a fan of soul silver, and wanted to transfer my lugia. However, I skipped 5th gen and went straight to Y. Having to go back and rush through pokemon white just to transfer my stuff was the absolute worst. Unova sucks, and so did the UI.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:31
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Not nearly as hard as it would be to go back and play gen 4, where things were so much slower and TMs weren't infinite. Switching back and forth between XY and B2W2 for transfer is jarring as hell (not to mention you're gonna be irritated because of how AWFUL the transfer process is) but once you get immersed into B2W2 again I bet it's alright. I still think B2W2 is a better game in a few ways (and PWT is more fun than Maison). I'd never breed a Pokemon for IVs in gen 5 ever again after they made it so much easier in XY, though, but I sure miss the Move Tutor.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:33
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I swear, if I can't teach my sylveon hyper voice in pokemon Z I am going to throw an absolute fit.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:36
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Diet Poison posted:Not nearly as hard as it would be to go back and play gen 4, where things were so much slower and TMs weren't infinite. Switching back and forth between XY and B2W2 for transfer is jarring as hell (not to mention you're gonna be irritated because of how AWFUL the transfer process is) but once you get immersed into B2W2 again I bet it's alright. I still think B2W2 is a better game in a few ways (and PWT is more fun than Maison). I'd never breed a Pokemon for IVs in gen 5 ever again after they made it so much easier in XY, though, but I sure miss the Move Tutor. I also miss being able to just buy exp and EVs at Join Avenue, to take some of the grind out of things every now and then. I'm working through the Kalos dex for an Oval Charm right now, and being able to just spend a shitton of money to tack 21 levels onto something would really help with evolving these dragons. X/Y is better for breeding for sure, and being able to see EVs in Super Training is really nice for avoiding mistakes, but I feel like virtually every other aspect of training the stuff you've bred was better in postgame B2/W2. Also, PWT is the best.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:50
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It feels like it takes generations for gamefreak to add basic basic things anyone else would have been beaten with tennis rackets for omitting. In 8 years we'll finally have the amazing ability to transfer and release more than one Pokemon at a time.
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Feb 22, 2014 20:01
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Night Blade posted:Well, does the Red Gyarados have competitive stats? The Gen 2 Red Gyarados had pretty bad stats since shinies were determined by a specific DV (precursor to IVs) spread that was generally pretty low. The Gen 4 Red Gyarados was randomly generated though so its IVs were as good as you had the luck/patience for.
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Feb 22, 2014 20:22
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Could someone explain to me why Noivern isn't used more commonly? I've been using a Scarfed Noivern to deal with Garchomps and as a late game threat, no one ever expects it so it's been working a treat. Is it not hard hitting enough/too fragle to see more wide use, or is Foucs Band Garchomp a common set so it isn't a problem? Only time I've ever seen one was a dude leading with a Telepathy Noivern using Boomburst and a Soundproof Exploud using Boomburst.
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Feb 22, 2014 20:42
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xNarUtoRKOrton420x posted:Could someone explain to me why Noivern isn't used more commonly? I've been using a Scarfed Noivern to deal with Garchomps and as a late game threat, no one ever expects it so it's been working a treat. Is it not hard hitting enough/too fragle to see more wide use, or is Foucs Band Garchomp a common set so it isn't a problem? Only time I've ever seen one was a dude leading with a Telepathy Noivern using Boomburst and a Soundproof Exploud using Boomburst. It has a fairly low Special Attack to hit hard enough without Choice Specs for most purposes. It is a decent revenge killer against other Dragons, but thats not exactly a role thats hard to fill any more. If it was just a tiny bit more powerful it'd be able to eke out some 2HKOs it just can't now.
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Feb 22, 2014 20:45
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xNarUtoRKOrton420x posted:Could someone explain to me why Noivern isn't used more commonly? I've been using a Scarfed Noivern to deal with Garchomps and as a late game threat, no one ever expects it so it's been working a treat. Is it not hard hitting enough/too fragle to see more wide use, or is Foucs Band Garchomp a common set so it isn't a problem? Only time I've ever seen one was a dude leading with a Telepathy Noivern using Boomburst and a Soundproof Exploud using Boomburst. It sounds like you're talking about doubles, and in that case, yes it's frail and not very powerful. Also you mean focus sash, not focus band on the garchomp. Sash works all the time at full HP. A scarf on noivern would be redundant at it's speed, and specs would leave it open to the common scarfed salamence/hydreigon. It does have frisk though, which can be used to scout out scarfed pokemon. All in all frisk is it's best ability for doubles since it lets you see the items of both opponents at the same time. It's already immune to earthquake so telepathy isn't much use. Boomburst is an interesting move, but not a good one, since it adds no coverage. As far as moves you should use Draco Meteor is a must, as well as one of it's flying STABS: air slash is preferred but hurricane can be used on a rain team. Special flying STABs and frisk are the main reasons to use it over salamence, (though salamence's intimidate is hard to pass up) otherwise it's outclassed. For instance, noivern learns flamethrower, but not fire blast. Also, if you're playing VGC rules, it's one of the few pokemon that can legally use tailwind. For items, I'd say focus sash or life orb. For singles I'd use frisk again with specs and switcheroo, or maybe infiltrator instead of frisk for killing through subs.
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Feb 22, 2014 21:22
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Sebadoh Gigante posted:Noivern stuff. Thanks a bunch. I realise that Scarf is more or less redundant but I've been using him mostly as a dragon killer so scarf lets him outspeed any other scrafed dragon. Plus I'm using my Focus Sash on a Mienshao who gets much better use out of it in my opinion. Maybe something like Weakness Policy Dragonite would work better for me then?
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Feb 22, 2014 22:02
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Finally have internet. I'll post my token "please give me free stuff" request in the poke trading thread but please add me in the mean time. 4785-6247-6786
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Feb 22, 2014 22:14
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Smogon's considering banning Swagger. I totally hope it gets banned, there really shouldn't be a strategy that turns the game into some Mario Kart bullshit where you basically have the game slapped out of your hand every few turns. I think King's Rock + Skill Link and Serene Grace + Paraflinch should be banned too but whatever. If Swagger gets banned then maybe Klefki could drop to UU and you'd be able to use priority Spikes and Screens there, that would be pretty fun. e: lol I'm so sorry I posted this now I am Reverend fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 22:20
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I am Reverend posted:Smogon's considering banning Swagger. I totally hope it gets banned, there really shouldn't be a strategy that turns the game into some Mario Kart bullshit where you basically have the game slapped out of your hand every few turns. I think King's Rock + Skill Link and Serene Grace + Paraflinch should be banned too but whatever. If Swagger gets banned then maybe Klefki could drop to UU and you'd be able to use priority Spikes and Screens there, that would be pretty fun. Personally I'm surprised swagger is being suspected before knock off. I think swagger being problematic is more of an issue with elo than actual results - swagger increases the chance that a 1000 elo player beats a 1600 elo one which causes massive swings. Also with regards to incoming posts about safeguard and other checks - switching out of swagger gives the swagger user a free turn to sub which gives them another free swagger later. Safeguard is a lot less useful in singles when if you spend a turn safeguarding they can spend that turn killing you and lacks real synergy with your own team. That said I have a positive record against swagger teams, but i can see it being miserable to play against them and really not a lot of people above 1600 elo were using swagger anyway due to consistency. Zoness fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 22:26
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As someone who's spent the last 10+ years around game designers and also saw players figure out 20 years of Magic the Gathering formats on the internet, it's kinda charming watching newer communities discuss game mechanics like random chance or what's "overpowered." Yeah, the players who are highly competitive but don't really think of the game as a whole don't really understand there must be an incentive for the worse player to play the game. This is where you see posts like "ban any strategy that makes the game more luck-based" with no sense of sarcasm. These players have no real sense of the game around them, nor any sense of where their skill level is in relative terms, which is pretty important considering the scenario they're promoting where new/suboptimal players just lose every single time. If players want to play a game where the best player always wins, play chess. It turns out that people don't really want to play chess, so those players should ask why they prefer to play Pokemon (or any other game). On a side note, I have no friends and I can't go on a Friend Safari so please add me =) 3DS Friend Code: 4570 - 8746 - 3955
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Feb 22, 2014 22:39
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Blinkman987 posted:On a side note, I have no friends and I can't go on a Friend Safari so please add me =) I'll add you, my code is 0490-5441-0451
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Feb 22, 2014 22:45
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Soulex posted:Finally have internet. I'll post my token "please give me free stuff" request in the poke trading thread but please add me in the mean time. 4785-6247-6786 Blinkman987 posted:
Added. 3566-1578-9713 IGN Jessica
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Feb 22, 2014 22:46
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Blinkman987 posted:Yeah, the players who are highly competitive but don't really think of the game as a whole don't really understand there must be an incentive for the worse player to play the game. This is where you see posts like "ban any strategy that makes the game more luck-based" with no sense of sarcasm. These players have no real sense of the game around them, nor any sense of where their skill level is in relative terms, which is pretty important considering the scenario they're promoting where new/suboptimal players just lose every single time. I think you misunderstand. I have no problem with luck based mechanics. I do have a problem with losing 10 matches' worth of rating points for losing to one. Like I said, it's a problem with elo and not the mechanic itself, because a lot of games like to throw in chance as a thing. The issue is that the rating system is based on consistency so losing a huge chunk of rating to chance is really frustrating. In fact, you'll find that game freak has done a lot with gen VI's crit mechanics particularly to both make crits (read: focus energy) more useful and less frustrating to suffer randomly. Also keep in mind that smogon has no say on official pokemon tournaments - their balancing is for their own metagames and formats. It just so happens that Smogon Tiering 6v6 formats are some of the more consistently fun formats to play. To relate it back to magic - banning swagger from smogon formats means as much to real pokemon tournametns as banning Rofellos from EDH means to real magic tournaments. Zoness fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 22:57
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In a logical sense I can fully understand why this would be done, but if this goes through I won't be able to use my stupid gimmicky Stunfisk I put on all my teams anymore and that would make me really sad. 
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Feb 22, 2014 23:02
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Zoness posted:I think swagger being problematic is more of an issue with elo than actual results - swagger increases the chance that a 1000 elo player beats a 1600 elo one which causes massive swings.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:08
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If they ban Swagger they better ban everything else that's protected by Safeguard.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:09
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Crosscontaminant posted:When do 1000 players get matched up against 1600 players in the first place? In my experience as a 1000 player they typically only get matched up against other 1000 players. I was exaggerating, but when I was trying to hit 1700 i'd periodically be matched up against 1200's. Losing to one of them could incur an elo loss of like, 50 points. nippon nifties posted:If they ban Swagger they better ban everything else that's protected by Safeguard. Name one team in singles that runs safeguard or this is just a complete joke. Also Safeguard is removed by defog and infiltrator exists and they can just sub on your safeguard turn or taunt you etc etc. Prankster Swagger has real counters in doubles like running safeguard but it's significantly stronger in singles because of move limitations.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:10
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How does Swagger differ significantly from other more permanent status moves? Burn spells inevitable doom AND cripples the victim's attack. Paralyze does the same but also causes just as much turn skipping. Hell, swagger is just as likely to backfire and ruin the user's day. Other statuses strike me as way more harsh.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:14
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alcharagia posted:In a logical sense I can fully understand why this would be done, but if this goes through I won't be able to use my stupid gimmicky Stunfisk I put on all my teams anymore and that would make me really sad. There's an option to ban any move that causes direct confusion (Swagger, Flatter, Confuse Ray etc.) on anything with Prankster which I feel would be the best way to go about this, since the feeling I'm getting from the Smogon board is that their problem is more with Klefki, Liepard and so on. Swagger has more uses than just Prankster Klefki so it wouldn't be fair to ban it outright (eg. setting up a scarfed Ditto, using it in tandem with Safeguard in doubles, using it on something with Own Tempo), but I have the feeling it will get a complete boot. People lobbying for a confusion clause or the complete removal of any confusion inducing move is  worthy to me though.The Bee posted:How does Swagger differ significantly from other more permanent status moves? Burn spells inevitable doom AND cripples the victim's attack. Paralyze does the same but also causes just as much turn skipping. Hell, swagger is just as likely to backfire and ruin the user's day. Other statuses strike me as way more harsh. Swagger in combo with Thunder Wave and Foul Play is the problem. It shuts down a Pokemon's chances of successfully pulling off a move to 30% (I think?) which allows the Pokemon using Swagger to set with a Sub or kill it off with Foul Play since that works on the opponent's Attack stat as apposed to your own (which means it works great with Swagger). And as pointed out switching out to cure the confusion only allows the Swagger user a free turn to set up/hit something else with Swagger/Thunder Wave. Blooming Brilliant fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 22, 2014 |
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Feb 22, 2014 23:16
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Zoness posted:Personally I'm surprised swagger is being suspected before knock off. Supposedly, the Smogon big wigs or whoever the hell don't think knock off is worth testing. So, uh, yeah. Can't wait for Pokebattle, because Smogon needs someone to give them a run for their money. Edit: Also can someone give me a straight answer on how I'm supposed to deal with Keldeo in UUbeta at the moment? He just crushes any team I make. I'm willing to grant that my teams are not very good, but it's so unbelievably frustrating.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:19
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Yeah the "no Swagger and Prankster" option seems fine to me. I won't really care if it doesn't happen since I don't play OU and thus I never see Klefki (though I guess I'd see more of it in whatever tier Liepard ends up in eventually since he's pretty poo poo in UU), but it seems reasonable enough.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:20
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JAssassin posted:Supposedly, the Smogon big wigs or whoever the hell don't think knock off is worth testing. So, uh, yeah. Keldeo is walled incredibly hard by Jellicent, so maybe consider that for part of a defensive core.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:21
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Zoness posted:I think you misunderstand. I have no problem with luck based mechanics. I do have a problem with losing 10 matches' worth of rating points for losing to one. Like I said, it's a problem with elo and not the mechanic itself, because a lot of games like to throw in chance as a thing. Sorry for the confusion. I was speaking to the forum link posted, not your opinions. Yes, ELO is flawed for the reasons you outlined. The swings are too great and in that it's a very poor judge of your actual skill, especially across short periods of time.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:23
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The Bee posted:How does Swagger differ significantly from other more permanent status moves? Burn spells inevitable doom AND cripples the victim's attack. Paralyze does the same but also causes just as much turn skipping. Hell, swagger is just as likely to backfire and ruin the user's day. Other statuses strike me as way more harsh. Also, once the swaggered up pokemon (assuming it's a physical pokemon) kills your swagger user, you can bring in a scarfed ditto, copy its attack boosts, and proceed to punch holes in your opponent's team. For extra fun against switching, set up some hazards! A prankster swagger team of Liepard/Thundurus-I/Klefki/Ditto/2 other revengers is really easy to use and pretty easy to consistently win with.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:23
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xNarUtoRKOrton420x posted:
Oh, that explains a lot. Thanks for the clarification!
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Feb 22, 2014 23:23
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Countblanc posted:Keldeo is walled incredibly hard by Jellicent, so maybe consider that for part of a defensive core. Jellicent doesn't really do much on his own, from my experiences. He doesn't have anything but sheer bulk, so he kind of just sits there and wiggles and I lose a lot of momentum.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:23
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JAssassin posted:Jellicent doesn't really do much on his own, from my experiences. He doesn't have anything but sheer bulk, so he kind of just sits there and wiggles and I lose a lot of momentum. Yeah I agree, Jellicent is pretty good but sucks outside of rain or very specific team setups (which is mainly why he dropped to UU). Also, having to dedicate an entire teamslot to countering one of the most common threats in the entire metagame is really dumb. I can't believe they've banned M-Gardy and Diggersby before even considering Keldeo.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:27
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Alabaster White posted:Yeah I agree, Jellicent is pretty good but sucks outside of rain or very specific team setups (which is mainly why he dropped to UU). Also, having to dedicate an entire teamslot to countering one of the most common threats in the entire metagame is really dumb. I can't believe they've banned M-Gardy and Diggersby before even considering Keldeo. Keldeo is pretty bad against Tornadus-T. It's outsped and only really has Icy Wind to hit for super effective which is a pretty weak move.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:28
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Know what for anyone wondering about Swagger usage or why Swagger/Prankster should be banned, here are two of my replays pre-bank when I was using Ditto/Klefki. Klefki stalls over half a team for forty plus turns (then Dittomania): http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oubeta-71299813 Ditto sweeps after a Klefki Swagger up: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oubeta-71283694
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Feb 22, 2014 23:29
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Zoness posted:Keldeo is pretty bad against Tornadus-T. It's outsped and only really has Icy Wind to hit for super effective which is a pretty weak move. I think the solution always being "throw more legendaries at it or this one obscure counter" is really unhealthy for the metagame. Yes yes I know the whole "oooh legendaries aren't always OP" argument but it's really stupid seeing nothing but Keldeos, Megas, and Tornadus-T's on every drat team.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:30
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Alabaster White posted:I think the solution always being "throw more legendaries at it or this one obscure counter" is really unhealthy for the metagame. Yes yes I know the whole "oooh legendaries aren't always OP" argument but it's really stupid seeing nothing but Keldeos, Megas, and Tornadus-T's on every drat team. Tornadus-T with a life orb actually has a hard time wallbusting a lot of things in the tier but it's a really strong u-turner that happens to have decent coverage. I don't actually see it used a lot but it's my favorite U-turn user in UU so v  v.
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Feb 22, 2014 23:36
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I am Reverend posted:I think King's Rock + Skill Link and Serene Grace + Paraflinch should be banned too but whatever. This would be the most unwarranted ban ever. xNarUtoRKOrton420x posted:Thanks a bunch. I realise that Scarf is more or less redundant but I've been using him mostly as a dragon killer so scarf lets him outspeed any other scrafed dragon. Plus I'm using my Focus Sash on a Mienshao who gets much better use out of it in my opinion. Maybe something like Weakness Policy Dragonite would work better for me then? There's other ways to kill dragons besides other dragons. Mamoswine and azumarill are both solid anti-dragon pokemon, but if you insist on fighting fire with fire, then scarfmence and focus sash garchomp are your best options. JAssassin posted:Jellicent doesn't really do much on his own, from my experiences. He doesn't have anything but sheer bulk, so he kind of just sits there and wiggles and I lose a lot of momentum. Jellicent burns stuff through both will-o-wisp and scald. If you play it right, it's pretty difficult for your opponent to switch in something without risking burns. And while it won't be sweeping anything, water/ghost has great neutral coverage. It's also one of the few bulky waters with recover, overall it's got a ton of stuff going for it besides just walling specific pokemon. Pomplamoose fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 00:17
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IIRC Jellicent caused a mod on Smogon to snap and start banning everyone at random, so he's ok in my eyes.
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Feb 23, 2014 00:22
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