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DarkCrawler posted:So how come we Europeans were such filthy disease-ridden hobos? Greater population? Better links to the rest of the world? Both? Main reason was that Old Worlders had many different species of tamed animals that could infect humans with various diseases, and trade routes that spread those diseases around. And on top of that European cities were just hobo camps compared to Arabic, Chinese or Ancient Mediterranean cities with running water and baths. ^ 
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Mar 14, 2014 16:28
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Panas posted:The Mongol invasions are usually exaggerated in their total death count. He really didn't kill as many people as he and his descendants are claimed to have killed. They co-opted much of their opposition, and they weren't as quick to wipe a city off the map as is usually portrayed. Surprise surprise, dead people don't pay tribute. Sure he killed a lot of people, but it's not a good comparison to the devastation that the Native populations of the new world experienced. We don't have very reliable means to compare the two.
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Mar 14, 2014 16:31
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Hogge Wild posted:Literal saints were even filthier than your average Spaniard, so it would have been even worse. I meant in terms of them not intending to loot the hell out of the places they landed at!  Hogge Wild posted:And on top of that European cities were just hobo camps compared to Arabic, Chinese or Ancient Mediterranean cities with running water and baths. Or Mexican cities, for that matter. Tenochtitlan had trash collectors and street cleaners!
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Mar 14, 2014 16:37
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Kurtofan posted:I've read that the Spaniards were really filthy and that they smelled awful to the Aztecs. content: 
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Mar 14, 2014 16:54
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It's worth mentioning, however, that all the above civilizations were agricultural-based civilizations, and that typically dry periods are associated with global cooling, which tends to lock up more water in the form of ice and snow, and decreases the intensity of the global precipitation cycle. The current unprecedented period is associated with both the existence of an industrialized global civilization and global warming. So there's no telling what will happen to our civilization as the century progresses. It certainly won't be very pleasant.
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Mar 14, 2014 17:07
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Guavanaut posted:politically-loaded maps: I've read that the Spaniards were really filthy I mean during the conquest of Mexico.
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Mar 14, 2014 17:08
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DrSunshine posted:It's worth mentioning, however, that all the above civilizations were agricultural-based civilizations, and that typically dry periods are associated with global cooling, which tends to lock up more water in the form of ice and snow, and decreases the intensity of the global precipitation cycle. The current unprecedented period is associated with both the existence of an industrialized global civilization and global warming. So there's no telling what will happen to our civilization as the century progresses.
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Mar 14, 2014 17:19
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DrSunshine posted:It certainly won't be very pleasant.
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Mar 14, 2014 17:21
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A Buttery Pastry posted:If global cooling leads to the collapse of civilizations, then surely global warming leads to a flourishing It does -- for pre-industrial agricultural civilizations! The Medieval Warm period saw a huge population increase in Europe as more areas that were, in cooler times, less amenable to agriculture, became wetter and warmer and increased the available arable land. Boiled Water posted:Lets be fair here: For the majority of the population it already is very unpleasant. Yeah, now is not a very good time to be investing in beachfront property in Kiribati, or to start a rice paddy in Bangladesh, or a farm in Sub-Saharan Africa. 
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Mar 14, 2014 17:35
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Kassad posted:I meant in terms of them not intending to loot the hell out of the places they landed at! I think he's referring to the beliefs of some evangelical Christians of the time that never washing made you more holy, hence a saint would never bath compared to the conquistador's occasional bath.
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Mar 14, 2014 17:40
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Kassad posted:Smallpox alone was deadlier than the plague, and it wasn't the only disease brought in by Europeans and their livestock. You do know 125-150 million people died in the Black Death, right?
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Mar 14, 2014 17:41
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Riso posted:You do know 125-150 million people died in the Black Death, right? Yes, but in relative terms, more people in the America died. The pre-Columbian population of the Americas was somewhere between 50-100 million, and the smallpox and other European-brought pandemics killed upwards of about 90% of the population. In comparison, the Black Death killed about 30-60% of the European population.
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Mar 14, 2014 17:46
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Also 50% of China and 30% of the Middle East, with some areas having comparable death rates of 90%. Let's not pretend this was just a European problem.
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Mar 14, 2014 17:59
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Kassad posted:Or Mexican cities, for that matter. Tenochtitlan had trash collectors and street cleaners! All of these non-European civilizations sound like nancy boys to me. No wonder the Europeans won. In all seriousness, good personal hygiene by itself probably didn't help much against massive epidemics, as evidenced by the fact that the Middle East was almost just as badly affected by the plague as Europe.
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Mar 14, 2014 18:05
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Phlegmish posted:All of these non-European civilizations sound like nancy boys to me. No wonder the Europeans won. This post got me wondering: do any major religions have advice on how to deal with plagues? The Abrahamic religions are choosy with things like diet and hygiene for health purposes, even if it wasn't understood as such when the laws were written. But are there, say, quarantine measures or the like mentioned in holy books? Seems like it'd be some handy thing to have around.
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Mar 14, 2014 18:55
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Count Roland posted:This post got me wondering: do any major religions have advice on how to deal with plagues? The Abrahamic religions are choosy with things like diet and hygiene for health purposes, even if it wasn't understood as such when the laws were written. But are there, say, quarantine measures or the like mentioned in holy books? Seems like it'd be some handy thing to have around. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_hygienical_jurisprudence
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Mar 14, 2014 18:57
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Is there something on that page about plagues that I'm not seeing?
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Mar 14, 2014 19:01
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I don't know about the religion itself, but medieval Islamic scholars definitely did write about plague prevention.
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Mar 14, 2014 19:15
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Count Roland posted:Is there something on that page about plagues that I'm not seeing?  My bad.
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Mar 14, 2014 19:15
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Where did you go? From what I've read, it's much more concentrated in the larger cities, while basically not a thing in touristy places like Crete. Though I think the fact that they're so popular with the police should be a consideration too, that sort of thing can act as a significant multiplier to what such a group is willing to attempt. Patras and Thessaloniki, hardly small cities. I stayed at a Greek friend's place in Patras for a few days and hung out with him in the city too, so it's not just a case of "Western European tourist lounging at the hotel and beach all day".
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Mar 14, 2014 19:44
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Pakled posted:The Old World was full of agrarian societies where people lived in close proximity to live animals their whole lives. This was just as true in the Americas.
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Mar 14, 2014 19:55
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Deltasquid posted:Patras and Thessaloniki, hardly small cities. I stayed at a Greek friend's place in Patras for a few days and hung out with him in the city too, so it's not just a case of "Western European tourist lounging at the hotel and beach all day". Guess it's much more localized then.Sheng-ji Yang posted:This was just as true in the Americas.
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Mar 14, 2014 20:05
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It's not even the close proximity, it's there being animals at all. Nearly all the fauna that might have been worth domesticating had been hunted to extinction in the Americas thousands of years before civilization developed.
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Mar 14, 2014 20:07
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Riso posted:You do know 125-150 million people died in the Black Death, right? Seriously dude, go read 1491. Sheng-ji Yang posted:This was just as true in the Americas. No it wasn't. Pre-columbian Americans had very little in the realm of livestock (Llama's being the one sort-of exception), and they weren't cohabiting with said animals.
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Mar 14, 2014 20:13
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Koramei posted:It's not even the close proximity, it's there being animals at all. Nearly all the fauna that might have been worth domesticating had been hunted to extinction in the Americas thousands of years before civilization developed.
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Mar 14, 2014 20:18
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DrSunshine posted:It does -- for pre-industrial agricultural civilizations! The Medieval Warm period saw a huge population increase in Europe as more areas that were, in cooler times, less amenable to agriculture, became wetter and warmer and increased the available arable land. It's not even as simple as warm = good for agricultural civilizations, there's a bunch of factors that make it good or bad in each individual case.
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Mar 15, 2014 00:03
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Riso posted:"Engineered" This is not how slash and burn agriculture was practiced in the America's, nor anywhere traditionally.   This is the map thread right? Here are some maps I pulled from here http://www.geocurrents.info/place/southeast-asia/dams-and-the-ignored-ethnic-conflict-of-northern-burma which stole them from here http://www.irrawaddy.org/
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Mar 15, 2014 03:32
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Squalid posted:This is the map thread right? Here are some maps I pulled from here http://www.geocurrents.info/place/southeast-asia/dams-and-the-ignored-ethnic-conflict-of-northern-burma which stole them from here http://www.irrawaddy.org/ I just realized that one of the writers on that site wrote some of my geography textbooks. 
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Mar 15, 2014 04:42
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Getting back to more maps:  (via Wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Administrative_divisions_of_the_People%27s_Republic_of_China There are currently more counties (and equivalents) in the US than in China.
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Mar 15, 2014 22:25
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Mar 16, 2014 20:42
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I've spent hours studying those maps in the past, they're awesome. I love the attention to detail.   Content: 
Kamrat fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 20:56
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Welp, this finally proves that space in Star Trek is 2-dimensional.
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Mar 16, 2014 21:01
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How come the Federation has these territories on the other side of the Klingons/Romulans? Why would the Romulans tolerate the Federation nearly completely encircling them? Several of the more isolated systems would have fallen to "freak accidents" a long time ago, no way the Romulans would allow that. And why have they colonized all worlds "east/south" of their homeworld, but some of the closest systems to Romulus are part of the Federation? The same for the Cardassion, only they expanded "south/west", leaving many systems close to Cardassia entirely unclaimed. As an aside, no wonder they occupied Bajor, it is closer to Cardassia than 90% of their colonies. And isn't the Cardassian Union supposed to border the Romulan Star Empire? And just to repeat the pattern, Qo'nos is relative close to the borders of the Klingon Empire. Did nobody but the Federation bother to expand in all directions? And I wonder how exactly the Breen managed a surprise attack on Earth. Where is the Breen homeworld on this map? I cannot find it.
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Mar 16, 2014 21:23
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Torrannor posted:How come the Federation has these territories on the other side of the Klingons/Romulans? Why would the Romulans tolerate the Federation nearly completely encircling them? Several of the more isolated systems would have fallen to "freak accidents" a long time ago, no way the Romulans would allow that. And why have they colonized all worlds "east/south" of their homeworld, but some of the closest systems to Romulus are part of the Federation? Neither can Starfleet!
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Mar 16, 2014 21:27
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Torrannor posted:How come the Federation has these territories on the other side of the Klingons/Romulans? Why would the Romulans tolerate the Federation nearly completely encircling them? Several of the more isolated systems would have fallen to "freak accidents" a long time ago, no way the Romulans would allow that. And why have they colonized all worlds "east/south" of their homeworld, but some of the closest systems to Romulus are part of the Federation? I have no clue at all! And neither, it seems, did the Star Trek writers. The galactic maps from the canon sources are not very clear, consistent, or helpful. 
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Mar 16, 2014 21:31
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Torrannor posted:And I wonder how exactly the Breen managed a surprise attack on Earth. Where is the Breen homeworld on this map? I cannot find it. I see a cut-off "REEN" on the far left of the map, close to the Cardassian "northwest" boarder. It's probably that.
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Mar 16, 2014 21:33
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Mar 16, 2014 21:38
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Interesting that S. Ossetia is demarcated but not Transnistria and Abkhazia.
America Inc. fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 21:47
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Torrannor posted:And I wonder how exactly the Breen managed a surprise attack on Earth. Open your eyes, sheeple. 
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Mar 16, 2014 23:28
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I have a map that I bought in Lithuania that has all of the contested nations in Europe (Transnistria; South Assetia; Abkhasia, Nagorno-Karabach etc) marked. Its not like I bought it from some weird shop in some weird town; it was from a chain book shop on Klaipeda's main street. Not sure if the thread has any interest in it; the only other unique thing is that all of the country and city names are written in Lithuanian... Just dragged it out; its a little loaded in that it marks Kosovo as being independent while it labels the various Georgian, Armenian and Moldovian states with stripes... e: Lord Hydronium posted:Open your eyes, sheeple. the NEW WORLD ORDER doesn't want us too; why do you think they've hosed up the forum
IceAgeComing fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 23:36
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