quote:

Welp. They tried so hard.

quote:

Communist parties in the East at this point have poo poo to do with actual communism, or anything leftist. They are mostly there to support Russian politics, and make an impression of plurality in former Soviet bloc countries' parliaments. The "communists" in Ukraine were in coalition with Party of Regions and never did poo poo to either oppose the oligarchs or stop the country's slide into neoliberalism.

quote:

The fact that fascists got involved doesn't change the fact that the revolution in Ukraine wasn't a fascist uprising. The Right Sector gained some traction, but people hardly clamor to unite behind Dmytro Yarosh. In fact, they hardly clamor to unite behind anyone - if anything, they remained very mistrustful of politicians. This alone will make setting up a fascist dictatorship harder.

And there is a lot that the left actually gained from the uprising, regardless of its composition. The narrative of common Ukrainians banding together to overthrow a corrupt government and succeeding actually is more useful to the left, than to the right (especially fascists who love strong leaders). The image of people beating up and dispersing cops in riot armors is more inspiring than ten essays about means of production. There is also a lot of practical knowledge how to organize a mass demonstration (or uprising, if it's needed), how not to get dispersed and beaten up, organizing a self-defence force to police the occupied territory.

Gantolandon posted:

The Right Sector started to attack the police, but that wouldn't mean poo poo without mass support and other, non-fascist factions. They would be very quickly overwhelmed by Berkut, if not for hundreds of people fighting with them and Maidan's infrastructure. Even with their newfound cred, I don't see them gathering such mass support for establishing a fascist dictatorship.

Claims that it would be better for a right-wing, authoritarian and corrupt government to win, because there is a slight possibility that otherwise fascists could take over, coming from the members of the left are pure .

Mans posted:

I'm sure a goon is the missing link that was missing for the unity of the left in Ukraine! If only you were there you'd totally fight off the armed threats, the beatings to leftists and LGBT activists and the enormous right wing, nationalist populism that was formented by the politicans in the opposition and the fascists! Ah yes, those lazy leftists didn't even try at all, they didn't have the bravery of Gantolandon!

quote:

Thanks for saying what i did while also ingoring that the Party of Regions wasn't banned.

Maybe if you think the CPU was banned because it sided with Yanukovich you're gullible enough to belive that fascists being a component of the vanguard of the protests is not a bad thing...

quote:

There we go! People banding together to openly reject LBGT rights,

quote:

siding together with Svoboda or Right Sector and making public councils where armed improvised police officers, manned mostly by the far right, isn't a good thing to the left unless you're either not a leftist or a leftist way outside of Ukraine.

quote:

Ukraine already had popular uprisings that took down a government, the end result was the former government whose incompetence and corruption put Yanukovich right back in power. Now that a right wing narrative, supported by fascists due to their popularity for being so eager to die like dogs against cops and a pro EU mentality has emerged in the west you'd be a fool to think the left got anything to gain from this. They were lost and weak before this, afterwards only a miracle will take them from the hole.

quote:

All that organization and fear means squat. Like i said in the thread, Portugal, France and Poland all had massive popular protests who put the status quo in jeopardy and a few years later neoliberalism was kicking those countries teeth without a care in the world.

quote:

The police was mostly dispersed not because of bravery but because of lovely wages and gear. Right Sector militants will be much harder to fight off because they'll gladly beat your liberal rear end for free.

quote:

You don't need the fascists to reach power to create a direful situation in the ground. The Golden Dawn or the Front Nacionale don't need to reach power, they have enough upper\upper middle-class capital, police officers, white collar managers and street thugs (who are not cops) to pressure enough people into right wing populism, anti-strikes and firing anyone with even a centrist narrative. They can also organize pressure to push governments to the right, pressure which would be quickly dissolved if attempted by the left.

quote:

Since no one said they supported Yanukovich i don't know why you're even saying such stupidity. We could surely talk about the problem with an Islamic-based revolution in Iran without defending the former dictatorship.

Zohar posted:

God drat, I don't 100% agree with Mans but you're twisting their words virtually beyond recognition.

Gantolandon posted:

Edit: I just realized that, according to this logic, KPD were stupid to try to ferment a revolution in the 30s... they should have supported Hindenburg and von Papen instead.

Gantolandon posted:

A corrupt right-wing government is nowhere near a given right now. With Yanukovych in power you have this pretty much a given. Also, banning Russian TV and reverting the act of minority language autonomy were only propositions that didn't even pass, mostly because nearly everyone but the Right Sector thought them stupid and over the top.

Edit: I just realized that, according to this logic, KPD were stupid to try to ferment a revolution in the 30s... they should have supported Hindenburg and von Papen instead.

Raskolnikov38 posted:

Except for the whole Hindenburg dying and Papen being one half of the pair that let Hitler become chancellor thing.

Install Windows posted:

Yes that's the point. They were corrupt authoritarian conservatives.

Mans posted:

Now that a right wing narrative, supported by fascists due to their popularity for being so eager to die like dogs against cops and a pro EU mentality has emerged in the west you'd be a fool to think the left got anything to gain from this. They were lost and weak before this, afterwards only a miracle will take them from the hole.

Ardennes posted:

It is pretty much a given because the only parties in power are right-wing, they may or may not be authoritarian right-wing, we have to see but yeah actual leftists aren't anywhere on either side. Also the language autonomy law was passed from every news article I have seen. Banning Russian TV and pro-Russian parties is still up in the air.

As far as the KPD, they could have done much better at making alliances during the early 1930s I will say that, so could the SPD.

Omi-Polari posted:

I was just reading these profiles of prominent Maidan leaders that has an entry on Dmytro Yarosh. It's RFE/RL so take it for what it's worth. But it states that "Right Sektor has not lost a single member to violence since the start of the protests" which seems to be at odds with the claims that they were doing most of the fighting and dying. Though it also describes the group as "a well-armed paramilitary group that has defended Maidan encampments but also contributed to some of the protest's most brutal street fighting."

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-euromaidan-stalwarts-government/25278153.html

Though I don't disagree with you about the left. But I also don't particularly care if the left is moribund there.

quote:

As for the language autonomy law, it is a bit stranger - it was a pretty new law that was passed several years ago and was repealed by the parliament during the flurry of acts after Yanukovych escaped Kiev.

quote:

"May or may not be" is a key phrase here. I'd say that a possibility of an authoritarian government is better than an actual right-wing corrupt government in power that also happens to shoot protesters with live ammo, or kidnap and torture them.

Ardennes posted:

It is still a relatively new law, but one that honestly should have been done and kept. Russians are going to be apart of Ukraine (as long as it remains one country, we will see) and even if Russian were given historical priority, you have to allow minorities to keep their languages (in my opinion). That said, I believe Catalans, Basque, Bretons and Hungarians outside of Hungary should have language autonomy as well (as other minorities in similar situations).

Although in a functional sense Ukrainian and Russian while different languages are highly intelligible with each other.

quote:

Actually I believe in that sense your right, the government is obviously less authoritarian at this point (as corrupt and economically conservative, but less authoritarian) but I don't think it being "overly concerned" to say yeah there are already some problems. Also, the issue of economics should probably be addressed on its own since you can say they are less authoritarian and not undercut that by saying that Ukraine has some pretty massive fiscal issues ahead of it.

Gantolandon posted:

Economical conservatism is a given, at this point - this was pretty much announced by the new prime minister (who straight out said that the country needs to regain the trust of its creditors, and gave the standard drivel about "unpopular reforms"). Hopefully, at least accountability of the government to the people will be better.

Gantolandon posted:

I don't feel I misrepresented something there. It certainly didn't help that their post contained a lot of assumptions that simply are not true. There were no widespread ban of the Communist Party, the regional bans didn't single them out (as opposed to the Party of Regions) and I don't know anything about incidents where people clamored to have LGBT rights curtailed.

Ardennes posted:

I would say that IMF (or just "structural reforms") and minority rights (or the relationship between Kiev and Russian/Russo-philic regions) is the two key flashpoints. I think the test will be if and when the new government does make unpopular decisions and how they handle them.

As for the far-right themselves and the persistence on the streets, it is an issue worth discussing but I don't think as of yet it is going to be the sort of flash point that is going to lead to a crisis.

Ardennes posted:

That said, there is evidence of fascist symbols and Right Sector flags out there. In addition, there were other groups (such as Svoboda).

Omi-Polari posted:

I was just reading these profiles of prominent Maidan leaders that has an entry on Dmytro Yarosh. It's RFE/RL so take it for what it's worth. But it states that "Right Sektor has not lost a single member to violence since the start of the protests" which seems to be at odds with the claims that they were doing most of the fighting and dying. Though it also describes the group as "a well-armed paramilitary group that has defended Maidan encampments but also contributed to some of the protest's most brutal street fighting."

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-euromaidan-stalwarts-government/25278153.html

Though I don't disagree with you about the left. But I also don't particularly care if the left is moribund there.

Zohar posted:

I was referring to statements you were attacking like only True Bolsheviks having any authority to comment, the Polish protests being leftist, Euromaidan only happening because of the fascists, the fascist 'cognitive dissonance' thing, none of which were things Mans was actually saying as far as I could tell.

Mans posted:

The reports that talk about leftists being driven away also talk about rejection of LGBT protesters and the open anti communist stance of the far right is open and clear throughout the entire thing.

KazigluBey posted:

You keep saying this or things like this, yet after blitzing through the thread the other day in order to get caught up this doesn't seem to come up as much as you make it out, especially during the periods in which people were live-updating as events unfolded. Yes, people posted, especially during the beginning of the whole mess, that there was fascist symbols and iconography present among some protestors, yet even then nobody was claiming they were a majority or in control. I'm surprised that more non-Russian sources on this haven't been posted, if it's such a widespread problem, especially local sources given the amount of on-the-ground footage found earlier in the thread.

EDIT: I am referring to the Easter Europe thread, actually, didn't notice this was the Fash thread, though the Ukraine/Fash topic is being discussed in both thread so I guess easy mistake to make.

Ardennes posted:

Ultimately there isn't much to go on, because by and large it is very difficult to tell the political motives of those involved unless they actually were talking around with a flag or symbols. If anything it was largely anonymous over many times the flags you saw were UPA and Ukranian in the more violent sections in the protests rather than EU and Ukrainian in the maidan itself, and sometimes you might see a Svoboda or a UDAR flag. This became more mixed and convoluted in the last days as the riot police charged right into the maidan itself. However, one thing is for sure, it was hard to find any leftist flags of note (unless you mistook a UPA flag for an Anarchist one). I don't remember seeing any rainbow flags either.

KazigluBey posted:

You keep saying this or things like this, yet after blitzing through the thread the other day in order to get caught up this doesn't seem to come up as much as you make it out, especially during the periods in which people were live-updating as events unfolded. Yes, people posted, especially during the beginning of the whole mess, that there was fascist symbols and iconography present among some protestors, yet even then nobody was claiming they were a majority or in control. I'm surprised that more non-Russian sources on this haven't been posted, if it's such a widespread problem, especially local sources given the amount of on-the-ground footage found earlier in the thread.

EDIT: I am referring to the Easter Europe thread, actually, didn't notice this was the Fash thread, though the Ukraine/Fash topic is being discussed in both thread so I guess easy mistake to make.

Mans posted:

You didn't see people posting about how fascist present in the protests isn't a bad thing, that they being on the "good" side is not something to be concerned about and that thinking two times about it means you're just worried about your ideologic purity?

You don't need a majority of people to be on the far right parties for them to spread their poison.

KazigluBey posted:

Yes, I saw those posts, along with yours and a few other posters that seemed to fixate on a massive swing rightward for the Ukraine, or something to that effect given how much you played it up. My question stands, though: given the degree of footage that we have in that thread, along with Ukraine-source articles and the like, how come there isn't something a bit more concrete to base what you and others were saying? Saying "You don't need a majority of people to be on the far right parties for them to spread their poison." isn't helpful, because it isn't a statement on the political leaning and balance of the current political landscape of the Ukraine, post protests. Do you have more to back it up, especially from Ukraine sources? I'd very much appreciate reading about it, if it's such a looming problem.

KazigluBey posted:

Yes, I saw those posts, along with yours and a few other posters that seemed to fixate on a massive swing rightward for the Ukraine, or something to that effect given how much you played it up. My question stands, though: given the degree of footage that we have in that thread, along with Ukraine-source articles and the like, how come there isn't something a bit more concrete to base what you and others were saying? Saying "You don't need a majority of people to be on the far right parties for them to spread their poison." isn't helpful, because it isn't a statement on the political leaning and balance of the current political landscape of the Ukraine, post protests. Do you have more to back it up, especially from Ukraine sources? I'd very much appreciate reading about it, if it's such a looming problem.

Mans posted:

I'm more pissed at the reaction so many liberals have about the role of fascists in Ukraine and the collapse of the government, specially since most of these liberals are the same who waved off the Arab Spring as fundamentalists and Al-Qaeda fighting against legitimate governments

Mans posted:

The die like dogs part was the mentality that can be expressed after the protests. No matter how many of them actually died the truth is that they showed public capacity to go fort, beat up cops and eat sniper bullets. A fallen moderate killed next to them will be painted as a silent supported and dead bodies don't talk. The problem here is just how right leaning the average Ukranian is, coupled with a terrible left and an organized and now lionized far right. In the next crisis (which will 100% happen because the EU is still slowly dying) where do you think radicalism will fall into? Unless a complete revolution of the left and worker's groups revitalizes opposition you will be stuck in an endless loop of right wing authoritarian governments whose differences will be if they prefer warm winters with Putin or eating Bratwurst with Merkel. Since crisis are no good to foster moderation it isn't hard to assume Svoboda and the Right Sector (and all the devil spawns between them), who most likely, or at least appearance wise which is what's important, were fundamental groups to the collapse of the current government, will grow in importance, in dependance by the state to keep the population calm\forcibly pacified and maintain the status quo of the oligarchs and foreign interests.

Mans posted:

Outside D&D yes. Here a bit too but the left has been really terrible in that regard aswell.

Mans posted:

I'm more pissed at the reaction so many liberals have about the role of fascists in Ukraine and the collapse of the government, specially since most of these liberals are the same who waved off the Arab Spring as fundamentalists and Al-Qaeda fighting against legitimate governments (unless it was Gadaffi, in that case they immediately supported the struggle against him), the same who ignore factories in Bangladesh collapsing, South African police opening machine gun fire against striking miners or Cambodian police uses AK 47s against workers on strike.

Silver2195 posted:

Who has been doing this, exactly? Are you talking about people posting here? Because I'm pretty sure it's mostly the far-left posters who were anti-Arab Spring.

Miltank posted:

The number of leftists who gobble up Moscow propaganda is pretty alarming.

e: The idea is anti-West/EU = good

Silver2195 posted:

In all fairness, the right in America is even more creepily pro-Putin at times.

Omi-Polari posted:

And outright pro-Putin, as well, to the point of wanting a Putin-type leader in America. The left tends to either equivocate about Putin or side with the Kremlin's foreign policy positions.

Zohar posted:

Yeah the Western right actually support or at least sympathise with Putin's policies, whereas the pro-Russian left only like him in as much as he's anti-Western and they conceive of everything as a geopolitical showdown between a hegemonic (therefore evil) West and an anti-hegemonic (therefore good) Russia/China bloc.

quote:

American media coverage of Vladimir Putin, who today began his third term as Russia’s president and 13th year as its leader, has so demonized him that the result may be to endanger U.S. national security. For nearly 10 years, mainstream press reporting, editorials and op-ed articles have increasingly portrayed Putin as a czar-like “autocrat,” or alternatively a “KGB thug,” who imposed a “rollback of democratic reforms” under way in Russia when he succeeded Boris Yeltsin as president in 2000. He installed instead “venal regime” that has permitted “corruptionism, encouraged the assassination of a “growing number” of journalists and carried out the “killing of political opponents.” Not infrequently, Putin is compared to Saddam Hussein and even Stalin.

Well-informed opinions, in the West and in Russia, differ considerably as to the pluses and minuses of Putin’s leadership over the years—my own evaluation is somewhere in the middle—but there is no evidence that any of these allegations against him are true, or at least entirely true.

http://www.thenation.com/article/176191/demonizing-putin-endangers-americas-security

Mans posted:

The die like dogs part was the mentality that can be expressed after the protests. No matter how many of them actually died the truth is that they showed public capacity to go fort, beat up cops and eat sniper bullets. A fallen moderate killed next to them will be painted as a silent supported and dead bodies don't talk. The problem here is just how right leaning the average Ukranian is, coupled with a terrible left and an organized and now lionized far right. In the next crisis (which will 100% happen because the EU is still slowly dying) where do you think radicalism will fall into? Unless a complete revolution of the left and worker's groups revitalizes opposition you will be stuck in an endless loop of right wing authoritarian governments whose differences will be if they prefer warm winters with Putin or eating Bratwurst with Merkel. Since crisis are no good to foster moderation it isn't hard to assume Svoboda and the Right Sector (and all the devil spawns between them), who most likely, or at least appearance wise which is what's important, were fundamental groups to the collapse of the current government, will grow in importance, in dependance by the state to keep the population calm\forcibly pacified and maintain the status quo of the oligarchs and foreign interests.

quote:

You don't need to be Lenin to understand just how utterly stupid it is to claim that the left didn't try hard enough after any attempt at organizing a leftist side of the protests ended in summary beatings and expulsion. The left was hopeless in the movement, much like it was already hopeless before. Only a retard, or a Svoboda goon who wished he could've beaten some leftists, would say that the left should've "tried harder" to participate alongside the mentality of the protests.

Mans posted:

I'm more pissed at the reaction so many liberals have about the role of fascists in Ukraine and the collapse of the government, specially since most of these liberals are the same who waved off the Arab Spring as fundamentalists and Al-Qaeda fighting against legitimate governments (unless it was Gadaffi, in that case they immediately supported the struggle against him), the same who ignore factories in Bangladesh collapsing, South African police opening machine gun fire against striking miners or Cambodian police uses AK 47s against workers on strike.

Not to mention how much they like to whistle to the side about literal fascists rising inside the EU or switch all confrontations between police and protesters as professional thugs fighting poor police officers.

Omi-Polari posted:

Assuming all of that requires overlooking some important facts. Like the fact that Svoboda's support during the height of the protests was half what it was two years ago. It overlooks that the far right is more divided now. There's a new generation of activist leaders radicalized by Maidan who are not of the far right. And it all overlooks the many ways Yanukovych and his supporters in Russia have exploited anti-Semitism (spreading propaganda that the protesters are "Nazi-Zionists") and homophobia (the Russian press is in horror at rumors Ukraine's new interior minister is gay) and - allegedly - using far right groups supportive of Yanukovych (tiny ones, granted) as agents provocateurs.

Exactly right. The western left is getting played by RT and the Kremlin just as liberals were back in the day when you had dictators like Salazar and Franco. They co-opted or tolerated the pure fascists and sidelined the ones that didn't want to be co-opted, and then used their presence as justification for authoritarian rule with concessions from Washington and the European capitals. Gays in Russia are being attacked by state-backed fascist vigilante gangs and where's the Western left?

Gantolandon posted:

he left is hosed precisely because it frequently doesn't bother to do anything together, preferring to pursue their own pet projects. You could think that the threat of an authoritarian, right-wing government violently cracking down on peaceful opposition would be enough to at least work out at least a common stance. What happened instead, you could see in that article.

Gantolandon posted:

Please explain how the bolded part is going to happen, because right now it's pretty clear the left is going to do jack poo poo about conservatives, until others organize a revolution for them, realize that without the left they can't hope to ever win and then humbly ask the communists to assume leadership.

Wait, this isn't going to happen, because fascists apparently multiply like xenomorphs. You just let one into your protest and welp, there is no hope, he'll just lay swastika-adorned eggs, spawn little face-hugging Hitlers and you'll just stand there, helpless, and it will be YOUR fault for letting them into your protest instead of true saviors from the left!


The left is hosed precisely because it frequently doesn't bother to do anything together, preferring to pursue their own pet projects. You could think that the threat of an authoritarian, right-wing government violently cracking down on peaceful opposition would be enough to at least work out at least a common stance. What happened instead, you could see in that article.

I will risk appearing even more like a Svoboda fascist and say that one of the most serious reasons why the left is moribund in the Eastern Europe is because they appear weak and useless. People actually sided with Bolsheviks not because of their inherent moral superiority, but because they actually were competent and well-organized enough to offer them some stabilization. No one is going to side with people who constantly wait for some better times and their last victory they can bring up happened maybe 70 years ago.

Gantolandon posted:

Ardennes posted:

The reason the left didn't do poo poo in Ukraine is they barely existed in the first place, it is like calling a ghost lazy. In addition, also certainly even if they draped themselves in the Ukrainian flag they would have been outed as "Russian traitors" by far-right because the far-right hates leftists among many others.

quote:

The Bolsheviks hit at a point that really hasn't arrived, especially the fact that Russia in 1917 was already was already very left leaning and (other) socialists had already assumed control. They failed (the other leftists)), which gave the most extreme of the leftists an opening and they took it.

If anything the present-era it is a contrary example, Ukraine has steadily moved to the right and any leftists would be isolated as hell not just from the far-right but the center-right as well. In addition, they would be attaching themselves to a revolution that to be honest isn't going to turn out so well for the average Ukrainian economically. No leftist is going to fight in the streets for IMF loans.

Basically, they are so marginalized they don't have a place to fight, if it is a choice between the opposition and the Yanukovich, it sounds like most leftists thought neither and stayed at home because it is ultimately an inner right-wing conflict. What what would they gain at this point anyway? An association agreement with the EU (which is very different being on a track to accession)? Svoboda in the cabinet? Austerity from the aforementioned loans? It is a lose-lose situation especially for them.

Mans posted:

The left is hosed in Ukraine because the ghost of the left is captured in the CPU which puts the image of the left directly connected to a terrible image of corruption and regionalism. Any leftists attempting to be "strong" will be literally beaten by fascists, as it loving happened. The left will forever be moribund in Ukraine and Russia while the iconography of the left remains masterfully controlled by the status quo and will be dead on the water in Poland because they are literally banned (while fascists and football hooligans are free to roam and even run as candidates to positions of power).

Gantolandon posted:

I really, really doubt it. From what I saw in the article, they were chased out of the protest when it was a (kinda) peaceful demonstration and no one yet expected the sudden turn of events. Fascist may hate the left, but probably not to the point of attacking their fellow defenders in the middle of the Berkut attack.

quote:

So what does the left in the Ukraine had to gain from conflict with Yanukovych? Mostly, it would allow them to clear their name and become visibly distinct from their "compatriots" from Communist Party of Ukraine. There is also a (slight) chance they could turn the gaze of the people to all oligarchs, rather than only those connected to Yanukovych. Of course, you can argue they would never become influent enough to ever achieve it, but they could certainly try.

Now they are truly hosed. If they oppose the current government from any reason, it's their word against the word of established revolutionaries. If they ever criticize the Right Sector too much, the latter can safely accuse them of wanting to put Yanukovych back in power.