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Boxn posted:I'm not a shill for the company, but to answer your question it's the quality. In the long run Ultrapros are bad and only good for sealed or draft play from my experience. I've had the Hyper Mattes since they came out, and I haven't had a problem with them yet. I've heard good stuff in general about them in general, and if/when I decide to actually spend money on Magic, I don't think I could resist double-sleeving when the value goes significantly higher than "Whatever I got from the Commander 2013 precons". The quantity of 80 does bug me, and Dragon Shields are much more easily available (my LGS doesn't carry KMC), but the videos were pretty informative. And yeah, Ultra Pro is generally not a good choice for long-term use. A 100-pack of Dragon Shields in my LGS costs about as much as 150 Ultra Pro sleeves, so at that price it's a pretty good deal from what I understand.
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Mar 3, 2014 23:45
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Serperoth posted:I've heard good stuff in general about them in general, and if/when I decide to actually spend money on Magic, I don't think I could resist double-sleeving when the value goes significantly higher than "Whatever I got from the Commander 2013 precons". The quantity of 80 does bug me, and Dragon Shields are much more easily available (my LGS doesn't carry KMC), but the videos were pretty informative. I think it'd be good if you bought a case of them, from that Potomac Distribution, 80 is fine for Constructed though, although I can understand the case with EDH.
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Mar 3, 2014 23:58
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I went to FNM and gameday on Saturday, this is my second week back into "competitive magic". Im playing Maze's End, and a build close to Torres' build that he took to day 2 of that last GP. FNM - 22 players, 4 rounds with a cut to top 8. Rd1 vs. Born of the Gods event deck (2-1). He brought the thunder game 1, I could only find 1 fog, and he had me by turn 4. The other 2 games, I brough my crackling perimeter and extra merciless evictions in from the side. Almost no contest. Rd2. vs UW Control (0-2). I was playing against the best dude in the shop, even though I know I should have the match, he just out plays me. We end up going drat near to time on the second match. Also, ended up not drawing enough land both games, never see a Maze. Rd3. vs. R/G Monsters (2-0). The deck went off beautifully both games, almost wasn't even a contest. Rd4. vs. RDW (1-1-1). I grinded him out and got a Maze for the win game 1. I should have won game 2, but I made a huge misplay and forgot to play my Maze for the turn when i went and got my 9th gate out, I would have won the next round if I hadn't forgot that. We proceed to go to time on round 3. I manage to sneak into the top 8 with a record of 2-1-1, but then get paired against the guy from Rd2. I get housed 0-2, proceed to take my pack and go home. Gameday - 22 players, 5 rounds, with a cut to top 8. Rd1. vs G/W agro (0-2). Mana screw both games, I see 3 lands each game. Nothing much else to say. Rd2. vs RDW (0-2). He came out really fast both games. I had more mana screw and couldn't draw into fogs either game, got trounced pretty handily ( I usually have a really good matchup against rdw ). Rd3. vs BYE. I drink a Dr. Pepper, call my girlfriend and smoke some cigs. Rd4. vs 9 year old with a 80 card deck (2-0). Despite the fact my deck hit the ground running on all cylinders, I still beat a 9 year old with a stack of cards. I won both games in 20 minutes. Rd5. vs WW (2-1). I manage to stabilize at 1 life game 1, then get my Maze activated for the win. Game 2 I cant draw enough fogs to stop his onslaught, he takes it. Game 3, we had 8 minutes left on the clock. I play the fastest game with turbofog I have ever played. I Manage to draw into 9 gates and see almost all my fog, but no Maze. We end up going to turns and I get a Supreme Verdict on turn 1, then a Maze on turn 3, I win turn 5. I yet again manage to sneak into top 8 with a record of 3-2. I then get beat (0-2) by Mono Red Devotion. I came close to getting game 1, I just needed 1 more turn to activate Maze for the win. But he brings in Skull Crack from the sideboard to make game 2 a breeze for him. I take my Pain Seer, Kiorra's follower and my pack and go home. jhorphear fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 00:41
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Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:And yet despite being able to print new cards and get money from the sales, they seem extremely skittish to do this in anything but the safest tests i.e. Modern Masters having a supply of Not Much, as though a lurch downwards in the secondary market would cause the game to collapse, despite the majority of players not needing these? Because the last time they did an all reprint set it went really badly, badly enough to scare them off of it for a long time.
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Mar 4, 2014 01:30
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Literally The Worst posted:Because the last time they did an all reprint set it went really badly, badly enough to scare them off of it for a long time. That was nearly 20 years ago. Maybe it's possible to try again while learning from past mistakes and all?
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Mar 4, 2014 02:02
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It has nothing to do with Chronicles, heavily re-printing tournament staples isn't in their interests. They want to keep standard as the king of the pile, they make lots of money selling new product, and including cards like Tarmogoyf, aren't the slam dunk increase in sales tournament players assume. So instead of giving in to a tiny minority of their customers, and doing something that offends another small group of collectors, won't really increase their sales, and threatens the stability of their popular cash-cow format, they choose to release re-prints slowly, over time. Like they've said multiple times. EDIT: And for the inevitable response of "well yeah but they could reprint more without hurting themselves" that's true but their production model isn't really capable of responding to the needs of their player group with any sort of immediacy, they are responding to situations 1 sometimes 2 years after the fact. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 02:13 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 02:07
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Every playable modern rare being $15-40 would have a huge danger of slowing the tournament attendance that they've been pushing Modern so hard for. Spoilers: the Event Deck is going to be Five Color Control with all the good stuff thrown in Kasonic fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 02:14
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qbert posted:That was nearly 20 years ago. Maybe it's possible to try again while learning from past mistakes and all? They did, Modern Masters went well. Almost certain to be another one. Probably be a little less limited too. Takes 12ish months to develop a set and the summer 2014 product slot was already taken by Conspiracy. CYA in 2015.
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Mar 4, 2014 02:14
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I don't think Chronicles is really much of a consideration any more other than the fact it spawned the reserve list. Players who were around back then are a tiny, tiny minority at this point.
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Mar 4, 2014 02:16
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Kasonic posted:Every playable modern rare being $15-40 would have a huge danger of slowing the tournament attendance that they've been pushing Modern so hard for. I don't like the prices either, but when the blue fetches have doubled in price this year, and attendance for the first modern GP has broken every record other than GP Vegas, I don't think that price is holding back tournament attendance. If anything the people who own these cards are dying to play them. The problem is more people want them so the price is through the roof because that's what it takes to pry a set of fetches out of someones hands, not because Star City are greedy fucks.
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Mar 4, 2014 02:17
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Kasonic posted:Every playable modern rare being $15-40 would have a huge danger of slowing the tournament attendance that they've been pushing Modern so hard for. They've been saying that about Legacy for years and still Legacy GP's get bigger and bigger. Wizards isn't concerned with Modern having a barrier to entry, they want to create an opportunity to keep players involved who are maybe sick of grinding standard rotation after rotation, but aren't into Legacy. They aren't ever going to go to great lengths to make Modern easily accessible, because it would threaten standard. That's not to say today's prices will be a long standing norm, but Modern will never be cheap, ever. Entropic posted:I don't think Chronicles is really much of a consideration any more other than the fact it spawned the reserve list. Players who were around back then are a tiny, tiny minority at this point. The reserve list is a lovely excuse but the reality is that keeping the eternal formats inaccessible makes standard, the cash cow, the most appealing format. You can be sure if there is ever a moment where reprinting the Power 9 would fall in line with Wizards business strategy they'd abolish the reserve list in a heartbeat. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 02:21
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I think I'm quite bitter because I'm effectively being priced out of the game. Oh well, technically more money for stuff that matters.
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Mar 4, 2014 02:23
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If its any consolation standard and limited will continue to be the center of organized play and you'll be able to enjoy lots of Magic for years to come without having to deal with the barrier to entry to Modern.
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Mar 4, 2014 02:27
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For those who care, I'm currently streaming the premier 64-man draft on MODO. https://www.twitch.tv/worldforgers I haven't streamed in a while. Be gentle!
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Mar 4, 2014 02:35
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Entropic posted:I don't think Chronicles is really much of a consideration any more other than the fact it spawned the reserve list. Players who were around back then are a tiny, tiny minority at this point. It's not just about players though, and Forsythe explicitly cited Chronicles as part of their decision to make MMA a small print run.
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Mar 4, 2014 03:40
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That is stupid then. Everyone loved chronicles except for a handful of people hoarding a pile of mostly terrible cards. They were toxic to the game anyway. Chronicles sold a gagillion packs because it was extremely well loved for how awesome of a gesture it was.
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Mar 4, 2014 03:47
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toadee posted:That is stupid then. Everyone loved chronicles except for a handful of people hoarding a pile of mostly terrible cards. They were toxic to the game anyway. Chronicles sold a gagillion packs because it was extremely well loved for how awesome of a gesture it was. Right. The reserved list was just some draconian restriction they placed on themselves due to all the love of Chronicles. Totally makes sense.
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Mar 4, 2014 03:57
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toadee posted:That is stupid then. Everyone loved chronicles except for a handful of people hoarding a pile of mostly terrible cards. A handful of people, stores, whatever.
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Mar 4, 2014 03:57
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Yay! This argument again!
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Mar 4, 2014 04:00
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ScarletBrother posted:Yay! This argument again! With bonus, completely wrong talking points too. My favorite.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:01
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Rules question! I'm not sure what rule affects this scenario. I'm playing against jund. they t1 fetch, thoughtseize, t2 goyf. I t2 orzhov charm goyf. Do we go with last know information and I take 3? Or does state based effects look at p/t like if you bolt it and I take 4?
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Mar 4, 2014 04:33
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jassi007 posted:Rules question! I'm not sure what rule affects this scenario. I'm playing against jund. they t1 fetch, thoughtseize, t2 goyf. I t2 orzhov charm goyf. Do we go with last know information and I take 3? Or does state based effects look at p/t like if you bolt it and I take 4? Charm doesn't hit the yard until it resolves, right?
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Mar 4, 2014 04:36
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Balon posted:Charm doesn't hit the yard until it resolves, right? Right, but this is where i get confused about checking state based actions vs. last known information. I'm not sure which rule is in effect. For the above example, if you bolt the 2/3 goyf, he takes 3, but when we check state based actions after bolt resolves, he's a 3/4 with 3 damage, doesn't die.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:37
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The real problem here isn't Orzhov Charm hitting the graveyard. Its the Goyf hitting the graveyard, as he would be the first creature and increase its own toughness in the graveyard. The game will check Goyf's PT before the charm hits the yard regardless, because Orzhov charm isn't put into the graveyard until every (relevant) line of text on Orzhov charm finishes resolving. I want to say that this is last known information, and you would take 3.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:41
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jassi007 posted:Right, but this is where i get confused about checking state based actions vs. last known information. I'm not sure which rule is in effect. For the above example, if you bolt the 2/3 goyf, he takes 3, but when we check state based actions after bolt resolves, he's a 3/4 with 3 damage, doesn't die. Right, but Orzhov Charm doesn't cause it to die due to a state-based effect, it's just killing it. Orzhov Charm kills it, then makes you lose the life, and only then does the Charm finish resolving and hit the graveyard.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:43
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edit: i might be completely talking out of my rear end, ask a judge: chat.magicjudges.org
Mouth Ze Dong fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 04:46
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jassi007 posted:Right, but this is where i get confused about checking state based actions vs. last known information. I'm not sure which rule is in effect. For the above example, if you bolt the 2/3 goyf, he takes 3, but when we check state based actions after bolt resolves, he's a 3/4 with 3 damage, doesn't die. The only reason Bolt and Goyf interact awkwardly is because SBA need to be checked to see if Lethal damage has been assigned to a creature before we place it into the graveyard. It sounds trivial but in the mechanics of the game that needs to happen and its only because we stop to check that we have a moment to go "Oh wait, Tarmogoyfs toughness is now 4 because bolt is in the yard" That's not the case with a creature destroyed by Orzhov Charm or any other effect that uses the keyword "Destroy". At no point during the resolution of the second mode is there a need to stop and check anything, you simply use Last Known Information. In this case 3. Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 04:57 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 04:53
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I hate goyf.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:17
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I don't see why there's any need to invoke Last Known Information in this case anyway. The destruction happens during resolution of the Charm. The Charm is not put in the graveyard until it's done resolving. By the time the Charm goes into a graveyard, the destroy effect has already taken place, and the Goyf was either a legal target at that point, or it wasn't. The problem with Lightning Bolt in the comparable example is that even though we think of lethal burn as essentially being a kill spell, the killing doesn't actually occur during spell resolution. The spell resolves, puts 3 damage on the Goyf, hits the bin. Now a player is about to get priority, so we check SBAs and see if there are any creatures with damage > their toughness, and as it turns out, by the time you check, there aren't! e: I really garbled this message, Jabor put it better JerryLee fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 05:18
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But Goyf's power and toughness are constant in all zones, so when he enters the graveyard, he boosts his own toughness, meaning Orzhov Charm either deals damage as goyf's toughness was when the spell began resolution (3), or deals damage as goyf's toughness is as he sits in the graveyard (4). Gatherer rulings to the rescue: "If you choose the second mode, you'll lose life equal to the creature's toughness when it was last on the battlefield." You take 3 Mouth Ze Dong fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 05:25
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JerryLee posted:I don't see why there's any need to invoke Last Known Information in this case anyway. The destruction happens during resolution of the Charm. The Charm is not put in the graveyard until it's done resolving. By the time the Charm goes into a graveyard, the destroy effect has already taken place, and the Goyf was either a legal target at that point, or it wasn't. Since the target of the Charm is destroyed and in the graveyard by the time you lose life equal to its toughness, you do (in most cases) need to use LKI to figure out what that value is. It's not especially relevant that LKI is being used though, since in this case there's no meaningful difference in the game state between the start of the spell's resolution, and the last moment that the creature is on the battlefield.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:27
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End of Life Guy posted:But Goyf's power and toughness are constant in all zones, so when he enters the graveyard, he boosts his own toughness, meaning Orzhov Charm either deals damage as goyf's toughness was when the spell began resolution (3), or deals damage as goyf's toughness is as he sits in the graveyard (4). Its 3. You use LKI, like if a creature had +1+1 counters, the Charm would use that value, not whatever value it has in its graveyard. If a creature was likewise enchanted or equipped, you would use that value as well. EDIT: To explain why this is more thoroughly. When a permanent changes zones, it becomes a new permanent with no memory or connection to its previous existence, there are a few zone following effects, but they are relatively rare and easily distinguished. So when an effect needs to reference the characteristics of a permanent that has changed zones, it instead uses last known information, a sort of snap-shot of what the permanent looked like last. In this example Charm destroys the Tarmogoyf, but its second effect can't follow it to the graveyard and check its P/T, so it uses last known information. Comprehensive Rules posted:400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence Ciprian Maricon fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 05:35
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Stinky Pit posted:That's not to say today's prices will be a long standing norm, but Modern will never be cheap, ever. Almost exactly this. The reason Modern is so expensive is because the format goes back to a time when the game was much smaller. The print runs back then just weren't that large compared to how many people are playing the game now, so any card from the Mirrodin-Zendikar era is going to spike hard under any real demand. Scars block cards are just beginning to fall under that umbrella now. Simply put, if any budget (and in Modern this means only a few hundred bucks) deck comes along that actually puts up real results, the market is not going to allow that deck to stay cheap unless it's made almost entirely of currently or recently Standard legal cards, or of commons and uncommons that no other deck is interested in. The only way (within reason) this changes is if Magic enters another bust phase and starts shedding players to the point that singles prices fall across the board.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:39
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Jabor posted:Since the target of the Charm is destroyed and in the graveyard by the time you lose life equal to its toughness, you do (in most cases) need to use LKI to figure out what that value is. Right, this is what I was getting at, but in retrospect I said it really poorly. Sorry. 
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Mar 4, 2014 05:42
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A spell doesn't hit the yard until it is fully resolved, correct? So if I use genesis wave for whatever X, it won't go to the graveyard until I am done laying out all permanents then? Basically I'm trying to get clarification on how it would work with eternal witness. When the witness comes in off of wave, is the wave already in the yard as a valid target for witness?
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Mar 4, 2014 05:49
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Fingers McLongDong posted:A spell doesn't hit the yard until it is fully resolved, correct? So if I use genesis wave for whatever X, it won't go to the graveyard until I am done laying out all permanents then? Basically I'm trying to get clarification on how it would work with eternal witness. When the witness comes in off of wave, is the wave already in the yard as a valid target for witness? You wont be able to put Eternal Witness's ability onto the stack until you finish resolving Genesis Wave, so while Genesis Wave isn't in the graveyard while its resolving, by the time you get to place the ETB ability of Eternal Witness on the stack, the card will be in the graveyard and be a legal target for the ability of Eternal Witness.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:51
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Fingers McLongDong posted:A spell doesn't hit the yard until it is fully resolved, correct? So if I use genesis wave for whatever X, it won't go to the graveyard until I am done laying out all permanents then? Basically I'm trying to get clarification on how it would work with eternal witness. When the witness comes in off of wave, is the wave already in the yard as a valid target for witness? I'm pretty sure her ability doesn't go on the stack until Wave is finished resolving, so yes that should work.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:52
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Stinky Pit posted:You wont be able to put Eternal Witness's ability onto the stack until you finish resolving Genesis Wave, so while Genesis Wave isn't in the graveyard while its resolving, by the time you get to place the ETB ability of Eternal Witness on the stack, the card will be in the graveyard and be a legal target for the ability of Eternal Witness. OK thanks, this is how I assumed this cycle would work but with all this stack talk it made me unsure.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:53
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I just had a thought. Why couldn't wizards just reprint some older draft formats with white borders, such as ZZW, package the packs together, and sell them at local game stores? Call them [Block] Draft Revisited, charge something like 15 bucks MSRP, throw in some sort of promo foil into the packaging, and offer the game store some sort of discounted product (in print stuff stamped for promo use only) to use as prize support. It'd give new players the chance to get older cards that are expensive as gently caress, let players that were around then revisit favorite formats, wouldn't require much R&D work, due to being essentially a straight reprint of older sets, and would probably not crater the prices of the original black bordered cards.
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Mar 4, 2014 07:35
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kizudarake posted:I just had a thought. Why couldn't wizards just reprint some older draft formats with white borders, such as ZZW, package the packs together, and sell them at local game stores? Call them [Block] Draft Revisited, charge something like 15 bucks MSRP, throw in some sort of promo foil into the packaging, and offer the game store some sort of discounted product (in print stuff stamped for promo use only) to use as prize support. It'd give new players the chance to get older cards that are expensive as gently caress, let players that were around then revisit favorite formats, wouldn't require much R&D work, due to being essentially a straight reprint of older sets, and would probably not crater the prices of the original black bordered cards. There's no reason they can't do this if we're assuming you're not talking about reprinting sets with reserve list cards in them, but lots of reasons why they won't. A lot of those reasons are related to why they were so skittish about the size of the MMA print run. Retro Drafts are totally a thing on MTGO though. edit: I mean, if the numbers for MMA looked good enough to them I guess they could start considering doing this on paper, but the print runs for most of the sets would have to be pretty limited if you care about maintaining market value for singles and then MSRP gets thrown out the window since these aren't going to box stores. Also they wouldn't be white bordered since they don't do that any more. If this was done in say, 1998 it'd totally be white bordered though. Promoted Pawn fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 07:40
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