|
Volkerball posted:Go grind your stupid ax somewhere else. If you are ostensibly so concerned about figuring out an effective international response to the crisis in Syria why not acknowledge the obvious problem of the US's lack of credibility as a good faith international actor and discuss possible solutions as opposed to denying the issue even exists and trying to shame anyone who's not equally delusional into shutting up with gore porn?
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2014 17:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 09:14 |
|
|
Given that the US has shown that they're not going to get involved in Syria beyond the level of diplomacy and ineffectual covert support to certain approved opposition groups, I'm not sure what relevance these arguments have to events in Syria right now.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2014 17:27
|
|
|
Sacrilicious posted:If you are ostensibly so concerned about figuring out an effective international response to the crisis in Syria why not acknowledge the obvious problem of the US's lack of credibility as a good faith international actor and discuss possible solutions as opposed to denying the issue even exists and trying to shame anyone who's not equally delusional into shutting up with gore porn? That wasn't even about international responses. My issue is that you guys are presented the torture situation in Syria, and for some ridiculous reason, you want to talk about things the US has done wrong. It's like if there was a story about a woman being brutally raped and murdered, and you all want to talk about police misconduct while glossing over the whole first part of that. The important takeaway from the story that the US condemns Syria's use of torture is that the Assad regime is hosed and depraved. Not anything else. It's not like we're on the brink of a US invasion that you all must discredit them to prevent. And sorry to whichever mod had to edit that last post. I know better, but come on.
|
|
#
?
Mar 2, 2014 18:07
|
|
|
Libyans apparently stormed the GNC parliament and demanded early elections, two Libyan MPs were also shot in the process. Apparently the GNC's own militia group kidnapped a bunch of protesters during an overnight sit-in. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2014/03/injuries-as-protesters-storm-libya-parliament-20143220375426574.html
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 01:47
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:That wasn't even about international responses. My issue is that you guys are presented the torture situation in Syria, and for some ridiculous reason, you want to talk about things the US has done wrong. It's like if there was a story about a woman being brutally raped and murdered, and you all want to talk about police misconduct while glossing over the whole first part of that. The important takeaway from the story that the US condemns Syria's use of torture is that the Assad regime is hosed and depraved. Not anything else. It's not like we're on the brink of a US invasion that you all must discredit them to prevent. And sorry to whichever mod had to edit that last post. I know better, but come on. You can't discuss the Middle East (i.e. the thread's topic) without discussing US foreign policy, since the latter has had a huge impact in shaping the region over the past quarter century.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 03:29
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:You can't discuss the Middle East (i.e. the thread's topic) without discussing US foreign policy, since the latter has had a huge impact in shaping the region over the past quarter century. But in the context of the Syrian Civil War, the US policy of extraordinary rendition and torture has no importance. It's a terrible policy that shouldn't be minimized, but it has no bearing on the crimes of Assad's regime.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 04:35
|
|
|
cafel posted:But in the context of the Syrian Civil War, the US policy of extraordinary rendition and torture has no importance. It's a terrible policy that shouldn't be minimized, but it has no bearing on the crimes of Assad's regime. The US sending people to Syria to be tortured has no bearing on the crimes of Assad? I beg to differ.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 04:52
|
|
|
I've come to the sad conclusion that barring massive economic upheaval, the AKP's gonna be in power till Erdogan dies. Poor Turkey.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 04:54
|
|
|
cafel posted:But in the context of the Syrian Civil War, the US policy of extraordinary rendition and torture has no importance. It's a terrible policy that shouldn't be minimized, but it has no bearing on the crimes of Assad's regime. I disagree, but my disagreement is subjective. While torture has always existed (even in the animal kingdom!), my belief is that the way the US has been treating its prisoners of war over the past 10-15 years has led to a phenomenon that I call "the normalization of torture." Essentially, the idea is that if the country that advertises itself as the bastion of peace, democracy and freedom is wantonly imprisoning people and torturing them, that means it is acceptable for other countries to engage in the same practices. In a sense, the actions of the USA are setting a standard whereby torture is OK. It also leads to a situation where warnings issued by the US are not taken very seriously unless they are backed with threats of economic sanctions or projection of military strength. The problem is that once you make such threats, you actually have to follow through on them. And we know what that leads to.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 05:29
|
|
|
Count Roland posted:The US sending people to Syria to be tortured has no bearing on the crimes of Assad? I beg to differ. So does the existence of the extraordinary rendition program make Assad's interaction with protestors and then the rebels better or worse? How exactly does it play into the current Syrian Civil War at all? enraged_camel posted:I disagree, but my disagreement is subjective. Except various regimes and governments have tortured dissidents and 'terrorists' to one degree or another since the beginning of civilization and it never came to a stop at any point. I find it very hard to believe that up until the War on Terror the US was some kind of inspiring figure on the hill that various regimes asspired to and it's bad behavior is what allowed this conflict to happen. Homs was sieged and brutally pacified by Assad's father well before extraordinary rendition and the secret torture camps were a thing. Second, there's a difference between torture of dozens of people in the pursuit of information and the torture of thousands to silence voices of dissent and intimidate the general population. Both are abominable, but you can't really compare what we know of the US program to say systematically torturing thousands of people to death. I'm a bit baffled by your point about economic sanctions or military threats. Those are always the root of diplomacy when dealing with a hostile country. Having the moral high ground can be helpful and it certainly feels a lot better, but if moral superiority were some kind of magic bullet in international relations the Dalia Lama wouldn't be in stateless exile. What was the point in the history of the US that they told a hostile regime to do something and the regime decided to do it because America set such a good example? Look, we can all agree that the US has throughout it's history done hosed up things and continues to do hosed up things, but I fail to see a strong connection between extraordinary rendition and the current situation.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 06:40
|
|
|
Just put a blog post up about a couple of interesting videos I've come across. This first one shows a DIY barrel bomb drop from the stub wings of a Hind helicopter, something that's never been seen before in the conflict https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zloKd3BnE30 And here we have a video of the largest type of Volcano rocket being launched, that's allows us to establish a max range of at least 2.7km https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGO-ydemXHA
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 14:25
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:I disagree, but my disagreement is subjective. Haha if you really think that everyone hasn't been torturing the poo poo out of everyone else basically forever.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 15:06
|
|
|
cafel posted:So does the existence of the extraordinary rendition program make Assad's interaction with protestors and then the rebels better or worse? How exactly does it play into the current Syrian Civil War at all? It doesn't make Assad better or worse; his crimes and the crimes of those under them are atrocities, and the actions of others doesn't effect how bad they are. It does however make US criticism ring hollow. The US of torture by the US and by allied countries (Egypt was most notable until the revolution) should be addressed in the strictest way possible, by thorough investigations in courts of law or whatever measures can be brought to bear against foreign regimes. The US cares a great deal about torture - when the regime perpetrating it is unfriendly. When torture is done in the name of the "war on terror" then it becomes, if not acceptable, then regrettably sometimes necessary. A great deal more should have been done when the Abu Ghraib revelations came to light, especially assigning blame higher up the food chain. This doesn't somehow make torture in Syria ok. It does mean that if the US uses torture in Syria as a justification for certain actions, say sanctions or military actions, it should enforce similar standards internally as well on its allies. Torture is disgusting, and absolutely unacceptable in all circumstances. It should not be ignored or glossed over when the perpetrators are friendly.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 15:15
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:In a sense, the actions of the USA are setting a standard whereby torture is OK. That standard already openly existed in much of the world, and privately existed in the rest of it. The US isn't helping much to change it, but it sure as hell isn't a good example if you're looking to justify torture in your own country (you probably already have). Torture at least became a public scandal and an ongoing topic in the media in the US. Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Mar 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 15:38
|
|
|
Count Roland posted:It doesn't make Assad better or worse; his crimes and the crimes of those under them are atrocities, and the actions of others doesn't effect how bad they are. I agree with you, but again I find it hard to directly compare the US's actions with the record we now have of Assad systematically torturing thousands of people to death. Not that this diminishes or excuses the things the US has done in the War on Terror, or the Cold War, or the imperialism of the late 19th and early 20th century, but I don't think it really does make the criticisms ring hollow. The scope and brutality of Assad's actions are on another level, if the US were to enforce the same standard on itself before it acted I believe it would pass rather easily.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 22:14
|
|
|
A while after the Snowden leaks, I saw an article by some pundit that said, among other things, that there should be no more leaks because revelations about the US security apparatuses would reduce the US's "credibility" with respect to criticism of PRC security apparatuses. "This thread could be even worse," I think to myself. Anyway. With the recent Ukraine thing I'm wondering how common a thing it is with Russia, or other states, to establish de facto separat geographically unified areas with an ethnic minority (sometimes just Russians) in a country? I mean I know about Georgia and Transnistria, and I'm wondering how plausible the same strategy is in, uh, the Latakia region.
|
|
#
?
Mar 3, 2014 23:47
|
|
|
The-Mole posted:Haha if you really think that everyone hasn't been torturing the poo poo out of everyone else basically forever. Please read the first five words of the second paragraph of my post. I'll even quote them again for you: quote:While torture has always existed...
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 02:45
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:I disagree, but my disagreement is subjective. Yes, everyone is aware that the US record in regards to its treatment of detainess is pretty bad, but even that record is pretty clean in comparison to the Syrian government, which relies on torture as part of the foundation that the regime rests upon. Furthermore, even if the US's record was spotless, it wouldn't change the Syrian government's conduct. This perspective that because the US did it, other countries now find it acceptable as well is incredibly naive and essentially takes the viewpoint that other nations have no agency of their own. EDIT: This entire derail is stupid anyway, it gets incredibly annoying at how regularly the "Well the US is bad too!" brigade tries to poo poo up the thread, as if everyone in D&D will forget if it's not posted at least twice every day. Vernii fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Mar 4, 2014 |
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 06:00
|
|
|
I really don't think anyone can look at the US as a model of how to torture and get away with it. There are too many uncertainties, too many people on the inside who disagree with it, and too many people on the outside who express their disapproval without retribution by the government. The DoD and CIA are opposed on the issue as a matter of policy. Would that seem an attractive state of affairs to a torture-eager observer? I don't think so, not when you have better examples elsewhere.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 06:29
|
|
|
Fallom posted:I really don't think anyone can look at the US as a model of how to torture and get away with it. There are too many uncertainties, too many people on the inside who disagree with it, and too many people on the outside who express their disapproval without retribution by the government. The DoD and CIA are opposed on the issue as a matter of policy. Would that seem an attractive state of affairs to a torture-eager observer? I don't think so, not when you have better examples elsewhere. It appeared more like when the US needed lessons in torture, the turned to the Syrians to show us how it's done right.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 06:36
|
|
|
Deteriorata posted:It appeared more like when the US needed lessons in torture, the turned to the Syrians to show us how it's done right. Very likely that the US sent CIA or CIA trained personnel to teach their people how to do it at some point immediately after 9/11. CIA trained people in Uruguay, Argentina, Central America etc were torturing people when Assad was a twinkle in his daddy's eye. Hell, in Argentina they'd fly them in a helicopter to the middle of the ocean and just kick them out the door.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 07:50
|
|
|
FizFashizzle posted:Very likely that the US sent CIA or CIA trained personnel to teach their people how to do it at some point immediately after 9/11. And the Argentinians could never have come up with that, do they lack some sort of gene for evil only Americans have ?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 08:03
|
|
|
CeeJee posted:And the Argentinians could never have come up with that, do they lack some sort of gene for evil only Americans have ? Well with Argentina specifically the CIA just hired all the former Nazis living there. Are you somehow denying the CIA directed torture and killing in South America?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 08:05
|
|
|
FizFashizzle posted:Well with Argentina specifically the CIA just hired all the former Nazis living there. No, just that torture could not have happened without the CIA. Or Nazis. South Americans (or Syrians) are not so primitive they need foreigners to come up with a concept like killing or torturing political opponents on their own.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 08:53
|
|
|
CeeJee posted:No, just that torture could not have happened without the CIA. Or Nazis. South Americans (or Syrians) are not so primitive they need foreigners to come up with a concept like killing or torturing political opponents on their own. Except it's very well documented the CIA goes into the places beforehand and instructs/teaches them in their methods, funds them, gives them lists of people they want taken care of, etc.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 08:56
|
|
|
Count Roland posted:It doesn't make Assad better or worse; his crimes and the crimes of those under them are atrocities, and the actions of others doesn't effect how bad they are. So your "argument" is that America needs to take action against American torturers, but can't take action against Syrian torturers, because inaction on the former means they don't "really" care about the latter, and I'm sure Syrians raped and tortured to death would hate to be aided by hypocrites. But since America hasn't brought Syrian torturers to justice, then obviously it would be hypocritical to prosecute American torturers, so they have to be let go, so America can't touch Syrian torturers, so American torturers can't be prosecuted, so..... It's like a snake swallowing its own tail. Which sounds kinda like a form of torture to me, get that snake to the Hague!
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 09:39
|
|
|
Uh, has ISIS overtaken Yarmouk refugee camp? Anyone heard about this?
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 15:21
|
|
|
This is the announcement, not seen any confirmation though
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 16:02
|
|
|
So is there any chance Erdogan is going to try to deflect attention from his problems by getting involved in Crimea? It worked out for the Turks the last time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 17:01
|
|
|
Looks like the scandal might spread, the latest tape implicate a Spanish company, which could take events out of Erdogan's control if they start being investigated.
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 17:53
|
|
|
Brown Moses posted:Looks like the scandal might spread, the latest tape implicate a Spanish company, which could take events out of Erdogan's control if they start being investigated. This would be hella sweet, I cant wait for other international companies gets involved. Globalization wooooo!
|
|
#
?
Mar 4, 2014 20:19
|
|
|
The X-man cometh posted:So is there any chance Erdogan is going to try to deflect attention from his problems by getting involved in Crimea? Completely different situations.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2014 03:57
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Completely different situations. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2014 06:52
|
|
|
That's unfortunate about Yarmouk. Everything about Yarmouk is unfortunate, I suppose. Saw an account from a Syrian-American Christian about a Christian friend of hers in Syria whose house was raided by a group of armed men. They claimed to be JAN, but they spoke with "Alawi accents," and they seem certain that shabiha are posing as JAN/ISIS in raids against Christians. Anyone heard anything like this?
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2014 07:13
|
|
|
After complaining about Facebook deleting opposition group Facebook pages, someone has put together a website that allows Facebook pages to be archived. I've been using it for a while, and it's a pretty handy tool to have. The developers hope to include improved search functions, etc. I've also been approached by an agent from ICM Partners who has a publisher interested in publishing a book written by me about my work, so no doubt this thread, and Something Awful in general, will feature.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2014 09:42
|
|
|
Reports from the BBC and other sites that "Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, UAE withdraw ambassadors from Qatar amid accusations that it has meddled in internal affairs". quote:Saudi, Bahrain, UAE recall envoys to Qatar
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2014 10:21
|
|
|
Everyone knows Qatar has been loving around but for GCC members to admit it is a pretty big deal.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2014 10:30
|
|
|
MothraAttack posted:That's unfortunate about Yarmouk. Everything about Yarmouk is unfortunate, I suppose. There is no such thing as an alawi accent, the region has alot of sects and religions but generally they'd have regional accents and they would have identified it by whatever region these guys hail from. I'm not ruling this out yet, as an arab this is the first time i heard someone identifying people's language by sect, usually its by region or country.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2014 12:26
|
|
|
CeeJee posted:And the Argentinians could never have come up with that, do they lack some sort of gene for evil only Americans have ? Actually the Argentine Federal Police was the first organization to use electric shocks institutionally as a form of torture, during the dictatorship of Uriburu. Polo Lugones, who was the son of the author Leopoldo Lugones, modified cattle prods and spread them through the force. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2014 12:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 09:14 |
|
|
Big CW in Syria newsquote:Chemical weapons used in Syria appear to come from army stockpile -UN Khan al-Assal was the subject of a report by the Russians which not only blamed the opposition, but also named the group and exact type of rocket responsible. Seems that was total poo poo. It's also worth noting this claim by Ake Sellstrom (page 3) quote:Regarding the first issue [opposition CWA attacks], I fully agree. If you try the theory that it was the opposition that did it, it is difficult to see how it was weaponised. Several times I asked the government: can you explain – if this was the opposition – how did they get hold of the chemical weapons? They have quite poor theories: they talk about smuggling through Turkey, labs in Iraq and I asked them, pointedly, what about your own stores, have your own stores being stripped of anything, have you dropped a bomb that has been claimed, bombs that can be recovered by the opposition? They denied that. To me it is strange. If they really want to blame the opposition they should have a good story as to how they got hold of the munitions, and they didn’t take the chance to deliver that story.
|
|
#
?
Mar 5, 2014 12:39
|
|