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Blamestorm posted:I never understand the "why doesn't Batman just kill the joker" complaints because surely this argument could also apply to literally every policeman and Arkham doctor who ends up having access to the Joker while he's under confinement. Gotham could have the death penalty and execute him (this is badly explored in at least one batman comic) which at least would distribute culpability. If the democratic population arguably doesn't want to execute the Joker, what right does Batman have to? Hell, I could probably put together an argument for killing all sorts of people based on consequentialism but nobody blames me for not killing all kinds of people I theoretically could. I think this argument is kinda off, in that he DOES do things that others can't, like you say. Why can Batman beat the poo poo out of people, and spy on them, and whatever but not kill them? Aall those actions are incredibly against the law. Institutions want to be safe, and society wants to protect people from getting randomly killed, but Batman goes after people who are proven to be the criminals. Batman could kill the people who are proven to be incapable of redeeming themselves.
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Feb 25, 2014 06:51
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Batman not killing the Joker is a bit weird, but understandable. The problem I have with the character is that he has actively gone out of his way to save the Joker's life, including giving him lifesaving medical attention when saner people shot him. Remember, the Joker is a villain who nuked a small country, he is completely irredeemable and a major threat to society. Bruce Wayne isn't a vigilante, he's an rich adrenaline junkie that invented a new extreme sport. He's not out to save people, he's just trying to win the game, and if his opponents die he can't play with them anymore.
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Feb 25, 2014 07:54
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Drifter posted:I think this argument is kinda off, in that he DOES do things that others can't, like you say. Why can Batman beat the poo poo out of people, and spy on them, and whatever but not kill them? Aall those actions are incredibly against the law. Yeah, but once Batman delivers criminals to the police, any of them have the same capacity to then kill them? I'm just saying the argument can be extended all the way to "why not have the death penalty for the Joker" and everyone is then morally culpable. I think the point is by drawing the line somewhere Batman makes a statement about what kind of person he is and what role he's willing to play in society - sure, breaking rules, but fundamentally for the sake of protecting people like his parents, not murdering the poo poo out of any potential future threat if it can be established that threat is reasonably likely to materialise.
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Feb 25, 2014 08:22
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Avulsion posted:Batman not killing the Joker is a bit weird, but understandable. The problem I have with the character is that he has actively gone out of his way to save the Joker's life, including giving him lifesaving medical attention when saner people shot him. Remember, the Joker is a villain who nuked a small country, he is completely irredeemable and a major threat to society. I guess we'll have to call this a difference of opinion and a matter of perspective - always the challenge is with this stuff is that over the years Batman has been written in a variety of ways, so the way he's "supposed" to be is always up for personal interpretation. I guess for my preference he's fundamentally about saving lives and fixing systemic problems like the mob/corruption or addressing threats too large for the police (supervillains) but being a bit careful about how far he goes so he doesn't spiral into either an authoritarian force or villain himself (like the Punisher is half the time). Batman has been written in both of these ways in the past, of course, so it's all up to which version you prefer.
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Feb 25, 2014 08:25
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Everyone is wheeling out Batman in the 'Why Don't Superheroes Kill?' case, and ignoring the meta reason of comics code, the answer is stupidly simple and expanded on in pretty much every Batman media ever: he has mental issues with killing because of how his parents died. Hugo Strange is right! He's nuts! He's a rich kid with issues (lots of issues)! It just happens his brand of mental damage is beneficial to society because he chases down and brings in criminals that are too much for the police to handle.Blamestorm posted:I guess we'll have to call this a difference of opinion and a matter of perspective - always the challenge is with this stuff is that over the years Batman has been written in a variety of ways, so the way he's "supposed" to be is always up for personal interpretation. I guess for my preference he's fundamentally about saving lives and fixing systemic problems like the mob/corruption or addressing threats too large for the police (supervillains) but being a bit careful about how far he goes so he doesn't spiral into either an authoritarian force or villain himself (like the Punisher is half the time). Batman has been written in both of these ways in the past, of course, so it's all up to which version you prefer. This is also Superman's thing: He's a superpowered alien who grew up in Kansas being taught values like needing to be responsible with his powers. He's not going to go around dumpstering other people and lobotomizing them because that'd be an abuse of his power, and part of the same slippery slope argument that Batman uses on himself. Tying it back to Arrow, Oliver stopped killing because he realized that Tommy was right. He was becoming a callous, body-dropping monster, and what he was doing was morally reprehensible (just like the Huntress. I can't remember if this was expanded on in her return). The difference is that they live in a 'real' world, and sometimes you do have to kill (Vertigo). He's not going around putting nameless mooks in the morgue anymore, but if push comes to shove, he will still shove. Now, that'll never absolve Oliver for killing all those people, but the people who know Oliver both in universe as Arrow and those of us watching the TV screen know that a) him killing so many people was way wrong and b) that he is trying to limit that kind of collateral damage now. I mean, knock yourself out if you believe that he should be in jail and serve his time, but that'd make for a pretty boring TV show about comic book characters doing comic book things.
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Feb 25, 2014 08:50
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Blamestorm posted:Yeah, but once Batman delivers criminals to the police, any of them have the same capacity to then kill them? I'm just saying the argument can be extended all the way to "why not have the death penalty for the Joker" and everyone is then morally culpable. I think the point is by drawing the line somewhere Batman makes a statement about what kind of person he is and what role he's willing to play in society - sure, breaking rules, but fundamentally for the sake of protecting people like his parents, not murdering the poo poo out of any potential future threat if it can be established that threat is reasonably likely to materialise.  As far as "Why is Batman allowed to trespass and assault people and break all kinds of laws but not allowed to kill," well, it's a matter of degrees isn't it? It's a delicate balancing act. Jim Gordon and the police allow for Batman to routinely flaunt all kinds of laws because they know and trust that he won't ever break the really serious ones, chief amongst those being murder. Everyone involved understands that, for all the leeway Batman is allowed, there are still hard lines that can't be crossed, which is how they can justify allowing Batman that sort of freedom to do what he needs to do in the first place. If he ever did cross that line? They wouldn't be able to justify allowing him to do whatever he does without consequences anymore and would have to hunt him down (which is basically what happens in TDK). And as far as Arrow goes, I think Oliver himself might have said it best when he said that he was kind of just crossing names off a list and didn't really hold himself to any higher moral standard or even think about that stuff very much at the time. He absolutely went full-tilt "ends justify the means" in that first year and one of the best parts of season 2 was the fact that they finally addressed that. I like the (seeming) balance they've arrived at at this point where killing indiscriminately is wrong and absolutely a last resort...but it's still a potential resort.
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Feb 25, 2014 09:25
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The reason lots of comic vigilantes (barring grimdark 90s anti heroes trying to prove how edgy they are) avoid killing is that vigilantism shits all over due process enough as it is and being able to murder people with you eye lasers or power rings without oversight would be some Justice Lords poo poo real quick. Merlyn is the end result of a guy who wants to wipe out crime with that logic.
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Feb 25, 2014 12:30
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Yes, and I really like how Arrow has actually been exploring this territory. Early on the neck snapping and casual killing bothered me a bit but it ended up making the show stronger because they have been dealing with it. It will be interesting where they go from here to demonstrate Oliver's progress towards a more heroic figure.
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Feb 25, 2014 13:00
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Wouldn't the main reason why they don't kill off villains is so they don't have to come up with new villains?
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Feb 25, 2014 13:01
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Probably, but then the main reason Green Arrow exists at all is to rip off Batman, or Superman can mostly fly because it was convenient for the radio show, or whatever. Even if there was an external reason there has now been eighty or more years of narrative built around it "in universe" - don't see why that is off limits to talk about.
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Feb 25, 2014 13:03
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Avulsion posted:Bruce Wayne isn't a vigilante, he's an rich adrenaline junkie that invented a new extreme sport. He's not out to save people, he's just trying to win the game, and if his opponents die he can't play with them anymore. That sounds like an interesting premise to literally base a character on. Also, I liked how Arrow handled Ollie's early career as well. I remember being a bit uncomfortable with the character during the first season, especially when he killed random security guards who could have possibly been "just doing their job" and not knowing the full extent of their boss's actions. Ollie changed in the second season, becoming more "heroic," and this is what I like about the show: it's characters grow and change with time. Static is boring, and actually addressing moral issues about being a vigilante are interesting.
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Feb 25, 2014 14:26
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In Flash related news Nora Allen has been casted
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Feb 25, 2014 17:08
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bunnyofdoom posted:It's pretty much the inverse of arrow in that season 1 and the first half of Season 2 are great, and the rest is utter dogshit. Except the first season of Arrow is still better than any but the first season of Prison break.
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Feb 25, 2014 17:16
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I miss Prison Break. It was probably one of the craziest shows I've ever saw.
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Feb 25, 2014 17:17
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Really neat interview with Amell about what's next on the show: http://tvline.com/2014/02/25/arrow-season-2-preview-stephen-amell-oliver-sara-felicity-slade-finale/ Nothing of note is revealed but is always a blast to see how pumped for the show Amell is 
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Feb 25, 2014 22:41
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Dark_Tzitzimine posted:Nothing of note is revealed but is always a blast to see how pumped for the show Amell is I like Amell's enthusiasm. It never comes off as a fake "well, let me say this pre-approved line from the PR guys" kind of thing, instead he sounds genuinely happy about his show. It's like he sat down one day and thought to himself, "Holy poo poo! I get paid to dress up as a superhero on TV and fight pretend-bad guys! My life is pretty awesome!" He seems like a chill dude to hang out with.
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Feb 25, 2014 23:01
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I thought heroes didn't kill villains in comic books because they were made for kids. 
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Feb 26, 2014 01:21
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Krad posted:I thought heroes didn't kill villains in comic books because they were made for kids. Haha. Children's comics tend to have a strong merchandising arm behind them. And it's harder to convince many parents to buy blood and gore that they can directly see, unlike it being tuck away inside a DVDrom case.
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Feb 26, 2014 01:46
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Drifter posted:Haha. Children's comics tend to have a strong merchandising arm behind them. And it's harder to convince many parents to buy blood and gore that they can directly see, unlike it being tuck away inside a DVDrom case. Or unless you make it manga, because a ton of kids I see are reading the translated Jump or something just full of murder.
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Feb 26, 2014 02:27
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greatn posted:Or unless you make it manga, because a ton of kids I see are reading the translated Jump or something just full of murder. I'm in America, son. Mangas are for animes. Don't waste my time. 
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Feb 26, 2014 03:16
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This is wandering straight into the weeds, but remember that US cartoons prior to the mid90s couldn't even depict actual firearms that shoot bullets. For chrissakes, the SpiderMan animated series even banned him punching people, leading to the strangest action sequences an eleven year old can see. I only mention this because there are a few interviews with the Batman animated series creators, and their discussions of censorship and how much they had to fight are always HILARIOUS. I remember watching Arrow's pilot and actually doing a spit-take when Oliver snapped a guy's neck.
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Feb 26, 2014 04:15
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Krad posted:I thought heroes didn't kill villains in comic books because they were made for kids. The comics code reigned supreme only for a short while, from ~1954 through Seduction of the Innocent (a hilarious book about how comics led to juvenile delinquency and promoted homosexuality.) to the late 80s when it became irrelevant because nobody bought comics on newsstands anymore or cared about the stamp. One of the first comics about drug use was actually a Green Arrow comic about how Roy Harper was a drug addict. The code is pretty funny to look at now, especially in light of all the recent superhero movies: quote:Crimes shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals. That one in particular is hilarious.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:19
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Party Plane Jones posted:The comics code reigned supreme only for a short while, from ~1954 through Seduction of the Innocent (a hilarious book about how comics led to juvenile delinquency and promoted homosexuality.) to the late 80s when it became irrelevant because nobody bought comics on newsstands anymore or cared about the stamp. One of the first comics about drug use was actually a Green Arrow comic about how Roy Harper was a drug addict. I've always drawn the line at ghouls.
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Feb 26, 2014 06:45
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Meretricious is such a great word.
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Feb 26, 2014 07:09
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Werewolfism. Truly, the brain trust at work on that list were giants among men.
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Feb 26, 2014 07:53
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Now I know why my ancestor's comic entitled "Horror of the Corrupt Vampiric Cannibal Ghoul Cops vs the Glamorous Tortured Werewolf Dope Dealers" failed. If only they knew the Code.
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Feb 26, 2014 08:39
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I just realized that we will have a few weeks in April where Arrow, Hannibal, Game of Thrones, Orphan Black and Continuum all air within a few days of each other.
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Feb 26, 2014 12:50
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TyrantWD posted:I just realized that we will have a few weeks in April where Arrow, Hannibal, Game of Thrones, Orphan Black and Continuum all air within a few days of each other. Mad Men says hi. 
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Feb 26, 2014 13:34
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BreakAtmo posted:Mad Men says hi. I've never watched Mad Men  . It's on my list with Breaking Bad and House of Cards for shows to watch over the summer (in addition to an encore of Arrow season 2 which I'll leave for late summer, to reduce the wait time for season 3).
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Feb 26, 2014 14:22
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TyrantWD posted:I've never watched Mad Men Dude. Mad Men. Now. You might be able to get all 6 seasons done by April 13. You absolutely must see it.
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Feb 26, 2014 14:38
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There is no shortage of shows that air over the summer now. It's no longer a dead TV period.
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Feb 26, 2014 15:23
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Bad Moon posted:Now I know why my ancestor's comic entitled "Horror of the Corrupt Vampiric Cannibal Ghoul Cops vs the Glamorous Tortured Werewolf Dope Dealers" failed. If only they knew the Code. The code was only really powerful in 1950-70. After the one two punch of Spider-man and Green Arrow drug issues they lost a poo poo load of power, and slowly all the rules were broken. After that they were just rubber stamped. In early 2000 Marvel said gently caress it and got rid of the code seal entirely. DC kept it for a couple more years, but still ignored the rules completely.
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Feb 26, 2014 15:27
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Such moral decadence has unleashed the likes of Greg Land upon the world.
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Feb 26, 2014 15:35
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zoux posted:Such moral decadence has unleashed the likes of Greg Land upon the world. No he would first have to draw his own art not trace porn. So new episode tonight?
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Feb 26, 2014 15:38
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It's probably not intentional, but it's cool how this show airs on new comic book day.
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Feb 26, 2014 15:41
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SSSSSSuper spoiler images from next week's episode: http://i.imgur.com/sx5wwAz.jpg http://i.imgur.com/hjzLKWr.jpg
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Feb 26, 2014 15:45
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zoux posted:SSSSSSuper spoiler images from next week's episode: Someone looks pissed, and another looks super smug.
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Feb 26, 2014 15:46
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zoux posted:SSSSSSuper spoiler images from next week's episode: Those look like photoshops.
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Feb 26, 2014 16:19
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TyrantWD posted:I just realized that we will have a few weeks in April where Arrow, Hannibal, Game of Thrones, Orphan Black and Continuum all air within a few days of each other. What about Vikings? 
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Feb 26, 2014 20:24
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zoux posted:SSSSSSuper spoiler images from next week's episode:
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Feb 26, 2014 22:58
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