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Good job clipping out my reasoning and attacking my posting rather than refuting or discussing the problems with the show.
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Mar 3, 2014 22:49
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I mean, it's not like even the best Rider shows don't have their flaws. Kuuga is amazing but it's got such a slow burn that you could fall asleep during it. Kabuto's plot basically self-destructs at the midway point which compounds with a divisive main character, Den-O might as well not have a plot, Double has some of the worst offenders for monster suit design (Sweets and Violence, anyone?) compounded with a mostly nebulous villain endgame, OOO from like 16-30 is a boring drag, Fourze starts slow and for all of it's great cast holding up the show the plot is very much on a backburner for half the series, and Wizard has issues with payoffs never matching their build-up. I don't think it's people having no frame of reference, but I do think this is the best "story-driven" Rider we've had since, well. Kuuga. It's true the monsters are kind of just "there" and the Energy Riders being kind of samey in how they operate, but I can legitimately not think of a story-driven Rider that's worked better than Gaim has. I mean, hell. Look at how people reacted to the whole Helheim is another civilization ruined by Invess reveal we got this week. People were calling that we weren't going to see what was up with that until mid-summer. It really says a lot about Gaim that the writing is so strong that the most we can say is "this character needs more screentime" or "I'd like to see more unique monsters". Monathin fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Mar 3, 2014 |
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Mar 3, 2014 22:54
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Potsticker posted:One of the persistent problems is the Invess themselves. We're supposed to believe kids latched on to them as a cool battling thing to resolve schoolyard desputes like bugs or pokemon, but unlike those the Invess all just look the same. There's no link even between the lockseed used and the monster that comes out. Which it turns out is pretty important. How cool would Double have been if the dopants still kept their gaiamemory names but all used the same Worm suit and had no powers? I feel the first problem is a result of the first 15 episodes or so not really having Inves as this big evil but rather as a means to do evil. Joey using Inves to distract Micchy during the Gathering Tournament or Yggsdrasil using Inves to discredit the Beat Riders and shift attention away from themselves, for example. It is only until this episode that we see that the Inves are evil, but in the mindless, unrelentant, rules of nature kind of evil that results in extinction, not the EVIL with a face, a personality, a style. I feel that the ubiquitious design of the lockseeds and the Inves that popout on summoning reflects this. The Energy Rider complaint is valid. The same bow used as a sword for all four riders is a bit dull to see after a while, but the suit actors make up for this by just fighting differently. Sid uses his bow and style and trickery to win, Yoko uses her speed to keep opponents off balance, Ryoma uses counter attacks and manipulative movements to disarm and redirect and Takatora has deliberate expiereince movements that make up for his lack of speed or strength. It is testament to the quality of the suit actors to differenciate between these four, even if their design are similar to the point of redundancy
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Mar 3, 2014 23:03
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Potsticker posted:Good job clipping out my reasoning and attacking my posting rather than refuting or discussing the problems with the show. Oh no, I wasn't refuting your points I can totally see why someone would have a problem with that, but leading with that statement is still kind comes off kind of lovely regardless.
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Mar 3, 2014 23:09
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Potsticker posted:I wrote a lot on the specifics of why the early episodes were so bad from a storytelling perspective, but they were mostly drowned out by the mass of posters saying they never watched Rider shows before and had no frame of reference, but Gaim is so awesome.
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Mar 3, 2014 23:33
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So what would your OC fruit lockseed donut steal be? Mine would be Lychee. the jingle would be ryugen's and the weapon would be a polearm
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Mar 3, 2014 23:35
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Flameingblack posted:The only two Hesei series I haven't finished yet are Kiva and Den-O. I'm watching Stronger right now, but as far as Hesei goes Gaim still feels like top 3 material. Opinions are subjective. Top 5 at least. Top 3 for sure If I'm not allowed to include just the first 30 episodes of Hibiki. Hopefully Gaim doesn't pull a Hibiki, though toy sells are great so I doubt that will happen.
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Mar 4, 2014 00:01
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Oh poo poo guess who called it a month agoSpazmasterX posted:I'd bet money that there's a ruined city seen from that cliff.
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Mar 4, 2014 01:33
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If we're talking flaws of the show, I really think Bravo needs to go.
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Mar 4, 2014 01:40
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Justin_Brett posted:If we're talking flaws of the show, I really think Bravo needs to go. I will cut you. fabulously
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Mar 4, 2014 01:41
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Bravo really clearly represents a phase of the show that will be grown out of soon, much like the Beat Riders.
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Mar 4, 2014 02:14
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Rei_ posted:Bravo really clearly represents a phase of the show that will be grown out of soon, much like the Beat Riders. But on the other hand I don't want him to gooooooooooo. Also I'm almost certainly in the minority, but I honestly couldn't give a poo poo about how the suits look. So long as they are vaguely interesting, I'm on board. Sweets looked terrible but I was too busy laughing at Akiko to care. Speaking of Gaim specifically, the only time the Inves were really at the forefront of the show was just before and a bit after they stumble upon Helheim. For that period we were getting Inves that weren't inspired, but were a step up from the basic grey Inves and were unique for the time. Right about the time the next level of Inves started getting repeated and samey was when the story shifted focus to figuring out what Yggsdrasil was up to. It would be weird to put a ton of detail into creatures the show doesn't even bother to name. Though with the way the story is headed, I wouldn't be surprised if we get some sort of big named Inves at some point. It would probably be a mistake story-wise, but I could see it happening. As other people have already said, the fighting is fantastic despite the samey weapons. Which just means that is a crutch they don't need I guess?
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Mar 4, 2014 03:39
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There has to be some central villain eventually, though. All the unusual parts aside, there has to be someone for Kouta to jump kick at the end. Considering that helheim doesn't seem to be sentient thus far, I'm guessing a human will somehow take over helheim for themselves.
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Mar 4, 2014 05:55
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Serious Frolicking posted:There has to be some central villain eventually, though. All the unusual parts aside, there has to be someone for Kouta to jump kick at the end. Considering that helheim doesn't seem to be sentient thus far, I'm guessing a human will somehow take over helheim for themselves. DJ Sagara, after it's revealed that he's the CEO of Yggdrasil.
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Mar 4, 2014 06:00
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Serious Frolicking posted:There has to be some central villain eventually, though. All the unusual parts aside, there has to be someone for Kouta to jump kick at the end. Considering that helheim doesn't seem to be sentient thus far, I'm guessing a human will somehow take over helheim for themselves. Yggdrasil is the central Villain. Like the corporation as a whole is. Sid, Marika, and Doc Statesman have all been shown to have like really bad poo poo planned that they're scheming and are 100% ready to kill people who get in the way or are at least okay with the ones that are. It's fine to have an antagonistic force that's a group. There's no real need for a narrative to have a single individual be the antagonist. You just need someone down and dirty to be the face of that force and Yggdrasil has that in spades. Well, Cherries. Hell, this last episode had Sid talking about "the only thing that matters is who takes the forbidden fruit" so one of them will probably end up being that guy and the final kick-ee. Or Kaito goes full Chaos and becomes that guy. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Mar 4, 2014 |
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Mar 4, 2014 06:24
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Actually going off of scans for later episodes there's supposed to be an Invess Overlord that shows up at some point, seemingly around the time Kachidoki Arms becomes a thing. The Forbidden Fruit and 'The Chosen of Helheim' or whatever are likely factors into a larger overall story involving the Invess.
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Mar 4, 2014 06:25
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Or Kaito goes full Chaos and becomes that guy. Based on his emphasis last episode I'm fully expecting this now.
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Mar 4, 2014 15:49
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Sakurazuka posted:Based on his emphasis last episode I'm fully expecting this now.
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Mar 4, 2014 17:33
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linall posted:Speaking of Gaim specifically, the only time the Inves were really at the forefront of the show was just before and a bit after they stumble upon Helheim. For that period we were getting Inves that weren't inspired, but were a step up from the basic grey Inves and were unique for the time. Right about the time the next level of Inves started getting repeated and samey was when the story shifted focus to figuring out what Yggsdrasil was up to. It would be weird to put a ton of detail into creatures the show doesn't even bother to name. I agree with this, to me it really doesn't matter that there aren't many Inves designs because (for the moment at least) they're kind of peripheral to the actual story going on. So far Gaim has very much not been a monster-of-the-week show, so it makes sense that they wouldn't be too invested in making a bunch of unique suits like they do for that kind of show, since in that style of show the monster is the focus of the episode. The only real exception I can think of to this is Faiz, where the Orphenoc suits were cool design-wise, but they all were just solid gray and as such it made the monsters seem really dull and same-y. If the Inves start playing a larger role in the story (and I'm certain they will) then they'll start making more unique suits. I'm also not bothered by the fact that Inves summoned from Lock Seeds are all the same. Pokemon is a game about "catching them all" and making them all look different and be unique helps make it interesting to go out and catch and evolve them. The Inves were just meant to be a thing for the Beat Riders to use to control stages. They were basically just tools, not gathered just for the sake of it.
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Mar 5, 2014 00:43
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Originally, the method to catch them all was to buy them from Sid. It isn't like the dance teams were tabletop wargaming enthusiasts, so paying out the rear end to get a full set was never a big priority.
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Mar 5, 2014 00:55
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Plus, Invess and lockseeds are separated by class, not species.
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Mar 5, 2014 01:11
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The point is that kids are not going to buy inti a product where all the monsters look and act the same.
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Mar 5, 2014 01:17
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They never make toys of the monsters though? What the hell are you talking about?
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Mar 5, 2014 01:21
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Rei_ posted:They never make toys of the monsters though? What the hell are you talking about? You're an idiot I was clearly talking about the kids in the show who buy lockseeds and battle with the monsters.
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Mar 5, 2014 01:24
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Well the series didn't show us any scenes of them just playing with the Inves in friendly competitions, right? Everyone is using them for fights with stuff on the line, and in that case the priority is more 'can this thing fight well?' instead of whether they look cool.
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Mar 5, 2014 03:13
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Nobody in-show has any reason to care what their Inves looks like. They just need them to take/defend stages, and certain Lockseeds make better ones pop out.Potsticker posted:The point is that kids are not going to buy into a product where all the monsters look and act the same. If they were toys, sure, but I don't see how this matters when Beat Riders were buying them not because they thought Inves looked cool, but because they were a tool to move up the rankings without actually getting better, and later a form of defense from the former group. Motto fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Mar 5, 2014 |
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Mar 5, 2014 03:15
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Yeah and that's what I'm saying, is like the kids aren't buying the loving invess so why invest so much energy into designing them? The serve a larger purpose to the plot, whereas the Riders sell more toys and thus get more elaborate designs.
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Mar 5, 2014 03:22
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Because it's boring watching cool-design Riders beat up (or get beat up by) stumbling, hunched over mutated man-things that all look the same. Doubly so when we're supposed to believe that they're what the cool kids are using to battle over dance stages with. How does such a system even get started?
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Mar 5, 2014 03:32
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By Kaito, I would assume.
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Mar 5, 2014 03:33
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I really don't think any Beat Rider cares about Inves looking lame when they rocket them to the top of the rankings. And it doesn't really matter to us either since more focus is put on Rider v. Rider than Rider v. Inves.
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Mar 5, 2014 03:35
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The use of marketing and propaganda? Sid introduced the Lockseeds to the market and Sagara promoted it.
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Mar 5, 2014 03:36
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Potsticker posted:Because it's boring watching cool-design Riders beat up (or get beat up by) stumbling, hunched over mutated man-things that all look the same. And now we've also got the Kurokage mooks and the Energy Riders, again, a lot of sameness. Kabuto had the Zectroopers, Worms and Zectors themselves, and it still wasn't this level of bland sameness between them.
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Mar 5, 2014 03:41
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Potsticker posted:And now we've also got the Kurokage mooks and the Energy Riders, again, a lot of sameness. Kabuto had the Zectroopers, Worms and Zectors themselves, and it still wasn't this level of bland sameness between them.
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Mar 5, 2014 03:48
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Flameingblack posted:Did Gaim kick your dog or something? I've never seen someone nitpick a series to such a degree that they're looking for any reason in the world to discount it. The drama is between the characters, not between the Riders and the Monsters. What, no. I enjoy Gaim. Maybe not so much to start with, but overall it's been a good show that just had a rough start. It's got flaws and is disappointing in certain respects, but that's par for the course in Rider shows.
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Mar 5, 2014 03:53
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Potsticker posted:The point is that kids are not going to buy inti a product where all the monsters look and act the same. Kids bought into pogs.
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Mar 5, 2014 04:22
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Literally The Worst posted:Kids bought into pogs. Pogs had rad designs on them. This is like the Invess who all have rad designs.
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Mar 5, 2014 04:24
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Potsticker posted:Pogs had rad designs on them. This is like the Invess who all have rad designs. Pogs were all cardboard circles that were different colors, much like most of the Invess are the same suit in different colors. Kids buy into stupid poo poo. Stop being obtuse and demanding Perfect Marketing Realism in your show about fruit samurai.
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Mar 5, 2014 04:29
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I'd much rather buy into more arms change figures that aren't grossly expensive. 
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Mar 5, 2014 04:32
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Literally The Worst posted:Pogs were all cardboard circles that were different colors, much like most of the Invess are the same suit in different colors. Different colored circles? Did I not get the boring pogs because all the ones I saw had cartoon chatacters, graffiti-style pop art, and the like. At least you could've used marbles as your example which are just different colored orbs that kids used to battle each other with. That's a much better comparison which proves your point a lot better.
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Mar 5, 2014 04:35
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I don't know how weird it is but has anyone noticed that no one has referred to Gaim as a Kamen Rider. It is Beat Rider, Energy Rider, and so on. Might be interesting if he has to earn the title in order to be called a full fledged Kamen Rider.
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Mar 5, 2014 04:41
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