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Next month I am violating the sacred goon principle of being a bearded social recluse and I'm attending a party. The hostess knows my affinity for cocktails and has requested that I make classic and prohibition era cocktails for the guests. While there are a ton of drinks I'd like to make, I've decided to focus on one spirit : Rye. I know ryes popularity is back on the upswing, thank god. But outside of cocktail enthusiasts I don't think many people are familiar with rye. This is a good chance to make a few people rye fans, so I want to do this right. Question 1: What cocktails do you think are best for showcasing the taste of Rye? The Manhattan and Sazerac are obvious choices, but what else would you recommend? I think a rye Old Fashioned is nice, and I'm a big fan of using rye in a Derby and Boulvadier. Question 2: I'm thinking of picking two ryes so people can compare how different ryes will taste in the same cocktail. Rittenhouse will be one of the choices, what should I go with for the other? High West Double Rye is on a crazy sale right now but I know it's got a very unique profile that might not be good for people new to rye. Would Bulleit Rye be a better choice? Or go hard and get Templeton?
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Feb 22, 2014 10:01
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Rittenhouse is awesome, but it's pretty intense and could possibly be overwhelming for an inexperienced drinker. Maybe pair it with something on the other end of the rye spectrum that is a lot softer and sweeter, like Sazerac 6 so that people who can't handle the Rittenhouse still have something delicious? I've never tried the High West Double Rye but Templeton is always good and Old Overholt is basic but not bad. Something else that you could possibly do is just choose one rye and one bourbon. Doing that would really give people a sense of how different the two are, especially if you contrast the Rittenhouse with a wheated brand like Weller or or Larceny, which are both really good and relatively inexpensive.
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Feb 23, 2014 00:16
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Chuck Biscuits posted:Rittenhouse is awesome, but it's pretty intense and could possibly be overwhelming for an inexperienced drinker. Maybe pair it with something on the other end of the rye spectrum that is a lot softer and sweeter, like Sazerac 6 so that people who can't handle the Rittenhouse still have something delicious? I've never tried the High West Double Rye but Templeton is always good and Old Overholt is basic but not bad. On the one hand, anyone who dislikes Rittenhouse is a bad person who is also a terrorist that hates America. On the other, it is intense and I see your point. I think I'll go with Templeton and a bourbon as per your suggestion. So tempted to roll with OGD 100,because goddamn does it make a fine drink.
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Feb 23, 2014 01:40
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Roll with the 114, never look back.
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Feb 23, 2014 02:09
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I bought the OGD 114 a couple weeks ago based on Kenning's recommendation and it's really good, especially for only $26. It's hard to believe that something with that much muscle behind it has so little bite. I don't even feel like it needs water when drinking it neat and it makes a killer Old Fashioned. Was in SF yesterday and bought some Nocino at Cask to make the 'Frank Lloyd Wright' that I had at Bourbon and Branch. 2 oz bourbon 0.5 oz pear liqueur 1 barspoon Islay Scotch 1 barspoon Nocino 2 dash bitters stir/strain/lemon twist Pretty good stuff. I like the way the smoke plays with the pear and think that I may try substituting the pear for some Marie Brizard peach or apricot next time. Also curious to see how it tastes if I just use some Fee's walnut bitters instead of the Nocino.
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Feb 23, 2014 02:51
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Kenning posted:Roll with the 114, never look back. I'm going to try that next. Does it do well in a cocktail? I'm working my way through a bottle of Evan Williams Bottled in Bond now. Compared to OGD 100, it's a sweeter bourbon with more emphasis on vanilla and caramel. I found OGD to have more of a prominent wood and char note, and a drier finish. Even though they are both 100 proof I found the EW to have a little more heat on the palate too. This isn't to say that EW is ultra sweet and flabby, just sweeter than OGD. They are both fine bourbons that taste far better than their price would indicate. I slightly prefer OGD for the dry finish, but I would buy each again without hesitation. Edit: fine I'll get a bottle of 114
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Feb 23, 2014 03:38
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You gotta man. I like bourbon fine, but my favorite whiskey is rye, then Scotch, then bourbon, then Irish. OGD 114 has the fullness and spice of a rye in my mind, without losing that punch of corn-and-honey sweetness that makes bourbon so distinctive. I think it has overtaken WT 101 as my favorite bourbon.
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Feb 23, 2014 07:30
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Halloween Jack posted:If you like whiskey or amaretto sours, you can use that to stiffen them and replace some of the sugar. I indeed do. Thanks for the tip! Also, I really miss J.T.S. Brown 100 BiB. Made by Heaven Hill, it was one of the best cheap Bourbons I've ever had. The Ohio Bureau of Liquor control took it off the master liquor list last year, due to poor sales, which means It'll never be sold here again. It made a great Old Fashioned or Whisky Sour.  I can still get 80 proof J.T.S. Brown, which is horrible swill that makes Old Crow look like Pappy Van Winkle in comparison. The 100 Proof BiB version was a totally different animal, and I miss it dearly. MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 09:43 on Feb 23, 2014 |
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Feb 23, 2014 09:26
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Chuck Biscuits posted:Was in SF yesterday and bought some Nocino at Cask to make the 'Frank Lloyd Wright' that I had at Bourbon and Branch. I tried to go to Bourbon and Branch last weekend, but I'm not making a reservation to go to a bar, and I don't want to be in a bar where everyone has reservations (a bar full of couples is useless to me). I tried the Library part where you can just walk in... inside I stood in a line for about 20 minutes that didn't move, then went back across the street to Tradition instead, another bar from the same owners. Not sure why B&B is so stuck up, I didn't even see any particularly special bottles behind their bar.
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Feb 25, 2014 02:58
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They were revolutionary back in like '07 when they opened but man speakeasies are done to death. Also the whole upscale bar scene in San Francisco is pretty unbearable lately. I've stopped going to Smuggler's Cove very often because it's just not fun at all for like the first 45 minutes before you snag a seat. I'm gonna just blame the tech people cause it's easy.
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Feb 25, 2014 04:56
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I agree that the speakeasy thing is kinda cheesy, but it has a nice atmosphere once you get seated and some really good drinks, so I'm willing to overlook it. I'm going back to SF in April and plan on going to Tradition and some other non-speakeasy places. Did you have anything at Tradition that was especially good?
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Feb 25, 2014 05:58
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Dumb bar poo poo like that is exactly why I drink at home. Screw douchebag bar tenders and owners, there is nothing that they can make that I can't provided I have a recipe. I'm also old, married and have a ton of kids, so my tolerance for poo poo like that is practically nonexistent anyway.
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Feb 25, 2014 06:23
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MullardEL34 posted:I can still get 80 proof J.T.S. Brown, which is horrible swill that makes Old Crow look like Pappy Van Winkle in comparison. The 100 Proof BiB version was a totally different animal, and I miss it dearly.
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Feb 25, 2014 08:16
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rxcowboy posted:I've decided to focus on one spirit : Rye. Yo get some Old Overholt/Michter's/Widow Jane. You could try making something like these: Slippery Slope - 2.5oz rye, .75oz cherry liqueur, .5oz Cynar. Stir/coupe/orange peel. Monte Carlo - 2oz rye, .5oz Benedictine, 2 dashes Angostura bitters. Stir/coupe.
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Feb 25, 2014 17:38
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Halloween Jack posted:Old Crow is the only whiskey I've ever had that honestly tasted better on its way back up. I would rather drink lukewarm vermouth. You trippin, son. Old Crow owns, especially if you get yourself and whomever is doing shots with you to caw repeatedly.
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Feb 25, 2014 20:26
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Chuck Biscuits posted:I agree that the speakeasy thing is kinda cheesy, but it has a nice atmosphere once you get seated and some really good drinks, so I'm willing to overlook it. I'm going back to SF in April and plan on going to Tradition and some other non-speakeasy places. Did you have anything at Tradition that was especially good? They made a good old fashioned and sazerac. Of course you can get those drinks anywhere, but they do their own extra-aging, which is pretty cool. Like, they take a small barrel and fill it with bitters, then dump the bitters, stick some Wild Turkey in the barrel, and let it age for a bit. Worth a try. Prices at Tradition were pretty reasonable for an SF bar too. I like whiskey places... Rickhouse is also worth checking out. They had their own single barrel of Four Roses. 
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Feb 26, 2014 04:20
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Trick Dog, y'all. Get involved.
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Feb 26, 2014 17:47
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rxcowboy posted:Dumb bar poo poo like that is exactly why I drink at home. Screw douchebag bar tenders and owners, there is nothing that they can make that I can't provided I have a recipe. I think the best thing about the whole cocktail revolution and the proliferation of places like B&B is the degree to which it has trickled down. My neighborhood bar has a chill vibe, a taco truck parked outside, a shuffleboard table, and phenomenal cocktails. That would not have been true 10-12 years ago. Vegetable Melange posted:You trippin, son. Old Crow owns, especially if you get yourself and whomever is doing shots with you to caw repeatedly. The first cocktail I ever drank was an Old Crow Old Fashioned. It holds a special place in my heart for that reason alone.
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Feb 26, 2014 22:25
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Turns out last words are delicious. However, I am not a gin person at all. So, what's the cheapest gin I can buy that will still make a good last word?
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Feb 27, 2014 16:44
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door Door door posted:Turns out last words are delicious. However, I am not a gin person at all. So, what's the cheapest gin I can buy that will still make a good last word? Swap out the gin for whiskey and make it a final word! I like rye whiskeys in mine.
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Feb 27, 2014 17:02
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door Door door posted:Turns out last words are delicious. However, I am not a gin person at all. So, what's the cheapest gin I can buy that will still make a good last word?
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Feb 27, 2014 17:07
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Plus it has a little hat!
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Feb 27, 2014 17:12
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A pox of a thousand years on anyone who orders a gin based cocktail but ummm I don't like gin can you make that with vodka instead
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Feb 27, 2014 20:33
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nrr posted:A pox of a thousand years on anyone who orders a gin based cocktail but ummm I don't like gin can you make that with vodka instead Any time I've ordered a gin drink that's not a gin and tonic, I have to say gin, because the default anymore seems to be vodka. It's annoying as poo poo.
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Feb 27, 2014 20:37
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Why bother getting a drink with vodka at all? It has no flavour unless it's flavoured poo poo, or low quality.
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Feb 27, 2014 20:44
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Horn posted:Swap out the gin for whiskey and make it a final word! I like rye whiskeys in mine. Strictly speaking this isn't true because a Final Ward is made with lemon but a Last Word is with lime. Personally I think rye works just fine with line as evidenced by the Derby, but just keep this in mind.
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Feb 27, 2014 20:55
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bunnyofdoom posted:Why bother getting a drink with vodka at all? It has no flavour unless it's flavoured poo poo, or low quality. Well, this isn't actually true, vodka has a wide variety of subtle flavours depending on ingredients, water source, filtration method etc etc and vodka definitely has its place. Just that that place is not a gin cocktail that is specifically designed and balanced with the botanicals and aromatics of a gin in mind.
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Feb 27, 2014 21:02
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nrr posted:Well, this isn't actually true, vodka has a wide variety of subtle flavours depending on ingredients, water source, filtration method etc etc and vodka definitely has its place. Just that that place is not a gin cocktail that is specifically designed and balanced with the botanicals and aromatics of a gin in mind. Ok, fair point. I did get a really nice couple vodkas from the Las Vegas Distillery (Link). What I should have said is "Most cocktails featuring Vodka would benefit more from Gin due to the fact they use bog-standard vodkas with no flavour, or the subtle flavour of good vodka is often lost"
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Feb 27, 2014 21:13
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"I have juniper and citrus-infused vodka, or I have caraway and dill-infused vodka. May I make you something with one of those?" /cocktology
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Feb 27, 2014 21:28
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By and large, vodka is popular because most people ordering liquor just want to get hammered, not appreciate a good cocktail. "Craft cocktail" menus are infested with flavoured vodka because those same people want to get hammered by drinking Kool-Aid. It's just the way it is.
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Feb 27, 2014 21:28
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rxcowboy posted:Strictly speaking this isn't true because a Final Ward is made with lemon but a Last Word is with lime. Personally I think rye works just fine with line as evidenced by the Derby, but just keep this in mind. This sounds right up my alley. And the last word is great because the chartreuse balances out the gin. Just can't stand gin neat. e: nrr posted:A pox of a thousand years on anyone who orders a gin based cocktail but ummm I don't like gin can you make that with vodka instead I have to imagine this is partly due to the fact that now anything served in a cocktail glass is a 'martini.' door Door door fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Feb 27, 2014 |
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Feb 27, 2014 21:30
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Vegetable Melange posted:"I have juniper and citrus-infused vodka, or I have caraway and dill-infused vodka. May I make you something with one of those?" Haha I don't know why I've never tried this. Probably because I wouldn't be able to pull it off with a straight, sincere face and slip into sarcastic as gently caress, bitter rear end in a top hat territory and get fired.
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Feb 27, 2014 21:40
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I checked out Trick Dog's menu and it sounds pretty wild. Definitely gonna have to check that out next time I'm in SF. Just made one of these: 1 oz Rittenhouse bonded 1 oz Lairds Bonded Apple Brandy 1 oz Carpano 0.25 oz Benedictine 2 dash Fees Black Walnut Bitters Basically an herbal variation of a Corpse Reviver #1, with a some dry walnut notes and extra spice from the rye. I like it a lot. The apple brandy, walnut and vanilla from the Carpano all come together into a good fall/winter drink that reminds me of Thanksgiving.
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Feb 28, 2014 04:50
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door Door door posted:Turns out last words are delicious. However, I am not a gin person at all. So, what's the cheapest gin I can buy that will still make a good last word? Use Bombay Dry (not Sapphire) and buy it by the handle. ~$20 gets you a lot of very respectable gin. nrr posted:Well, this isn't actually true, vodka has a wide variety of subtle flavours depending on ingredients, water source, filtration method etc etc and vodka definitely has its place. Just that that place is not a gin cocktail that is specifically designed and balanced with the botanicals and aromatics of a gin in mind. In the United States vodka is legally defined as "without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color." Almost all modern vodkas are distilled in column stills to about 95% abv, at which point the water and ethanol form an azeotrope and can't be easily separated. That leaves 5% of the total volume of the batch with the potential for flavor compounds which were present in the wash (i.e. the ingredients). Few decent vodkas are distilled fewer than 3 times, and some prestige brands as many as 5. After 3 distillations you are left with .0125% of the batch possibly containing any flavor compounds at all – after five runs, .00003125%. That means residual wash in Grey Goose is about 3 parts per million. That's less than the chlorine or the fluoride in your drinking water. These are then finished off with charcoal filtration (or in some craft vodkas, reverse osmosis). Vodka production is 100% designed to produce a liquor that is as palatable as possible without having any flavor at all. Perhaps (perhaps) there are palates sufficiently refined and vodkas sufficiently rarefied for there to be an appreciable flavor in your drink. But if so, there is no mixing ingredient that is subtle enough to allow those flavors to shine beside it. It just becomes extra boozy ingredient X. When tasting vodka you are tasting the quality of the water they cut it with, along with the inherent flavor of ethanol (which is a vaguely sweet, somewhat flabby taste). This is somewhat less true of very traditional Polish or Russian vodka makers, but those spirits are pretty darn rare outside of local markets.
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Feb 28, 2014 09:04
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Kenning posted:Vodka production is 100% designed to produce a liquor that is as palatable as possible without having any flavor at all. Perhaps (perhaps) there are palates sufficiently refined and vodkas sufficiently rarefied for there to be an appreciable flavor in your drink. But if so, there is no mixing ingredient that is subtle enough to allow those flavors to shine beside it. It just becomes extra boozy ingredient X. When tasting vodka you are tasting the quality of the water they cut it with, along with the inherent flavor of ethanol (which is a vaguely sweet, somewhat flabby taste). Belvedere for instance, being a rye vodka has a hint of spice or pepper on the finish that is quite typical of a rye spirit. Belvedere pays a lot of money for it's Dankowski Gold Rye and are very proud of the flavor it imparts on their vodka. Likewise I've heard the global brand ambassador for Russian Standard and Imperia scoff at the notion that vodka has or should have no flavor. He too is very proud of the aroma of fresh baked bread that his wheat vodka imparts. They also have another product coming to north America soon - Russian Standard Platinum, which has a little hint of creamy sweetness to it - that has a distinctly different flavor in comparative taste tests he had us do with the regular Russian Standard. The only real difference between the two vodkas is the silver nitrate filtration method used for the Platinum. Ketel One's charcoal filtration process lingers and leaves a subtle yet delicious (to me) charred, slightly smoky flavor. I have a vodka from Ukraine that is filtered through ginger root to remove congeners and it too leaves a unique subtle something that adds a touch of sweetness and just the tiniest hint of that fresh ginger zing. I could go on and on but the point is that while the flavours in vodka are subtle and easy to overlook, they are many and varied. Like I mentioned in my last post, they can be derived from a number of different factors such as the ingredients used, the size and type of still, the filtration method and the water source. You can run as many numbers as you want to claim that only .00003125% of any flavor can still be present but a simple comparative taste test between a couple of different vodkas can easily put that to bed. If you don't trust your palate is refined enough, then keep the vodkas in the freezer for a couple of hours to minimalize the alcohol burn and exaggerate the unique flavor profiles of each but you'll notice that once you pick the flavours out when chilled, you'll be able to find them later at room temperature as well. Now when it comes to cocktails and mixing complex drinks, are these flavours going to be strong enough to hold their own? Of course not. Pretty much the only time you're going to be able to tell is in a vodka martini. (Maaaybe you could make an arguement that you could pick a potato vodka over a wheat vodka in the right drink, but there's no way you could get down to picking the difference between different brands) I do find some vodkas suit a martini with a twist over olives, and some people are stoked to just sip on vodka with the right garnish. It's definitely not a substitute for gin, but vodka absoloutely has it's place and it definitely is not completely flavourless or odourless, nor is it designed to be. Many vodkas have their own unique and distinct flavours, even if they are subtle and easy to ignore and more and more vodkas are being designed and marketed to be drunk without being mixed at all so that you can enjoy the particular characteristics of each one. sorry Kenning, I'm off sick tonight and bored and pissed off at the world so you get the "nuh uhh!" treatment.
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Feb 28, 2014 10:10
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No worries man, I know you're a professional, and you know your product. I'm just making an argument for the cocktail thread. Also, I 100% agree that vodkas vary in quality and there's a reason to choose one over the other. Sobieski for example, as a rye vodka, is leaps and bounds better than comparably-priced poo poo like Smirnoff. It's just that I don't bother with that when I'm making the anti-vodka argument. Hope you feel better.
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Mar 1, 2014 11:00
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The problem here, kittens, is that you're both correct. It all matters about the style of distillation, and vodka is the least controlled category after rum (which is anything distilled from sugar: I had a friend congratulate the guys at Willet on their "excellent corn rum", which they did not find as funny as did we). So much of the distinctions in "super premium vodka" are added after the fact, like glycerine or essential oils, where a less-refined vodka like karlssons' has a distinct sense of terroir from crop to crop. Then there are your straightforward "added water to neutral grain spirit what up" guys that are marketed as premium...that, I find a little more disingenuous. At one bar I work, we offer an inexpensive polish vodka and a domestic premium one. For one lady who claimed she could tell the difference between vodkas, I offered a double blind taste test. She instantly favored one, said it was the polish vodka because she could tell it was potato (it was distilled from rye). I told her I'd mixed the two together in both shots, then I bought her a drink. There is a very important place for vodka in cocktails, I believe. Because it is the single largest spirit category, there are a number of people who will be willing to try more adventurous flavors as long as the first ingredient on the menu is "something-infused vodka", a chance to play with a wider palate without turning people off. It's a chef's dream because it's a neutral canvas, the tofu of the spirit world. Anybody who has had to deal with a chef or bean counter as managing partners will quickly realize that the versatility and affordability of vodka makes it our friend when trying to create new and interesting drinks while meeting the bottom line. The thing about cocktail is that it's expensive with a thin profit margin and a lot of expenditures on juice and other perishables. While we may care about cocktails and do it for the love as bartenders, cash is still king, and we must supplicate ourselves and wash its dirty feet if we want to keep going. Full disclosure: I'm on retainer for a distillery that produces vodka.
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Mar 1, 2014 18:20
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This kindle book is free today. It's just loving awful, from what I've skimmed so far, but it's free. Cocktails: A Beginners Guide to Making Classic and Contemporary Cocktails at Home
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Mar 3, 2014 20:38
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Very Strange Things posted:This kindle book is free today. It's just loving awful, from what I've skimmed so far, but it's free. Cocktails: A Beginners Guide to Making Classic and Contemporary Cocktails at Home Why would you recommend it then? Also here are a selection of "contemporary cocktails" from the book preview that jumped out at me. quote:Widow's Kiss I'm pretty sure these are all in the Savoy Cocktail Book and much more classic than some of the classic cocktails suggested like the Woo-Woo, Sex on the Beach, and Strawberry Daiquiri.
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Mar 3, 2014 20:45
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I only ever hear the differences in vodkas touted by people trying to justify spending too much money on vodka.
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Mar 3, 2014 20:52
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