quote:

A far-right mayoral candidate of Paris’s upmarket 6th arrondissement has apologised after writing on his blog that Roma (Gypsies) should be “concentrated” in “camps”.

Omi-Polari posted:

It might be arbitrary but I'd argue fascism is totalitarian while other forms of right-wing authoritarianism are not. Right-wing authoritarians don't mess with the social and economic structure too much. They leave people in poverty and leave wealth in the hands of the few. They put traditional gods on a pedestal. And most importantly, they don't interfere with people's daily work-family lives too much. If you keep your head down, don't get involved with politics, and just go about as normal, the state won't mess with you. Your life is miserable, but it's always been miserable, so you're accustomed to it. People don't flee these countries in huge numbers. Where fascism has revolutionary ambitions and aims for the total transformation of society. It's inexact, but if Russia was fascist you'd expect Nashi to be mandatory for all youths between ages 17-25.

ekuNNN posted:

http://www.france24.com/en/20140304-french-national-front-ally-would-concentrate-gypsies-camps/

quote:

Another “more rational, humane and reasonable” solution, he said, would be to “suspend the Schengen treaty” that allows for free movement across the European Union (most European Gypsies come from EU member states Romania and Bulgaria).

Mans posted:

The Roma "issue" is a really embarrassing thing in Europe.

Mans posted:

I'm pretty sure the emigration rate in Spain was pretty considerable specially with France right next door. At least it was enormous in Portugal. The Spanish didn't have an idiotic war that threw thousands of Spaniards into a jungle meatgrinder though.

quote:

The difference between fascism and authoritarian right is pretty nebulous i agree, it goes to the point where you can either consider all right wing authoritarian governments fascism (up to Pinochet), only the right wing authoritarian governments that rose in Europe after the war or just the people who literally professed themselves as fascists, so pretty much Italy.

quote:

Seeing how all the other right wing states in Europe took serious lessons from Mussolini it's hard not to call them at the very least pseudo fascists. But indeed fascism is more of a useful tool to the dominant class than something that natural transpires out of a capitalist crisis. In a society broken to the point of post Soviet Russia or current austerity ridden Europe the failure to invoke class conscious results in the only possible scapegoat being chauvinism, racism, nationalism, misogyny, homophobia or trans-phobia. Whichever will be used or how much they would be used to funnel the protesting populace away from enacting actual change to society depends on just how useful they'd be at the present time. The Nazis only rose in popularity on the consideration of the conservatives because they seemed the perfect fit of idiots to muscle the left opposition around, not because of an inherent relation between the upper class and nacional socialism (if they could've put a bunch of riot police as acting ministers they would've probably done so).

ekuNNN posted:

http://www.france24.com/en/20140304-french-national-front-ally-would-concentrate-gypsies-camps/

Rutkowski posted:

It hits particularly close for me because when I was homeless as a teen it was the local Roma who took me in and gave me shelter(as much as they could, they were very poor and lived in cars and a trailer themselves) and I spent most of my time with them during and after my time as homeless.

SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:

gypsy / mobile home folk can definitely be well-organized criminals just as well as any other group of people. that they're getting thoroughly owned everywhere they go isn't a reason to put on blinders when you have to make rhetorical concessions to the people experiencing that poo poo. A year or so ago in Blerick where I lived the local Dutch 'white trash' (called 'kampers' lol) were busted by the police for having some form of giant drug laboratory on the council-granted land that they all live on next to the hardware store. It was like a 50 million euro bust of xtc and poo poo that was meant to go to Germany and out west

as Zizek says it's easy to play the liberal and go the poor roma who are victims of their circumstance and no one likes them and that's why they are treated inhumanely but if youre european leave petty moralism like that to americans. what you should be doing is going east and experiencing hosed up-ness for yourself. or are the liberals going to come out of the woodwork again to profess their insanely consistent and brutally good & cogent theory about which groups of people we are going to grant agency (rapists, stalinists, bankers) and which we aren't (most minorities, roma)?

the solution can only be structural and egalitarian, we're agreed there. but that does not mean that you can just go up to all the people (often workers too!) who've been acquainted with roma crime and go wow waht an ignoramus you are dont you know that these peopele are victims and thats why they do it DAD... jfc wow just wow

newsflash people, roma poo poo happens in Bosnia all the time despitethe unemployment rate being like 45% and the country having an insanely low crime rate (discounting le corruption). the point is not to go: NO... NO dont touch my beautiful snowflake people w/ your epic critique.. u are wrong, WRONG!! And if u disagree your a fascist!!! the point is to go yes, certain groups of people like the gypsies are overrepresented in certain areas of heinous poo poo, but it's through no fault of their own, these people have faced a fuckton of material persecution with almost unanimous public consent to the point where they were being sterilized by Western ''''''''''''''''''progressive liberal'''''''''''''''''''''''governments only 40 years ago


my sob story is with a moroccan family taking me in but thats like the same cherry picking logic that people use to brand all moroccans as a certain way. how about we stop talking about people in their platonic form of noble savagery lol

Sakarja posted:

Except for the period during/after the Spanish Civil War, wasn't the emigration from Spain and Portugal mostly about people seeking work in other parts of Europe?


It doesn't have to be all or none, even if there are those who take the position that only Italian Fascism qualifies, and that there is no such thing as "generic fascism". But as long as we accept the validity of the concept of generic fascism, I can't see any problem with describing Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, the Arrow Cross, the Legion of the Archangel Michael and the Ustasha as fascists.


Several conservative authoritarian regimes adopted certain attributes of fascism in order siphon support from them for themselves. But as long as the regimes lacked any real fascist ambitions or content, there's not much reason to call them such. But psuedo-fascism might be fitting, I guess.

And the thing is that they could've pretty much exactly that. The non-fascist Right in Germany could've just taken power for itself, instead of attempting to "tame" the Nazis. It was happening all over Europe at the time. As for why it didn't happen in Germany, I think that had more to do with conflicts and problems within the non-fascist Right, rather than unqualified conservative support for the Nazis.

SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:

Mans posted:

The real crime that the Roma minority do is not proportional to the crime that they hare reported of doing,specially compared to the consequences of white people theft (there are no gipsies in any Euro government). This is a serious question about how they're open victims of right wing populism and xenophobia and used as a scapegoat to hide the real problems in society.

SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:

my sob story is with a moroccan family taking me in but thats like the same cherry picking logic that people use to brand all moroccans as a certain way. how about we stop talking about people in their platonic form of noble savagery lol

SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:

thats the loving truth for every single minority accused of being OVERREPRESENTED IN CRIME STATISTICS, niggy. i dont care about them stealing a snickers, i care about stringing up bankers who made 2 million people lose their house in the US in a single month. but you missed the point of what i was trying to say doofus

SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:

Incomprehensible poo poo

SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:

thats the loving truth for every single minority accused of being OVERREPRESENTED IN CRIME STATISTICS, niggy. i dont care about them stealing a snickers, i care about stringing up bankers who made 2 million people lose their house in the US in a single month. but you missed the point of what i was trying to say doofus

Mans posted:

It's like Zizek on cocaine.

V. Illych L. posted:

Uh, dude you should probably calm down a bit. It's pretty much an empirical fact that roma are demonised in much of Europe - remember the media coverage of that blonde girl in Bulgaria? And, being the demonised minority of choice these days, they're also a favoured target of fascist or pseudo-fascist rhetoric (I can dig up concrete examples from my own country on this if you want). This being the fascism thread, that's pretty clearly pertinent.

V. Illych L. posted:

but you're posturing on the internet

that is literally what you're doing right now i dont even

SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:

thats the loving truth for every single minority accused of being OVERREPRESENTED IN CRIME STATISTICS, niggy. i dont care about them stealing a snickers, i care about stringing up bankers who made 2 million people lose their house in the US in a single month. but you missed the point of what i was trying to say doofus

SSJ2 Goku Wilders posted:

i actually just got done securing an appeal for a sierra leonese immigrant whos spent most of her life here since her arrival in 2009 in a group home for domestic violence and is now being hosed by new government policy forgive me for not posturing on the internet lmao

also rutkowski if we play oppression olympics i will win. but if you win thats okay too as long as you dont spend your money on heroine and wh40k poo poo. oh wait that was tias, my mistake

Gantolandon posted:

instantly interpreting his posts in the worst possible light?

Nonsense posted:

What the gently caress is "anti-social behavior" and why does every racist on the internet use it? And I mean literally every racist I've encountered online.

Nonsense posted:

What the gently caress is "anti-social behavior" and why does every racist on the internet use it? And I mean literally every racist I've encountered online.

V. Illych L. posted:

jews are awful people, not because of their race but because their culture just values hoarding all that fukkin gold and charging usurious rent

why only yesterday my cousin got thrown out of his house by one of those drat jewish moneylenders who wouldnt give him just a very reasonable extension

Seriously, you need to critically reflect on why the situation with roma in Europe is so hosed up and how, if at all, it can be solved. Like, you're saying you agree with Goku Wilders here, but I honestly don't think that you do.

There are obvious issues with the roma as a group - they tend to integrate poorly into societies, they tend to travel a lot, meaning that they don't hold down regular jobs and often resort to theft or begging, and they tend to be quite insular and distrustful of whatever state they're currently in, not without reason. In return, they are shunned, harassed, have their camps ransacked and get tons of poo poo from the local population, which drives them further into insularity/society-away-from-society. How this can be fixed is certainly beyond me, but feeding into this hosed-up social cycle sure as hell isn't going to help.

Saying "roma are awful people" is not only quite racist, it's also completely failing to see the issues present for what they are. It's directing your general loathing to an ethnic group, reifying both them and this feeling of loathing. Even as separate from fascism, racism is a waste of time and you shouldn't do it.

Office Pig posted:

Goku, man, I don't know the full extent of what's going on with you right now, but it might be a good time to back out from the forums for a bit. I've liked a lot of the things you've written in the past, and comparing it to this recent line of posting gives me the impression that it would be really unhealthy to continue with whatever this is. It might be good to give yourself a breather, right now.

Berke Negri posted:

Clearly Europe solely exists so American's have at least someone to feel superior to when it comes to discussing race, Jesus Christ.

computer parts posted:

No, but it is funny in light of the "America is a third world country" blather that has been ongoing for the past decade.

R. Mute posted:

Goku actually has a good point and it's much more relatable to the public than most other solutions. While you can berate people for being racist when they complain about Roma crime, it's much more productive to say: While the level of criminal activity of the Roma is greatly exaggerated, there is a problem with crime in their community. This problem isn't caused by them being Roma, it's caused by the systematic oppression they've experienced for centuries and the failure of the nation state of giving a framework to their lifestyle. Thus the solution to these specific problems of crime won't be to remove the Roma from your country or by having law enforcement target them specifically, it'll be by fighting those forms of oppression and by providing them a framework within which they can thrive.

You can fight racism by fighting racist misconceptions and other racist utterances, sure, but you'll never get anywhere. You have to fight systemic oppression, which is a much less sexy and much slower process, but it'll actually get you somewhere. And before you can identify the oppression and the cause of much of the problems of these communities, you have to be willing to see these problems as they are and that means shedding the liberal cloak you've lovingly placed over the Roma. It may shield them from attacks from racists, but it won't stop these attacks, nor will it actually improve the conditions for the Roma in the long run.