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I still don't get how Harbinger, of all things, seemed to strike Bioware as too complicated for new players. The genophage? Not a problem! The Quarian/Geth war? Easily summed up! Cerberus and their barely coherent motivations? Why not! But Harbinger? Here, I'll introduce Harbinger for new players: SHEPARD: poo poo, it's Harbinger. VEGA: Who's Harbinger? I am a stand-in for a new player, and don't understand this! SHEPARD: Boss reaper. We've dealt with him before. VEGA: Oh. That was simple.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:01
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Angry Salami posted:I still don't get how Harbinger, of all things, seemed to strike Bioware as too complicated for new players. The genophage? Not a problem! The Quarian/Geth war? Easily summed up! Cerberus and their barely coherent motivations? Why not! But Harbinger? Harbinger's problem is that he's exactly as dangerous as a Reaper. If he were, say, MORE dangerous than a Reaper, new players would figure him out easily enough. He'd also need to be in an award-winning series of expanded universe novels.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:08
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I think it would have been cool for Arrival to be ME1 dlc and that's why you end up having to work with Cerberus (no one really trusts you anymore) instead of the whole death thing. It would also set up the "drat, reapers are close" thing for all of 2 while still trying to stop them from making a human one. Then they actually come in ME3 and everyone realizes how right you were. You........actually wouldn't have to change that much at all. Meh, I'll stop talking about ideas I have that will never come to fruition now.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:20
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Geostomp posted:Agreed. Bioware had some strange, arbitrary ideas about what would be too intimidating for new players in ME3 and squandered a lot of good potential (that phrase comes up a lot when discussing this game, huh?). Finally having Shepard show some uncertainty at TIM's base when you find the records about being put back together was incredibly nice - it's an enormous pity they didn't try to deal with it earlier in the series. That said, I could also see them going way overboard with it and turning it into a tedious emotional slog.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:22
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Pattonesque posted:Harbinger's problem is that he's exactly as dangerous as a Reaper. If he were, say, MORE dangerous than a Reaper, new players would figure him out easily enough. 
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Mar 4, 2014 04:22
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JawKnee posted:Finally having Shepard show some uncertainty at TIM's base when you find the records about being put back together was incredibly nice - it's an enormous pity they didn't try to deal with it earlier in the series. That said, I could also see them going way overboard with it and turning it into a tedious emotional slog.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:38
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I'd been waiting for this idea to be raised: Mass Effect Trilogy HD Remaster For PS4/Xbox One Being Considered I don't think I'd be interested in a straight port of the trilogy no matter how pretty it looked, but if they took the opportunity to add bonus missions, implement features originally cut for time, etc...well, they'd have my attention.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:43
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I don't know about anybody else but my Shepard NEVER worked for Cerberus. They gave me a ship and I flew straight back to the Citadel, got my Spectre status reinstated, then used that ship to do what I wanted re: the Collector menace. Every so often TIM gave me information about poo poo going on and I acted on it, but he wasn't my Boss and I frequently told him so and refused him access to things he wanted.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:45
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SubponticatePoster posted:They could have kept the beginning of 2 just fine, except after Freedom's Progress you tell Tim no thanks and try to rejoin the Alliance. Alliance doesn't trust you so then you have no choice but to work with Cerberus. Pretty simple to do and then you don't have to handwave away why Shep is working with a rogue black-ops group who experiments on colonists and kills admirals for shits and giggles. You could sort of do this by immediately going to the Citadel to talk to the Council, but they still don't believe you about the Reapers and since they can't take decisive action in the Terminus Systems you kinda have to work with Cerberus. edit: Jerusalem posted:I don't know about anybody else but my Shepard NEVER worked for Cerberus. They gave me a ship and I flew straight back to the Citadel, got my Spectre status reinstated, then used that ship to do what I wanted re: the Collector menace. Every so often TIM gave me information about poo poo going on and I acted on it, but he wasn't my Boss and I frequently told him so and refused him access to things he wanted. Same. My Shepard had the Spacer and Sole Survivor background so he had the perfect combination of "gently caress Cerberus and everything they stand for."
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Mar 4, 2014 04:45
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I would've liked better if their mistrust went as far as not even believing you're really Shepard.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:47
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2house2fly posted:
I orginally played without the EC, and just beat the game again yesterday with the EC. That was the most jarring scene ever. Joker responds to the medevac request with "we're taking heavy losses up here" and literally a split second later the Normandy is loading up hobbling teammates right in front of Harbinger..? So much of what they added on just didn't make sense to me. Did the Citadel explode and break apart in the original ending? It's been so long I couldn't remember. Then again I'm not sure how Shep was surviving in outer space talking to starchild.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:52
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Black_Plague22 posted:I orginally played without the EC, and just beat the game again yesterday with the EC. That was the most jarring scene ever. Joker responds to the medevac request with "we're taking heavy losses up here" and literally a split second later the Normandy is loading up hobbling teammates right in front of Harbinger..? So much of what they added on just didn't make sense to me. ME fields
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Mar 4, 2014 04:56
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Black_Plague22 posted:I orginally played without the EC, and just beat the game again yesterday with the EC. That was the most jarring scene ever. Joker responds to the medevac request with "we're taking heavy losses up here" and literally a split second later the Normandy is loading up hobbling teammates right in front of Harbinger..? So much of what they added on just didn't make sense to me.
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Mar 4, 2014 04:56
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Lycus posted:Couldn't they have just altered the "Normandy wreckage" scene so that neither of the squadmates that step out are the ones that were with you, instead? Probably not as easily as that was a cutscene and already rendered compared to the normandy pickup which was in-game e: and by 'not as easily' I mean no, they would have had to re-do the cutscene VVVV lol VVVVV JawKnee fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 04:57
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JawKnee posted:ME fields Stealth system. 
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Mar 4, 2014 04:58
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I actually think the main issue with Harbinger is that in ME3, the Reaper threat is a massive fleet, not an individual Reaper leading a bunch of mooks (Saren, the Collectors). Having a singular threat doesn't really make that much sense in that scenario- I mean, the image of the Reapers is basically a swarm of locusts. (That's why I really don't think Harbinger is the "leader" in that meaningful of a fashion- because the Reapers collectively come across as an inscrutable force of nature, not an army led by a commander).
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Mar 4, 2014 05:00
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In the original release, doesn't EDI step out on the planet even if you took the Destroy ending which supposedly killed her (it didn't because the Catalyst was lying because it was scared of dying itself).
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Mar 4, 2014 05:03
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I wonder why they even bothered to have it specifically be Harbinger firing at you at the end. Like he didn't talk to you and there was no resolution with him. It's like they just went "oh we spent the last game setting this guy up as the villain right? he should probably do something at the end, I guess."
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Mar 4, 2014 05:03
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Fag Boy Jim posted:I actually think the main issue with Harbinger is that in ME3, the Reaper threat is a massive fleet, not an individual Reaper leading a bunch of mooks (Saren, the Collectors). Having a singular threat doesn't really make that much sense in that scenario- I mean, the image of the Reapers is basically a swarm of locusts. (That's why I really don't think Harbinger is the "leader" in that meaningful of a fashion- because the Reapers collectively come across as an inscrutable force of nature, not an army led by a commander). Not as it stands, no; however if they'd focused on Harbinger in such a way that defeating it in whatever manner would be key to defeating the Reapers then it would have been very central indeed. If, for example, instead of an overarching intelligence located on the Citadel we had Harbinger actually controlling the Reapers. As is there is still an individual 'leading' them - the star-child.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:03
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Jerusalem posted:In the original release, doesn't EDI step out on the planet even if you took the Destroy ending which supposedly killed her (it didn't because the Catalyst was lying because it was scared of dying itself). There are rumors about this but I never actually saw a video of it or anything. And it would just be called a bug if true anyway so who cares?
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Mar 4, 2014 05:04
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JawKnee posted:Not as it stands, no; however if they'd focused on Harbinger in such a way that defeating it in whatever manner would be key to defeating the Reapers then it would have been very central indeed. If, for example, instead of an overarching intelligence located on the Citadel we had Harbinger actually controlling the Reapers. As is there is still an individual 'leading' them - the star-child. That'd... kinda be silly, though. I mean, the ending is silly as it is, but having the Reapers be a conventional "if you defeat the big Reaper all the other Reapers go away" thing would really cheapen them as an existential threat to galactic life. (Maybe not as badly as the conventional war victory, but still.) One of the reasons they're so threatening is that they have no weakness to exploit, or base to attack- they're just a swarm that blows up anything in their path. If you blow one up, who cares, it took you a shitload of resources, and there's thousands more of them to spare. e) the whole "Harbinger was set up as the big bad in ME2" always confuses me, because the big bad that was set up in ME2 was The Reapers. As in, the last scene of the game shows the Reaper fleet massing and moving towards the galaxy. Like, I took from that- "Oh poo poo, the Reapers are invading for ME3", not "Harbinger Versus Shep: This Time It's Personal". I mean, yeah, Harbinger could have shown up as a cameo, but his importance is kind of inevitably diminished by, you know, the thousands of other Reapers that start blowing the poo poo out of everyone. Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 05:07
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Fag Boy Jim posted:That'd... kinda be silly, though. I mean, the ending is silly as it is, but having the Reapers be a conventional "if you defeat the big Reaper all the other Reapers go away" thing would really cheapen them as an existential threat to galactic life. (Maybe not as badly as the conventional war victory, but still.) One of the reasons they're so threatening is that they have no weakness to exploit, or base to attack- they're just a swarm that blows up anything in their path. If you blow one up, who cares, it took you a shitload of resources, and there's thousands more of them to spare. I agree, again as it stands this is all just baseless fantasizing so getting specific is kind of pointless, but just to sketch a scenario: if Harbinger is set up as important it's presumably because it is more powerful than other Reapers/can do something they cannot (directly controlling the collectors from dark space comes to mind), so why not set it up as Harbinger being able to directly control the other reapers somehow? Have the crucible be some fancy rear end tech weapon and you have to choose to sacrifice EDI to get it working or whatever the gently caress. The point is, I think, that one can write an ending that allows for conflict with near immortal godlike beings that doesn't rely on introducing a new near-immortal godlike being right at the end to deal with those other guys.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:12
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Fag Boy Jim posted:As in, the last scene of the game shows the Reaper fleet massing and moving towards the galaxy. Like, I took from that- "Oh poo poo, the Reapers are invading for ME3", not "Harbinger Versus Shep: This Time It's Personal". Harbinger is literally front and center of that shot, though. He's also the first one lit up.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:19
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In Arrival you even get a one on one hologram chat that plays out pretty much exactly like the Sovereign chat in ME1. Does Harbinger even talk in ME3? I don't remember.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:22
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Speaking of the Leviathan DLC, when did we all agree was the best time in ME3 to play it? It's been so long since I've played ME3 I forgot when it makes the most sense to do it.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:23
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It's divided up into manageable junks, so it fits in pretty much anywhere I think. Do one leviathan mission, go back to the plot, then back to leviathan like it ain't no thang.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:23
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Rincewind posted:Speaking of the Leviathan DLC, when did we all agree was the best time in ME3 to play it? It's been so long since I've played ME3 I forgot when it makes the most sense to do it. It's a bunch of separate missions, so just do it when it makes the most sense.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:24
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Milky Moor posted:Harbinger is literally front and center of that shot, though. He's also the first one lit up. I honestly don't care that much about Harbinger, mainly because giving him more lines would probably have been fine, and wouldn't have negatively affected the game in the same way as, say, making a conventional war victory possible would have. I really was just honestly confused as to why people were expecting some big showdown with him (as opposed to a showdown with the Reapers in general). I mean, at the risk of this being a "Why don't you make a better game?" thing, how would you have put him in the story in a more central fashion? Like, to me, it honestly felt like it'd mess with their image of being this huge swarm cleansing the galaxy of developed life. (Besides, you already have TIM, a villain set up in the second game that's much more qualified to monologue at you.)
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Mar 4, 2014 05:33
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Rincewind posted:Speaking of the Leviathan DLC, when did we all agree was the best time in ME3 to play it? It's been so long since I've played ME3 I forgot when it makes the most sense to do it. For me, I start it after the Monastery mission since it introduces the Banshee and the first shooting mission of Leviathan has Banshees in it. Then I do the investigation stuff and missions in between other missions up until Anne Bryson lets herself be controlled to locate Leviathan, then I do Thessia and Sanctuary right after the other since Hackett, post Sanctuary, says something like "I didn't think taking a detour to Sanctuary would turn up anything" like Sheprad should have been looking for Leviathan since the Crucible has hit a dead end due to Cerberus' interference. Then I do the last mission, then the Citadel DlC to give everyone a breather (especially Shepard after his encounter with Leviathan) while the Alliance prepares to take out Cerberus HQ. I also start Omega right after the Cerberus Coup since it's like Shepard's counter-attack to Cerberus. SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 05:42 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 05:35
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I honestly wouldn't have been that crazy about it if they did. Harbinger was a retread of Sovereign in a lot of ways so having another big fight where you kill him would have just been eh. It did seem like they were leading up to that though, which is why his near total disappearance from ME3 was weird, to me.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:39
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Fag Boy Jim posted:I really was just honestly confused as to why people were expecting some big showdown with him (as opposed to a showdown with the Reapers in general).
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Mar 4, 2014 05:41
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JawKnee posted:There are rumors about this but I never actually saw a video of it or anything.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:53
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Fag Boy Jim posted:I honestly don't care that much about Harbinger, mainly because giving him more lines would probably have been fine, and wouldn't have negatively affected the game in the same way as, say, making a conventional war victory possible would have. I really was just honestly confused as to why people were expecting some big showdown with him (as opposed to a showdown with the Reapers in general).
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Mar 4, 2014 06:22
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Milky Moor posted:Harbinger is literally front and center of that shot, though. He's also the first one lit up. I think saying that ignores a lot of the context of that shot. It goes from Joker handing Harbinger's specs, to Harbinger, then expands to encompass an entire fleet. It's pretty clearly not 'oh poo poo, Harbinger's coming'. It's 'oh poo poo, we're not dealing with just one Reaper, or fighting it by proxy anymore'. The DLC bridging 2 and 3 should have killed Harbinger.
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Mar 4, 2014 06:27
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Harbinger just showing up and completely loving up the heroes' plans in silence is one of the better parts of the ending in my book. It's a good reversal of expectations.
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Mar 4, 2014 07:05
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The visual is fantastic, at least.
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Mar 4, 2014 07:20
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It's a really good cutscene- it's a pity that they didn't manage to make some of the different-looking Reaper models in that one. Budget concerns, probably.
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Mar 4, 2014 07:34
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Jerusalem posted:In the original release, doesn't EDI step out on the planet even if you took the Destroy ending which supposedly killed her (it didn't because the Catalyst was lying because it was scared of dying itself). The indoctrination theory chalks up a lot of pure incompetence to writer intent, but Shepard waking up amidst concrete ruins does seem... oddly intentional.
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Mar 4, 2014 09:08
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Xander77 posted:In the extended ending Shepard (apparently) lives, even though Starchild told him he'd be destroyed. I always thought that was a callback to the first game and second game always having you either end up in rubble, or wake up from it.
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Mar 4, 2014 09:12
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Fag Boy Jim posted:It's a really good cutscene- it's a pity that they didn't manage to make some of the different-looking Reaper models in that one. Budget concerns, probably. It's more of a story decision.
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Mar 4, 2014 09:25
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