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NikkolasKing posted:...and LOTR is about humility and the underdog. Saruman being a failed tyrant is crucial to the story's tone I think. It's been years since I read LOTR, and I never thought of Saruman in this context. I'll also have to mention it to my brother, who always disliked the exclusion of the Scouring of the Shire from the movies despite understanding all the movie-making reasons for Jackson to do so.
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Feb 7, 2014 22:32
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First time reading the Hobbit for the kids. Got to 'Riddles in the Dark' with my 7 and 5 year old last night. Gollum is creepy, I had to lie with them to get them to go to sleep, and today I was repeatedly quizzed on the exact wording of the dark riddle by the oldest. They are desperate to know what happens next. Another generation hooked.
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Feb 7, 2014 23:17
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On the story elements referenced in the previous page, a few more: Middle Earth = Midgard Numenor = Atlantis (Atalante) Ring motif -> Niebelungenlieid, Ring Cycle Probably a fair amount of material reflecting the Eddas
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Feb 8, 2014 01:05
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Of course, Atlantis. See what I mean, it's the obvious ones I keep forgetting.
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Feb 8, 2014 03:20
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Not from myth, but also a fairly obvious inspiration: Gondor = East Rome Arnor = West Rome If you really want to go in depth into the mythological background of Tolkien's work, I recommend Tom Shippey's The Road to Middle-Earth.
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Feb 9, 2014 20:45
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Effectronica posted:and the Norwegian folktale East of the Sun, West of the Moon has a man who can turn into a bear and back again. East of the Sun, West of the Moon is basically Cupid and Psyche. But and at the end, as sun rises, the witches and trolls were so full of rage (that the bear/enchanted prince got to marry the beautiful girl) they broke into pieces. The parts were scattered so far and wide they could not be put back together again.
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Feb 10, 2014 00:42
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Also there was Avalone on Tol Eressea. As to the cities, Tolkien also builds in other elements that might best be described as esoteric, e.g., Gondor is the city with seven levels, Anduin passes between the cities of Sun and Moon (Minas Ithil, Minas Anor), the sword of the king is the sword that unites Sun and Moon (Anar, Isil).
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Feb 11, 2014 02:30
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Hi friends! The second Hobbit movie was such a bit old disappointment that I started to re-read LOTR for the first time in years and am loving it again. The thing I like most about the books is how, every time I read them, I find something new to be interested in, and something new to not care about (sorry, Numenoreans. It's your turn). Anyway, I was wondering whether Tolkien ever specified how Beleriand fell into the sea? I am trying to imagine how a whole region disappears.
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Mar 9, 2014 10:19
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SUPERFINE CONCUBINE posted:Hi friends! The second Hobbit movie was such a bit old disappointment that I started to re-read LOTR for the first time in years and am loving it again. The thing I like most about the books is how, every time I read them, I find something new to be interested in, and something new to not care about (sorry, Numenoreans. It's your turn). Anyway, I was wondering whether Tolkien ever specified how Beleriand fell into the sea? I am trying to imagine how a whole region disappears. I don't know. I always guessed it to be a massive earthquake followed by a tsunami. But yes, I'm also re-reading LotR for the first time in years and there's so much detail packed in there. I often forget that PJ's adaptations cut out a lot of stuff, beyond obvious chapters like The Old Forest and the Scouring of the Shire.
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Mar 9, 2014 11:26
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Yes! I'd forgotten that it was actually Gandalf's idea to go into Moria. I'm up to to Lórien now, and really enjoy the detail that Haldir's brothers can't speak Westron. They're just like "why would we ever leave here? Best place in the world!  " despite being probably at least hundreds of years old.Also Legolas is a huge dick.
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Mar 9, 2014 11:49
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SUPERFINE CONCUBINE posted:Hi friends! The second Hobbit movie was such a bit old disappointment that I started to re-read LOTR for the first time in years and am loving it again. The thing I like most about the books is how, every time I read them, I find something new to be interested in, and something new to not care about (sorry, Numenoreans. It's your turn). Anyway, I was wondering whether Tolkien ever specified how Beleriand fell into the sea? I am trying to imagine how a whole region disappears. Though Beleriand sank during the Valar war with Morgoth, so like the guy says above it would probably have been more like some hellish combination of earthquake/tsunami/storm surge/volcano/meteorite impact all happening at once, rather than storm surges chomping off a bit at a time. The UK has a fair few lost lands that Tolkien could have been thinking of as well, like the Drowned Hundreds in Cardigan Bay and Lyonesse off the coast of Cornwall. And drowned villages by the score, often with legends of church bells you can hear ringing during storms.
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Mar 9, 2014 12:55
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Tolkien never talks about lots of people dying because of the loss of beleriand (but maybe I'm dumb and it's implied) so I always imagined it happening kind of slow, or at least in some way that gave people time to evacuate. Also there's those spots that never ended up underwater. I can't name them off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure that they weren't exactly the tallest spots around in general. So there's some funky magic stuff goin on probably too.
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Mar 9, 2014 17:26
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SHISHKABOB posted:Also there's those spots that never ended up underwater. I can't name them off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure that they weren't exactly the tallest spots around in general. So there's some funky magic stuff goin on probably too. Yep, I think the hill where Turin's mother and/or sister was buried is one of those spots. (Can't remember the exact details right now.)
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Mar 9, 2014 17:32
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Yeah. The mound that became Tol Morwen was right next to the ravine of a wildly energetic river, so you know there were huge elevation changes all around that region, and the tomb would have by no means been the tallest thing even in the immediate area.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:34
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SHISHKABOB posted:Tolkien never talks about lots of people dying because of the loss of beleriand (but maybe I'm dumb and it's implied) so I always imagined it happening kind of slow, or at least in some way that gave people time to evacuate. Also there's those spots that never ended up underwater. I can't name them off the top of my head but I'm pretty sure that they weren't exactly the tallest spots around in general. So there's some funky magic stuff goin on probably too. I always imagined that it was slow too, for the same reason. Like, there were earthquakes and then the coasts were inundated, but inland the ground began to get waterlogged, then eventually sank. I probably think this because no one seems to be in a hurry in Tolkien (man they faffed about in Rivendell a long time).
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Mar 10, 2014 08:31
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^ Yeah, but it's lucky Frodo and Sam just happened to be about to toss the Ring into Mount Doom when Aragorn and co. were making their last stand against Sauron. Talk about good timing.
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Mar 10, 2014 12:02
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I thought Beleriand getting hosed was quick because that's the explicit reason the Valar didn't want to confront Morgoth with the Elves and Men and Dwarves doing their things? Like, literally every time the Valar fought Morgoth, the struggle had been so great as to permanently reshape large areas of the world.
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Mar 10, 2014 16:34
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Gologle posted:I thought Beleriand getting hosed was quick because that's the explicit reason the Valar didn't want to confront Morgoth with the Elves and Men and Dwarves doing their things? Like, literally every time the Valar fought Morgoth, the struggle had been so great as to permanently reshape large areas of the world. You're probably right, I always just sort of giggled at the idea of Shelob floating away on a spiderweb boat or something.
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Mar 10, 2014 17:04
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Imagine her ballooning and welcome to your worst nightmare.
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Mar 10, 2014 19:36
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Anyone else wish their was more information on Ungoliant's backstory or what eventually became of her? She was neither Maia nor Valor yet her origins remain ambiguous, similarly to Tom Bombadil. She was also one of the very few if not the only one who was capable of and actually did subdue/defeat Morgoth single handedly. Do you think if Tolkien ever did get to finish the Silmarillion he would've left her fate unknown just like Shelob's?
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Mar 14, 2014 00:58
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She ate herself eventually.
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Mar 14, 2014 01:22
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Nah, detailing everything out with all the backstory and information you could ever want is a good way to kill the mystery and liveliness of a mythology like Middle Earth.
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Mar 14, 2014 01:50
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SHISHKABOB posted:She ate herself eventually. 
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Mar 14, 2014 02:30
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Ungoal posted:Anyone else wish their was more information on Ungoliant's backstory or what eventually became of her? She was neither Maia nor Valor yet her origins remain ambiguous, similarly to Tom Bombadil. She was also one of the very few if not the only one who was capable of and actually did subdue/defeat Morgoth single handedly. Do you think if Tolkien ever did get to finish the Silmarillion he would've left her fate unknown just like Shelob's? I love Ungoliant, because of the mystery. No one knows where she came from, or where she went, but for a time there, even the Dark Lord trembled before her. Melkor is such a punk.
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Mar 14, 2014 03:06
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He really is such a punk, and I really like this image from the previous page that someone else posted:  cause he looks like a big baby butt head and then he's all "I AM SCARY" and then eventually he looks like that one piece of artwork where Fingolfin is fighting him and he's got this super ugly mug and lame lookin outfit and his big dumb hammer.
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Mar 14, 2014 03:12
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Even more so, I think Tolkien implies Melkor's rebellion starts with what he sees as his rejection by Varda, who chooses Manwe as her consort. So, all evil in the world stems from a crush scorned.
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Mar 14, 2014 03:32
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redshirt posted:I love Ungoliant, because of the mystery. No one knows where she came from, or where she went, but for a time there, even the Dark Lord trembled before her. I love how different artists used this little fact when creating depictions/illustrations of Ungoliant:   She's truly the epitome of nightmares in Tolkien's legendarium.
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Mar 14, 2014 03:48
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Probably the most destructive and terrifying force ever, and did one of the most harmful things ever to the world, but ends up not doing much else other than being hungry and fat all the time.
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Mar 14, 2014 04:02
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SHISHKABOB posted:He really is such a punk, and I really like this image from the previous page that someone else posted: Who's the artist on those? EDIT: nevermind saw link on prior page. They really remind me of Tolkien's art style. I just got a copy of the 75th anniversary Hobbit with Tolkien's illustrations, and I really love his art style. It has the same "a professional artist would think this is horrible work but somehow it's still profoundly evocative" thing going on, but visually instead of verbally.
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Mar 14, 2014 04:19
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Ungoal posted:Anyone else wish their was more information on Ungoliant's backstory or what eventually became of her? She was neither Maia nor Valor yet her origins remain ambiguous, similarly to Tom Bombadil. She was probably a Maia just like Tom, the Eagles, the Ents. Anything sentient in MIddle Earth is either Ainu or Child of Iluvatar
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Mar 14, 2014 10:22
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You've just opened up a whole can of worms there.
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Mar 14, 2014 10:33
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rypakal posted:She was probably a Maia just like Tom, the Eagles, the Ents. Anything sentient in MIddle Earth is either Ainu or Child of Iluvatar She's not a Maia. Melkor was sincerely afraid of her, and used her to gain his revenge since he could not do it on his own. She was leagues beyond the Maia.
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Mar 14, 2014 13:53
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Only after she ate the light of the two trees. But basically I just take the Silmarillion as the Elves flawed and not 100 percent omniscient tale.
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Mar 14, 2014 14:09
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redshirt posted:She's not a Maia. Melkor was sincerely afraid of her, and used her to gain his revenge since he could not do it on his own. She was leagues beyond the Maia. The line between Maiar and Valar seems blurry at times, and Ungoliant seems to be one of them. I think she was certainly a spirit created by Eru, and not merely a sub-creation (like the Dwarves). I don't have The Silmarillion in front of me, but I seem to recall that not all Maiar aligned with either Manwë or Melkor. Tom Bombadil is analogous, though obviously more benevolent.
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Mar 14, 2014 15:07
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The Quenta Simarillion Chapter Eight: The Darkening of Valinor posted:There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Oromë, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it. The elves have no idea. "Emerged from darkness? Maybe Melkor corrupted her? Everything is his fault anyways, so let's just blame him like we always do..."
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Mar 14, 2014 15:31
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Spoilers Below posted:The elves have no idea. "Emerged from darkness? Maybe Melkor corrupted her? Everything is his fault anyways, so let's just blame him like we always do..." That's the cool thing about Tolkien's world. All we know is what survived from the ancient texts of elves and men. The story of the Silmarillion and LOTR could be completely different if told from the perspective of someone like Sauron or Morgoth.
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Mar 14, 2014 16:33
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Ynglaur posted:The line between Maiar and Valar seems blurry at times, and Ungoliant seems to be one of them. I think she was certainly a spirit created by Eru, and not merely a sub-creation (like the Dwarves). I don't have The Silmarillion in front of me, but I seem to recall that not all Maiar aligned with either Manwë or Melkor. Tom Bombadil is analogous, though obviously more benevolent. This is what I believe. Sort of like a natural being created by eru when designing arda.
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Mar 14, 2014 17:00
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NikkolasKing posted:If anyone wants to know what is in Unfinished Tales
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Mar 14, 2014 17:39
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They are all Ainur of some kind, in my opinion. Tom, Ungoliant, Goldberry. (Everyone forgets Goldberry!)
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Mar 14, 2014 18:08
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Catsplosion posted:This is what I believe. Sort of like a natural being created by eru when designing arda. Yes, called Maia.  Tom was the first. Maybe Ungoliant was the second. Then Melkor came along. Then those wannabe Valar showed up and started ruining all the fun. #historywrittenbythevictorse: I do like the theory that Ungoliant was actually a Vala and that the Valar refused to tell the elves that. e: Ainu or Children, that's all you get. Tolkien wrote himself into a fancy little box that makes creatures like Tom and Ungoliant (and the orcs in general) problematic. BUT WE CAN HAMMER THEM IN. rypakal fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 18:17
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