Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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twoot: Oct 29, 2012

Nothing to add to HS2chat but I got linked this picture and thought it was really great;

Taken during the late-70s refurbishment of the Glasgow Subway at St Enoch's station. The current ticket hall is on a level between old building (now a Costa) and the lines.

# ? Feb 21, 2014 17:30

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# ? May 20, 2024 18:48

SybilVimes: Oct 29, 2011

TinTower posted:

And to be honest, the South can gently caress off about overcrowding when the 1713 Leeds to Harrogate is a 2-car Pacer.

In fairness, the Harrogate line was supposed to be electrified by now, another conservative failure I guess.

# ? Feb 22, 2014 00:36

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

twoot posted:

Nothing to add to HS2chat but I got linked this picture and thought it was really great;

Taken during the late-70s refurbishment of the Glasgow Subway at St Enoch's station. The current ticket hall is on a level between old building (now a Costa) and the lines.

i hadn't realised the site was used as a car park between st enoch station being demolished and the shopping centre being built.

as if beaching killing a beautiful well used station and thatcher cutting the red ribbon on a shopping mall weren't bad enough

edit: it's a caff� nero, not a costa

Cerv fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Feb 22, 2014

# ? Feb 22, 2014 09:34

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

SybilVimes posted:

In fairness, the Harrogate line was supposed to be electrified by now, another conservative failure I guess.

Adonis was probably the best transport minister in 30 years, purely because he agreed that Wakefield Kirkgate needed to be made less rapey.

# ? Feb 22, 2014 14:19

feedmegin: Jul 30, 2008

Metrication posted:

Isn't this a 'what if' kind of thing? That's the way it reads anyway.

Given that it's not July 2014 yet... :shobon:

# ? Feb 22, 2014 21:28

Hezzy: Dec 4, 2004; Pillbug

tentish klown posted:

by the time HS2 is complete it'll be both faster AND cheaper to fly from Newcastle/Manchester/Leeds than it will be to get the train.

It already is

Train from Manchester Piccadilly (MAN) to London St Pancreas International (STP) on an off peak single ticket - �81.70 2h30m
Eurostar to Paris - �140 2h25m
TOTAL - �221.70 4h55m

Flight from Manchester Airport to Charles de Gaulle - �76 1h40m

Based on prices from 24th Feb 2014

# ? Feb 23, 2014 04:19

Lead out in cuffs: Sep 18, 2012; "That's right. We've evolved."

"I can see that. Cool mutations."

Hezzy posted:

It already is

Train from Manchester Piccadilly (MAN) to London St Pancreas International (STP) on an off peak single ticket - �81.70 2h30m
Eurostar to Paris - �140 2h25m
TOTAL - �221.70 4h55m

Flight from Manchester Airport to Charles de Gaulle - �76 1h40m

Based on prices from 24th Feb 2014

Except that the flight time is only measured from the moment the doors close to the moment they open, and fails to account for: getting from Manchester proper to the airport, checking in, going through security, boarding and waiting on the tarmac, deboarding, collecting luggage (if you brought any), and getting from Charles De Gaulle into Paris proper. How long do you reckon all of that takes? I'd estimate at least 3-4 hours, plus some extra costs for transit tickets / taxi fares.

The flight may be cheaper, and you may spend less time on the actual main journey, but I sincerely doubt that it would get you to Paris faster.

Bozza posted:

also see Cervs last bit about city to city travel, one of rails biggest selling points

# ? Feb 23, 2014 04:50

Hezzy: Dec 4, 2004; Pillbug

Lead out in cuffs posted:

Except that the flight time is only measured from the moment the doors close to the moment they open, and fails to account for: getting from Manchester proper to the airport, checking in, going through security, boarding and waiting on the tarmac, deboarding, collecting luggage (if you brought any), and getting from Charles De Gaulle into Paris proper. How long do you reckon all of that takes? I'd estimate at least 3-4 hours, plus some extra costs for transit tickets / taxi fares.

The flight may be cheaper, and you may spend less time on the actual main journey, but I sincerely doubt that it would get you to Paris faster.

The time to get to the airport or train station will most likely be similar. I do agree that checking in and going through security would take longer, but it is a lot cheaper and a lot faster than taking a train. Even if boarding and unboarding took 2 hours you'd still be at 3 hours or so total as opposed to FIVE hours. And you'd be at least �100 better off.

Plus you could argue that planes are more reliable than trains. Planes aren't really subject to signalling failures, suicidal persons and cascading delays like trains are.

Hezzy fucked around with this message at 04:55 on Feb 23, 2014

# ? Feb 23, 2014 04:52

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Hezzy posted:

The time to get to the airport or train station will most likely be similar.

I don't think you can assume that at all.

Hezzy posted:

Even if boarding and unboarding took 2 hours you'd still be at 3 hours or so total as opposed to FIVE hours.

Point of information, 1 hour 40 + 2 hours isn't 3 hours - it's 4 hours.

# ? Feb 23, 2014 04:57

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

The "sweet spot" of high speed rail is usually up to about 1000km from origin. After that, the whole journey benefits lose out to the travel time.

# ? Feb 23, 2014 09:15

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

Hezzy posted:

It already is

Train from Manchester Piccadilly (MAN) to London St Pancreas International (STP) on an off peak single ticket - �81.70 2h30m
Eurostar to Paris - �140 2h25m
TOTAL - �221.70 4h55m

Flight from Manchester Airport to Charles de Gaulle - �76 1h40m

Based on prices from 24th Feb 2014

bit of a cheat to go for the most expensive train fares. 99% of the time anyone makes a journey of that distance you'll be able to book in advance instead of paying the walk up fare.
london to paris gets as low as �29.50, and manchester to eustion �12.50

on the other hand �76 is the cheapest possible fare i can find on Flybe's site. if you just turned up at the airport like your hypothetical just turning up at the train station it seems to be about �185
plus taxes

# ? Feb 23, 2014 09:53

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

in summary: the airline pricing model and its adoption by the rail industry makes it too loving complicated to ever say which is cheaper.

# ? Feb 23, 2014 09:54

Brovine: Dec 24, 2011; Mooooo?

Hezzy posted:

Plus you could argue that planes are more reliable than trains. Planes aren't really subject to signalling failures, suicidal persons and cascading delays like trains are.

Um...

Well, there's less people throwing themselves in front of planes, I'll give you that. ATC failures are fairly significant if relatively rare. Weather has far more effect on planes than trains in most cases so there's always that - winds or fog can make for a very bad day. Cascading delays? Hell yes there are, if not always so obvious to the general public; a security staff strike in Germany a few days ago cancelled, amongst other things, a flight between London and Edinburgh.

As for timing: that also depends exactly where you're starting from. If you happen to live near a major airport than planes get more advantage; if you happen to live near a major railway and not an airport than the trains get a head start.

# ? Feb 23, 2014 15:01

twoot: Oct 29, 2012

Standing at the station and an ancient diesel unit pulls through with some translator carriages. It revs up halfway through the station and covers everyone with a thick exhaust cloud.

I imagine that this is a train drivers gently caress you because they can't use puddles :colbert:

# ? Feb 28, 2014 14:47

Munin: Nov 14, 2004

TinTower posted:

Adonis was probably the best transport minister in 30 years, purely because he agreed that Wakefield Kirkgate needed to be made less rapey.

What is the story behind that comment?

# ? Feb 28, 2014 14:58

Cerv: Sep 14, 2004; This is a silly post with little news value.

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/feb/28/couples-railcard-third-off-train-fares

too old for a 16-25 railcard?
hopefully you have at least one friend.

# ? Feb 28, 2014 15:05

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

twoot posted:

Standing at the station and an ancient diesel unit pulls through with some translator carriages. It revs up halfway through the station and covers everyone with a thick exhaust cloud.

I imagine that this is a train drivers gently caress you because they can't use puddles

When I was doing my Personal Track Safety, I was told that if you fail to acknowledge an approaching Pendolino train, the drivers have got a button that they can press to dump the "waste water" tanks.

Then again, always turn your back to a passing HST unless you want to get a mouthful of bog water and other assorted stuff that they dump onto the track.

# ? Feb 28, 2014 15:45

Renaissance Robot: Oct 10, 2010; Bite my furry metal ass

Cerv posted:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/feb/28/couples-railcard-third-off-train-fares

too old for a 16-25 railcard?
hopefully you have at least one friend.

Time to take up ventriloquism.

# ? Feb 28, 2014 16:01

sweek0: May 22, 2006; Let me fall out the window
With confetti in my hair
Deal out jacks or better
On a blanket by the stairs
I'll tell you all my secrets
But I lie about my past

Hezzy posted:

It already is

Train from Manchester Piccadilly (MAN) to London St Pancreas International (STP) on an off peak single ticket - �81.70 2h30m
Eurostar to Paris - �140 2h25m
TOTAL - �221.70 4h55m

Flight from Manchester Airport to Charles de Gaulle - �76 1h40m

Based on prices from 24th Feb 2014

I know it's already been debunked, but you can quite easily get one single ticket from Manchester Piccadilly to Paris, for �64.50. It might be cheaper every now and then if you get a crazy cheap advanced ticket from Manc to London, but the Eurostar prices to/from the rest of the UK are actually quite reasonable.

# ? Feb 28, 2014 16:21

Jonnty: Aug 2, 2007; The enemy has become a flaming star!

Bozza posted:

Then again, always turn your back to a passing HST unless you want to get a mouthful of bog water and other assorted stuff that they dump onto the track.

I hear the 225s can be worse though - the retention tanks often fill up and have to be released via eye-level overflow pipes.

also there was that problem during the early stages of development where air pressure could explosively force the contents of the tanks back up through the toilet, coating the rooms in a fine layer of excrement. But they fixed that.

# ? Mar 1, 2014 13:08

vanity slug: Jul 20, 2010

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/11/bob-crow-dies-52-rmt-union-leader

Well poo poo.

# ? Mar 11, 2014 12:37

Drone_Fragger: May 9, 2007

Thatchers Union busting branch of MI5 strikes again.

# ? Mar 11, 2014 13:12

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

RIP Big Bob

In other railway related news, there's a decent article in the Guardian today about the work going on down at Dawlish which I'll paste here even though it's long as gently caress.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/10/rush-repair-hole-dawlish-train-line-network-rail

quote:

Proud rush to repair 'the hole' in Dawlish coastal train line
Thousand-strong orange army brings teamwork, imagination and willpower to round-the-clock job to get line reopened by 4 April

Lee Haberfield, a giant of a man from the Rhondda valley in south Wales, paused for a moment from his work in the spot that has earned itself the rather sinister nickname "the hole" to reflect on how much he and his fellow railway workers have achieved over the past five weeks.

"When we arrived, it was like something out of a disaster movie. It's been a battle to say the least. But I've really enjoyed working here," he says.

Haberfield reckons there are two premier construction jobs in the world at the moment � the race to finish the football World Cup stadiums in Brazil and this one, the repairs to the train line that hugs the Devon coast at Dawlish after the devastation of the great storm of 4 and 5 February. "You'll always be able to look back at this and say you were there and you helped fix it," he says.

Haberfield is a member of the 1,000-strong "orange army" that has been working night and day to fix the hole, the 100-metre breach in a section of sea wall that supported the mainline track from London to the far south-west of Britain � and dozens of other less spectacular but nonetheless tricky breaks along a 3.7-mile stretch.

Network Rail (NR), the owner and operator of Britain's railway infrastructure, has announced that it is expecting the line to re-open on 4 April � a huge relief to residents and business people whose lives have been disrupted by the break in the line and a vital boost for the region's tourism industry before the Easter holidays.

The repair work to the line, which is costing around �15m, has been a triumph for imaginative thinking and teamwork. In the early days the first job was making sure that another Atlantic storm heading Devon's way did not cause more damage to the main breach. One early idea was to rush in a rail-mounted concrete spraying machine that had been specially built to repair a tunnel in Devon and was standing idle. It shored up the sea wall, prevent further devastation and may have helped save houses that were teetering on the edge.

Another was the decision to drop a row of shipping containers in front of the seawall, each filled with 70 tonnes of rubble, to act as a temporary breakwater as more bad weather came in.

But then came the setback of the Valentine's Day storm, which washed away another hunk of sea wall, leading to the prospect of the line remaining closed until mid-April, a disaster for businesses in Cornwall and west Devon, which are losing millions of pounds a day because they are cut off. Plymouth alone estimates it is losing up to �5m a day.

More innovative engineering came to the rescue. The Dawlish team brought dozens of concrete motorway crash barriers and interlinked them to form two "frames" in the hole. They have so far poured 5,000 tonnes of concrete into the frames to build the sea wall back up to track level.

Patrick Hallgate, NR's route managing director, said he was confident this new structure, which is connected to the bedrock, will not be going anywhere any time soon. "An unfortunate event like the one experienced at Dawlish shows how important the railway is to the region's people and its economy," he says. "I hope our efforts to restore here show how seriously we treat that responsibility."

The planned re-opening on 4 April will not be the end of the story.

Phase two will be to make the line along the Devon coast � six miles of it � more resilient. Possible schemes include reshaping the wall so it repels waves more effectively or building a break out to sea. "Those sort of schemes go well beyond railway engineering," Hallgate says. Closing the line is not an option. NR has a responsibility to maintain a line to south Devon � and the seawall protects 7,500 homes in Dawlish. There would also be an outcry if one of the most attractive stretches of rail in the world (designed by Isambard Kingdom Brunel and opened in 1846) was lost.

The third phase will be to identify a backup route. NR has come up with five options, including reopening an inland line, and will report to the government this year.

South Devon is just one spot that Network Rail has to worry about. Almost 300 sections of tracks have been flooded this year and it will cost �170m for the repairs. With extreme weather becoming more common, organisations including the Institution of Mechanical Engineers are calling for a fundamental rethink of how vulnerable infrastructure is protected. But for now at Dawlish it is all about getting the line reopened.

The project is not out of the woods. In the past few days a crack has appeared in the sandstone cliffs above the line at Teignmouth and thousands of tonnes of material may have to be removed in the coming days and weeks. NR is still confident that the work will be completed by 4 April though.

There are 300 workers on site every day � including 100 by night. Work ranges from the technical � such as fixing cables (a link between the stock exchanges in New York and London was one of those cut during the storms) � to the backbreaking. At the moment teams are "packing and jacking" � fixing ballast into the tracks � by hand fork because sections are too fragile to bear the weight of machinery.

Chris Warburton, an agent for construction contractor Amco, said he is loving the job, despite having been separated from his family in Cheshire for long periods over the past month. "It's a privilege to work on a line that was created by one of the greatest engineers of all time. Brunel's work has lasted 150 years. We just hope that ours lasts another 150."

I'm actually working on the solution for Dawlish at the moment, as even though they've started to get the civils and track back into place, the signalling is still hosed. I'm going down on site Thursday, will hopefully get some decent pictures!

# ? Mar 11, 2014 19:02

Munin: Nov 14, 2004

I've just started seeing this ad coming up on YouTube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V71TQrqnOo

Why Portillo?

# ? Mar 11, 2014 20:12

Puntification: Nov 4, 2009; Black Orthodontromancy
The most British Magic; Fun Shoe

Munin posted:

I've just started seeing this ad coming up on YouTube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V71TQrqnOo

Why Portillo?

He presents a programme about riding around the country on trains following some victorian guide to Britain.

# ? Mar 11, 2014 20:53

Endjinneer: Aug 17, 2005; Fallen Rib

Bozza posted:

RIP Big Bob

In other railway related news, there's a decent article in the Guardian today about the work going on down at Dawlish which I'll paste here even though it's long as gently caress.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/10/rush-repair-hole-dawlish-train-line-network-rail

I'm actually working on the solution for Dawlish at the moment, as even though they've started to get the civils and track back into place, the signalling is still hosed. I'm going down on site Thursday, will hopefully get some decent pictures!

Pictures would be awesome, thanks for the article. It's like they're bending over backwards to avoid mentioning the term "Civil Engineer", not that we get bitter about these things or anything...

# ? Mar 16, 2014 19:37

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

This is just outside Dawlish Warren, it was a gorgeous day in Devon.

Round the corner a bit approaching Dawlish

First major damage to the sea wall I saw on the day

This is "THE HOLE", the big one. You can see the extent of the damage here

Some more smashed up sea wall

Dawlish is a Site of Special Scientific Interest so you get this quite menacing warning post

and when loving off:

Dawlish Station itself took a battering

Towards Teignmouth now, more sea wall damage

Looking back towards Dawlish and the purpose of my visit. The axle counter mushrooms all took a good kicking and local S&T had to take them all off because the loving p-way :argh:

kept twatting them with road railers

Hitched a lift at one point in this pimp wagon

...and a final one of the fry up I got in the hotel cos it was pretty boss

# ? Mar 16, 2014 20:06

distortion park: Apr 25, 2011

Bozza posted:

...and a final one of the fry up I got in the hotel cos it was pretty boss

I'm not sure about having the beans in a little pot!

# ? Mar 16, 2014 20:11

Ian Winthorpe III: Dec 5, 2013; gays, fatties and women are the main funny things in life. Fuck those lefty tumblrfuck fags, I'll laugh at poofs and abbos if I want to

Thanks Bozza, when all the world is being lovely, dedicated, innovative and colaborative crews of people working on infrastructure projects never fails to lift my spirits.

Those must have been some nasty-rear end waves.

# ? Mar 16, 2014 20:16

Blacknose: Jul 28, 2006; Meet frustration face to face
A point of view creates more waves
So lose some sleep and say you tried

pointsofdata posted:

I'm not sure about having the beans in a little pot!

It means you don't get beans mixed up with anything else unless you want to. That's the tipping point from good fryup to a boss as gently caress fryup.

# ? Mar 17, 2014 11:09

Ofaloaf: Feb 15, 2013

Puntification posted:

He presents a programme about riding around the country on trains following some victorian guide to Britain.

He has another, similar program where he takes a guide from 1913 and travels across Continental lines. It's alright stuff. A little hokey, but he's well-spoken, polite to everyone he meets and does seem to genuinely enjoy it all.

And to think, he almost became leader of the Conservatives back in '97.

# ? Mar 17, 2014 11:22

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

Former NR top gaffer, Sir David Higgins, has released his report on HS2 today. Had a quick flick through the exec summary and it sounds well thought out and rounded.

Will try and digest the rest.

# ? Mar 17, 2014 12:37

Bacon Terrorist: May 7, 2010; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

I'm actually the guard on the train Portillo gets off at on the Kents Bank episode. I'm visible for all of a millisecond but he did speak to me. 100 people on a 153 in the height of summer, another giddy day on the railway.

In other news, TPE are apparently looking into the use of 142's which would be quite a spectacular change in direction.

# ? Mar 17, 2014 13:11

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

Blacknose posted:

It means you don't get beans mixed up with anything else unless you want to. That's the tipping point from good fryup to a boss as gently caress fryup.

drat right, I hate soggy rear end hash browns caused by bean sauce osmosis.

# ? Mar 17, 2014 14:33

Munin: Nov 14, 2004

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

drat right, I hate soggy rear end hash browns caused by bean sauce osmosis.

That is prevented by correct plating though. Plate option also allows more beans than tiny bowl option.

I do like plenty of beans in my breakfast...

# ? Mar 17, 2014 14:47

nuzak: Feb 13, 2012

If you have beans in a ramekin does that make you a class traitor, or is it referring to the little pot as a ramekin that does you in

# ? Mar 17, 2014 15:06

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

nuzak posted:

If you have beans in a ramekin does that make you a class traitor, or is it referring to the little pot as a ramekin that does you in

Paging asbo to train chat

# ? Mar 17, 2014 16:54

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

Looks like the DfT's Incredibly Expensive Procurement project finally has something to show for itself http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-26657455

BBC posted:

Hitachi to move rail business to UK from Japan

Japanese electronics firm Hitachi says it will move its global rail business from Japan to the United Kingdom. The manufacturer of the first bullet trains says it hopes the move will help it to expand the rail business to 4,000 workers from the current 2,500. It hopes to increase revenue from 2bn to 3bn euros ($4bn; �2.5bn).

Last July, Hitachi won a �1.2bn deal to make the next generation of inter-city trains in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham, where it is building a factory. That will initially employ 750 workers when it opens next year. The move is an unusual one for a Japanese company, and puts it geographically nearer to its main train-building rivals, such as Siemens of Germany.

The BBC's industry correspondent, John Moylan, also says it will boost Hitachi's British credentials in the wake of rows over rail contracts being awarded to foreign firms. In a statement, the government described the move as a huge vote of confidence in Britain, its workforce and its rail industry.

Hitachi manufactures everything from nuclear power plants to construction machinery to televisions; its rail division is relatively small, employing around 2,500 of Hitachi's 326,000 workers. "Today's announcement is a significant sign of intent by Hitachi to grow its business in the rail market," said Alistair Dormer, chief executive of the global rail systems business. Both the UK and Japan remain important as markets for Hitachi Rail, and with our train factory in the north-east of England now under construction, we will work to realise our export potential from the UK, expanding into Europe and emergent markets."

The firm reported profits of 126 billion yen ($1.2bn; �725m) for the three-month period to 31 December 2013.

Countdown to the Coalition taking responsibility for this, from a project started nine years ago in 3.. 2..

# ? Mar 20, 2014 11:54

Metrication: Dec 12, 2010; Raskin had one problem: Jobs regarded him as an insufferable theorist or, to use Jobs's own more precise terminology, "a shithead who sucks".

Who will own the IEP trains? Is it government or ROSCOs? I think they are being paid for by the taxpayer but it would seem odd to me that this government would ever let all these lucrative trains with potentially very long returns be owned by the state.

# ? Mar 20, 2014 13:36

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# ? May 20, 2024 18:48

no_one: Mar 17, 2004; i'm a lying jerk; Lipstick Apathy

Hitachi are relocating their factory to the UK. That's gotta be good right?

# ? Mar 20, 2014 14:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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