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So you lose one sheep, yeah, that's sad. But you don't go wandering off looking for it and leave ninety-nine perfectly good sheep unattended! That's just asking for trouble. I don't know any shepherd that would do something like that. I think someone forgot four little words: Write What You Know
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Mar 9, 2014 23:16
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PootieTang posted:I think the problem is that people want the game to have artistic merit. But that doesn't often happen when you have a game written by committee, in the age of focus groups. Yeah, video games have not developed a respect for auteur theory the way films learned to in the 50s and 60s. Those small, one-or-two-man studios can produce a game with artistic integrity and coherency, but the AAA games I've played suffer from a lack of creative leadership. A lot of that probably has to do with the scope of these projects and current technological limitations, but I also suspect the industry's inferiority complex is also holding itself back. On the other hand, even the big studios are developing their own distinct and identifiable personalities. Those personalities are not always a good thing, but they might also be the start to forming big games with artistic merit.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:19
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The Unnamed One posted:Relays are presented as a form of stagnation, Reaper influence or not. The asari wouldn't try to build another form of transportation from things they learned from the past, and even laugh at Liara's "father" for suggesting that (altough who the gently caress knows if that's true, since apparently she's watching Liara on the Matriarch's orders, but they did withhold information from the Conduit on Thessia). quote:Also a game where a bunch of several different species are stuck on the same planet, and some can't even eat its food has potential, and was one of the few things that made me go "Well, if they want to do something after this, I guess it's a good starting point". Edit: I don't think it's a terrible premise for a sci-fi story, but pretending it would be anything other than incredibly tragic for the main characters as established within the ME canon is seriously reaching. Lt. Danger posted:No, look, it's not- it's not real, okay? None of it is. Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Mar 9, 2014 |
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Mar 9, 2014 23:23
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Lt. Danger posted:No, look, it's not- it's not real, okay? None of it is. Also remember that there's already another, separate ending that's all about taking the tools of the older generation for your own purposes— you're just keeping the Reapers themselves in your toolbox along with their technologies. Destroy is about something different than Control. I mean, ultimately I'm actually pretty happy with the EC-- I liked the original endings anyway, but in general I think the EC led to a better experience-- but I do wish they'd let the relays stay blown up. They could even just come up with some stupid deus ex machina solution to FTL, since it's pretty well established that everyone understands how the relays work (they built comm buoys; Aethyta's plan to build more relays is dismissed for being pointless because there's no point when relays already exist, not because it's literally impossible to replicate the technology, etc.) if they want to reassure everyone that it won't just lead to all the dextros on Earth starving to death or whatever other stupid things people assumed would happen. I've always felt like the main selling point of Destroy was the idea of finally and unequivocally destroying the things the Reapers left behind to shape galactic civilization in their own image. The big twist of Mass Effect 1 was that the old sci fi trope of the lost forerunner species was actually an enormous, galaxy-sized trap— that the flowering of galactic civilization was just vines on a trellis awaiting harvest. There's something pretty satisfying about torching all of that and making your own future. EDIT: Kegluneq posted:Do they also discard clothing and fire in your metaphor? Unlike the relays, etc., clothing and fire are not consistently depicted as a symbol of the prior generation manipulating younger generations for their own benefit. This isn't about the Destroy ending being a vindication of anarcho-primitivism or something— destroying the Reaper technologies is significant because of what those specific technologies mean in Mass Effect. Empress Theonora fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Mar 9, 2014 |
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Mar 9, 2014 23:34
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Kegluneq posted:I too cannot wait for the scene in ME4 where Tali kills herself rather than starve to death, forever unable to return to Rannoch. Or for Wrex to kill everyone else because he can't return to Tuchanka and they may as well make a start of it on Earth. As with the exploding Mass Relays, it is not necessary for the Turians and Quarians to starve to death if the writers don't want them to. Just use your imaginations, not everything has to be spelled out. To quote another poster in the Teen Wolf thread: KilGrey posted:It's one of my pet peeves when people bitch about something that's not immediately spoon fed to them a moment after a reveal and call it bad writing or a plot hole. It's a bit out of context but that sums up my attitude. The exploding Mass Relays could destroy the system they are in, just like the Alpha Relay. But the cause is radically different, the visuals are different, why can the whole process not be different as well and the Relays DON'T destroy their systems. The same with the stranded Turians and Quarians, use your imagination: What about the Quarian liveships that provided them with their dextro-food? That they heavily armed to take back Rannoch? Which were not needed anymore since they returned to their homeworld? I don't remember if we saw any of them in the space battle above Earth, but if not then they should have been there. It doesn't matter too much, the writers can just retcon it. Then the Turian and Quarian food supply would be scarce but probably manageable. How do they cope without dextro-planets to settle on? Will they be part of the larger society with artificial food nearly all the time, save for what they can grow on the liveships? There would be many interesting scenarios to pursue, I would have preferred that to the EC ending.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:39
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Kegluneq posted:ME3 (following ME2) showed the original geth as sympathetic figures so YMMV. I'm pretty sure both EDI and the geth are the first ones to actually identify their organic elements as improvements as well, so is this really Bioware being racist against robots? I used to think AI wanting to become more like organics was nice an interesting. Bioware's nonsense made me reexamine that whole mindset and realize what a disservice it was doing to characterization. I recommend checking this out: http://holdtheline.com/threads/me2-writer-chris-letoile-on-the-ai-characters-and-the-reapers.4229/
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Mar 9, 2014 23:43
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The turian and quarian food issue is something that the ending really does not need to address. It's a piece of world building, not a part of the main storyline.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:47
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Rincewind posted:I've always felt like the main selling point of Destroy was the idea of finally and unequivocally destroying the things the Reapers left behind to shape galactic civilization in their own image. The big twist of Mass Effect 1 was that the old sci fi trope of the lost forerunner species was actually an enormous, galaxy-sized trap— that the flowering of galactic civilization was just vines on a trellis awaiting harvest. There's something pretty satisfying about torching all of that and making your own future. Once the connection between the Citadel, the Relays and the Reapers was actually established, their traditional role was broken. They no longer function as simply tools to direct growth along such a route that it could be cut down, partly because they were no longer needed for this, partly because awareness of their function leads to new understanding. Basically, rebuilding/repairing the relays does not mean re-establishing the old order. There's literally no reason to want them destroyed, because they no longer do or represent what they used to. The Citadel, otoh, had no clear pre-established function repeated slavishly each time. The Protheans used it as the capital for an authoritarian galaxy-wide Empire. In this cycle, it was the symbolic centre of democracy and proportional representation, a system that (for Paragon Shep) was working exceptionally well by the end. Returning to that is in no way a validation of Reaper ideology. Edit: It's interesting to see how the characterisation of AI changed between 2 and 3, but 3 is what we're left with and what I've been basing my argument on. Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Mar 9, 2014 |
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Mar 9, 2014 23:49
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The Unnamed One posted:Relays are presented as a form of stagnation, Reaper influence or not. The asari wouldn't try to build another form of transportation from things they learned from the past, and even laugh at Liara's "father" for suggesting that (altough who the gently caress knows if that's true, since apparently she's watching Liara on the Matriarch's orders, but they did withhold information from the Conduit on Thessia). In my opinion, part of the reason the galaxy stagnated before was because its mainly led by a very long lived race who had little interest in rocking the boat since they didn't need to. Keeping technology relatively stagnant let the Asari stay on top with their secret Prothean library. I think that is a reasonable assumption. Part of it is that there were much larger periods of peace in the galaxy after the whole Rachni/Krogan ordeal where there was little impetus for advancement in many areas. Lt. Danger posted:No, look, it's not- it's not real, okay? None of it is.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:52
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Kegluneq posted:If the Citadel had been destroyed after being recognised as a clear trap at the end of ME1, there would have been no Catalyst to effect any of the endings. The Reapers could have returned unopposed. Alternatively, it could have crippled the Relays and the Reapers both, in which circumstance no-one would ever actually learn what their purpose was. This story doesn't make any sense. If my wastrel son ran off, lost all his money and came crawling back, I'd be all "Good! Learn a lesson from it!" I certainly wouldn't throw him a party, that'd just encourage him to be more spoilt. Has this guy never heard of basic psychology? Maybe he should stick to the three-act structure until he learns how to tell a proper story.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:53
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Lt. Danger posted:This story doesn't make any sense. If my wastrel son ran off, lost all his money and came crawling back, I'd be all "Good! Learn a lesson from it!" I certainly wouldn't throw him a party, that'd just encourage him to be more spoilt. Has this guy never heard of basic psychology? Maybe he should stick to the three-act structure until he learns how to tell a proper story. Humanity had no business poking around Mars in the first place.  I know what stories are, I just don't think losing all Reaper tech is in any way necessary.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:55
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like, yes, you can rationalize this, you can go "Hmm, well, technically we don't need to blow up the relays, since x, y, x", and whatever. Or you can say that blowing the relays up is a fantastic visual image to end the series on, and effectively captures the series themes of self-determination without even saying a single word, which is probably more interesting than some guy rambling over the credits screen.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:55
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Inverness posted:I have to fundamentally disagree with you. The relays are not holding people back. The relays allowed different races separated by vast distances to come together and pool their knowledge to better themselves. I don't see how they're "obviously holding everyone back". Why is this guy just sowing seeds all over the place? It's stupid. Of course the seeds aren't going to grow if you sow them on thorns, or hard ground, or where birds can eat them. Just sow them all where the soil's good and fertile. How can I be expected to immerse myself when this farmer doesn't even know how to farm?!
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Mar 9, 2014 23:56
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Fag Boy Jim posted:like, yes, you can rationalize this, you can go "Hmm, well, technically we don't need to blow up the relays, since x, y, x", and whatever. It would have been a fantastic visual image signifying self-determination if it hadn't previously been used as a fantastical visual image signifying sudden, apocalyptic extinction.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:59
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Inverness posted:I have to fundamentally disagree with you. The relays are not holding people back. The relays allowed different races separated by vast distances to come together and pool their knowledge to better themselves. I don't see how they're "obviously holding everyone back". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvrIFIjTGt0 Sovereign tells you that's what the Relays are for, dude. You can only explore the bits of space near the Relays, and people are really scared of what one day may come out of one of them. Could be humans, could be loving Rachni.
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Mar 10, 2014 00:00
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Bongo Bill posted:It would have been a fantastic visual image signifying self-determination if it hadn't previously been used as a fantastical visual image signifying sudden, apocalyptic extinction. Well, it didn't. Like, even in the pre-EC endings, you see the planets survive the crucible blast (unless you hosed up).
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Mar 10, 2014 00:00
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Destroying the Mass Relays was an excellent ending for the series. The mistake was in making them explode. If an explosion means something different the second time around, it needs clumsy explanation for why it's different, and if it doesn't mean something different the second time around, then it means obliterating the setting rather than liberating it. Edit: the clumsy explanation was given in the regular ending, but people missed it, so in the Extended Cut they made it clumsier and also took away the reason it was a good idea in the first place. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 00:07
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Fag Boy Jim posted:like, yes, you can rationalize this, you can go "Hmm, well, technically we don't need to blow up the relays, since x, y, x", and whatever.
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Mar 10, 2014 00:18
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Crappy Jack posted:Actually, the problem with the ending was that it WASN'T written by committee. All the other writers were basically locked out of the room while two guys decided what Mass Effect was REALLY about the whole time, all by themselves. And those two guys decided it was really about Starchild. I think you're making a mistake by cutting the ending off as its own thing. I mean, if you get 30 people together to write a book, and then two dudes go off and write the ending, that's still being written by a committee. What you said sums up why writing by committee is bad, because you have a bunch of people in a board room all thinking 'The story is REALLY about this!' which is why you end up with something that varies wildly in quality and tone, with little or no consistency. It's why some parts of Mass Effect are good and some are bad. The best part is that no matter how obviously dumb and bad it is, SOMEONE will defend it because then they get to act smug like "You didn't GET IT? I guess it's TOO DEEP FOR YOU" like that one guy who compared Mass Effect to the loving bible. The loving bible. The same story that gave us weeaboo fantasy writers-pet Kai Leng, is like THE BIBLE.
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Mar 10, 2014 00:20
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Well, the Bible was written by like 30 different people....
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Mar 10, 2014 00:20
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Bongo Bill posted:Destroying the Mass Relays was an excellent ending for the series. The mistake was in making them explode. If an explosion means something different the second time around, it needs clumsy explanation for why it's different, and if it doesn't mean something different the second time around, then it means obliterating the setting rather than liberating it. It... isn't really clumsy? You see the planet not getting blown up by the blast. That is literally all you need, you can theorize and fanwank why this happens, but that isn't really important.
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Mar 10, 2014 00:25
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PootieTang posted:I think you're making a mistake by cutting the ending off as its own thing. I mean, if you get 30 people together to write a book, and then two dudes go off and write the ending, that's still being written by a committee. What you said sums up why writing by committee is bad, because you have a bunch of people in a board room all thinking 'The story is REALLY about this!' which is why you end up with something that varies wildly in quality and tone, with little or no consistency. It's why some parts of Mass Effect are good and some are bad. This is a good post. I agree PootieTang. One question though: what is the black goo? e: apparently it's some kind of fedora Lt. Danger fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 00:26
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Bongo Bill posted:Well, the Bible was written by like 30 different people.... And it massively contradicts itself constantly, has terrible morals/messages and basically boils down to a way to make money off of people too dumb to know better. So actually maybe that analogy was more accurate than I thought. Also, some parts of the bible are of acceptable quality, or even good like that one guy who used a donkey's jawbone to beat off a bunch of dudes and steal their foreskins, much like how Mass Effect has it's moments of brilliance. So basically when thinking about Mass Effect it might be good to think of it like the bible, in that if you think too hard about it, none of it makes sense. It's better to just avoid people who are really into talking about it too. PootieTang fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 00:27
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The Unnamed One posted:Sovereign tells you that's what the Relays are for, dude. You can only explore the bits of space near the Relays, and people are really scared of what one day may come out of one of them. Could be humans, could be loving Rachni. People stick to space near the relays simply because of the mechanics of normal mass effect FTL. Destroying the relays would limit the amount of space that can be easily traveled to by several orders of magnitude. Even having normal FTL engines on the same level of the Reapers wouldn't make up for this. The problem you highlight, not knowing what has access to the relay network, is an entirely different issue. For example, if the relays never existed and people were advocated to build this network that would allow them to slingshot around known space so easily without months or years of FTL, no one in their right mind would be arguing against it. The problem that needs to be solved is ignorance of what has access to the network, since in normal circumstances society would have mapped out space before building the network in it instead of allowing unknown entities to take advantage of the rapid transportation the network offers. Fag Boy Jim posted:Or you can say that blowing the relays up is a fantastic visual image to end the series on, and effectively captures the series themes of self-determination without even saying a single word, which is probably more interesting than some guy rambling over the credits screen. Self-determination is a nice concept to apply here, but you can take them to an unreasonable extreme. Ignoring technology just because it wasn't your idea first is pretty dumb. Inverness fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Mar 10, 2014 |
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Mar 10, 2014 00:27
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Look, when I'm agreeing with Lt. Danger about the relays being blown up being Cool and Good then you're probably on the losing side of the argument. Well, hope this helps.
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Mar 10, 2014 00:40
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Fag Boy Jim posted:It... isn't really clumsy? You see the planet not getting blown up by the blast. That is literally all you need, you can theorize and fanwank why this happens, but that isn't really important. For what it's worth, I agree with you. The difficulty is how it fits in with everything else. There's a reason why so many people, when they got to the highly evocative image of your crew looking out at the lush vistas of this new undiscovered (cyber-)jungle world, immediately interpreted that as an implication that their favorite characters were going to starve to death on Gilligan's Planet. And I don't think it's because they're turbo-spergs. I would say that any given shot from the original ending except for Joker's cyborg hat and that photo of Tali works just fine in a vacuum, but the problem is that they're not in a vacuum, but at the end of ninety hours of game establishing different meanings for many of the symbols involved. Confusion was the inevitable result.
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Mar 10, 2014 00:42
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i want a dlc that focuses on the Reaper Story/Campaign and you get to play as Harbinger and reset the galaxy.
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Mar 10, 2014 00:59
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Blowing up the relays was pointless given that any game set in the universe after that will almost certainly conjure up some new Macguffin that does exactly the same thing. It functionally makes no difference. If you're going to argue that the story is somehow more enjoyable because they blow up the relays in the last 30 seconds then, uh, good luck.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:06
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Why can't I just kill the Reapers and use their leftover tools as I see fit? Control is about Shepard using the Reapers to what he/she feels is right, whether it's giving the many a voice or giving a strong leader to destroy any who threaten the many, why can't the "gently caress you dad" aspect of the Destroy ending be, "gently caress the Reapers and Catalyst, we can build our own future where won't destroy ourselves like that popup kept spewing. And in this future we are going to include the relays and Citadel, but they will be built and earned by our own hands, and used the way we want them to be used, not used like those Reaper fucks want them to be used."
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Mar 10, 2014 01:07
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JawKnee posted:Blowing up the relays was pointless given that any game set in the universe after that will almost certainly conjure up some new Macguffin that does exactly the same thing. It functionally makes no difference. I don't think there should be more games set in the Mass Effect universe.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:09
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Rincewind posted:Unlike the relays, etc., clothing and fire are not consistently depicted as a symbol of the prior generation manipulating younger generations for their own benefit. The relays aren't either. They're used without reservation throughout the trilogy and are only manipulated by reaper forces once in ME1. In ME3 the idea that they were made by and could be controlled by Reapers (or anyone) is entirely forgotten. By all means push the citadel into the sun, though.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:09
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Fag Boy Jim posted:I don't think there should be more games set in the Mass Effect universe. ok cool
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Mar 10, 2014 01:09
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sassassin posted:By all means push the citadel into the sun, though. agreed, it was a lazy way to show us bare snippets of the species of the new IP without bothering to show us much of anything
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Mar 10, 2014 01:11
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Is the idea of a story that ends without going into endless sequels and EU nonsense really that insane to people
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Mar 10, 2014 01:11
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Fag Boy Jim posted:Is the idea of a story that ends without going into endless sequels and EU nonsense really that insane to people is wanting something to continue because you liked it that insane to you?
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Mar 10, 2014 01:12
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I still remember being alllmost okay with them putting the universe to rest and having a solid ending to the franchise, and then a giant popup appears telling me to BUY THE DLC AND CONTINUE THE ADVENTURES and then I remembered that nothing ever ends and they're gonna milk this poo poo for every drop.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:14
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Fag Boy Jim posted:Is the idea of a story that ends without going into endless sequels and EU nonsense really that insane to people JawKnee posted:is wanting something to continue because you liked it that insane to you? I'd like the series to end on a high note, rather than on a lovely one which would be the inevitable outcome of endless EU. That said, ME3 sucked, so I'd be cool with another game (or dlc) that wrapped up post-reaper life.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:15
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Fag Boy Jim posted:Is the idea of a story that ends without going into endless sequels and EU nonsense really that insane to people Is wanting a series you enjoyed to not end on a note of massive tragedy and a future of incredible uncertainty really that insane to you? The relays exploding asks more questions than it answers and if anything necessitates a sequel more than the alternative.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:17
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Fag Boy Jim posted:Is the idea of a story that ends without going into endless sequels and EU nonsense really that insane to people And of course since they're making Mass Effect 4 anyway, I'm doubting how deliberate that choice really was.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:18
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Fag Boy Jim posted:Is the idea of a story that ends without going into endless sequels and EU nonsense really that insane to people As it is, I'm still OK with the series ending, just for an entirely different reason. I doubt I'm going to buy Mass Effect 4.
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Mar 10, 2014 01:21
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