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ErichZahn posted:A thought occurred to me. Where the gently caress are the Quiescent in all this? Keeping their head down, like always.
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Mar 13, 2014 03:10
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Right, but... Paradox should deserve equal billing with Cover. So the continued existence of the Quiescent would yeah you got me. On a related note, the Arch Symbol denoting a Sotto Voce Cabal would be a circular depression at the center of the arch. It's an unmarked mark. Big Hubris fucked around with this message at 05:35 on Mar 13, 2014 |
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Mar 13, 2014 05:27
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Ferrinus posted:A greengrocer is not a warrior in their daily life according to Arrow philosophy. The Arrows don't afford respect to everything that could figuratively be described as a conflict. There are conflicts, notably the Duel Arcane, that Arrows regard to be childish diversions. You're not suddenly an Arrow because you bake, program, or yodel with your brow furrowed and biceps flexed. "Warrior monk" isn't an affectation you blithely apply to whatever you're doing. Despite ideological safeguards, Arrows suffer from mission creep as much as other militant groups. SERIOUS EXAMPLE: Military operations for real hegemonic powers involve hearts and minds and infrastructure repair and boring IT stuff to keep it all together. SILLY EXAMPLE: "Real life superheroes" who realize that they can't "fight crime" apply their crime-fightyism to handing out food and blankets. Then you have Phoenix Jones, who kicked a drunk and pepper-sprayed some protesters because what else are you going to do when nobody plays the Joker? Similarly, Ladder lictors may be nebbish lawyers, but a few of them are probably Magic Judge Dredd. Mystagogue censors . . . well, Khonsu knows how to *take* a beating. One of the things about being a mage is that you're smart enough to mas up roles and contexts, and it's ultimate the hierarchy and the symbolic gravity of your affiliations that restrict who you are. In the Arrow, they try to make sure that if you can't be Batman, you'll at least audit Batman Studies even if you're all about game theory.
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Mar 14, 2014 08:06
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MalcolmSheppard posted:Despite ideological safeguards, Arrows suffer from mission creep as much as other militant groups. SERIOUS EXAMPLE: Military operations for real hegemonic powers involve hearts and minds and infrastructure repair and boring IT stuff to keep it all together. SILLY EXAMPLE: "Real life superheroes" who realize that they can't "fight crime" apply their crime-fightyism to handing out food and blankets. Then you have Phoenix Jones, who kicked a drunk and pepper-sprayed some protesters because what else are you going to do when nobody plays the Joker? I mean, the vagaries of this corrupt and fallen world are always going to necessitate that some Arrows learn how to work a spreadsheet or fast-talk a client. I'm just saying that that sort of stuff wouldn't really be an Arrow's thing, like it wouldn't be what they joined the Order to do or what wins them rank and respect (as opposed to gratefulness, owed favors, etc) among other Arrows. The Praetorian Ministry definitely has dedicated propagandists, video game developers, etc because they're (sort of) actual army, but the Arrow is more like a dojo or a bizarre and ahistorical "fighter's guild". Of course, mages themselves are so rare that I assume that someone who was really gung ho about game theory tried and to join the Arrow would be welcomed in and slowly molded rather than sent away.
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Mar 14, 2014 21:49
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I've typed multiple posts explaining why Ferrinus is wrong, but none which explain how. The Adamantine Arrow teaches game theory to it's recruits. This is a fact. The Praetorian Ministry does not code video-games. They have a Fallen World, other Seers, captive armies, and Profane Urims for that.
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Mar 15, 2014 02:40
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Mages are valuable and there are generally fewer Seers than there are Pentacle mages and, what's worse, there are actually ten different Ministries compared to five Pentacle Orders, which means that your actual odds of finding an Awakened Praetorian who devotes their workday to video game design are slim to none. However, the Praetorian Ministry is an organization which is not about becoming the strongest, coolest possible fighter, but rather an organization about making sure everyone keeps pointlessly fighting in non-cool ways that leave them ultimately weaker. They want abstract social capital transformed into battlecruisers and missile launchers rather than schools and hospitals. So if you want to look at an ostensibly martial Order and find that its ranks actually contain propagandists, logisticians, politicians, attorneys, etc, you want to look at the Praetorian Ministry. Of course, the cozier they are with Hegemonic, the less they'll have to bother, but there's a reason that you generally don't refer to all the Ministries together as a single geometric shape. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 02:56
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Yeah the Arrow is indisputably all about becoming a Tough Fighter, and not in some elementary metaphorical way either. The Arrow does not, emphatically, try to alter Sleeper culture in general. That's a job for Cryptopolies and Labyrinths. That's not to say the Arrow doesn't act as an "advisor" to Sleeper forces they've somehow compromised, but that's a very different job from a Ladder propagandist identifying and exploiting ideological gaps in Fallen civilization. The Arrow material is very clear about their "every Marine a rifleman" kind of attitude. Mission creep is a possibility, but it will always be with an eye towards militarizing things, in a practical way. If it doesn't help the Pentacle win battles against Seers, or anyone else, the Arrow isn't going to be very interested in it until it's properly weaponized. An Arrow with a day job as a defense attorney makes perfect sense, but not because "the real fight is in the courtroom", it's because there's plenty of dangerous and desperate people (and their weapons, money, drugs, etc) caught up in the criminal justice system who might make good Tough Fighters (and the weapons, money, drugs, material etc doesn't hurt either!). Any concern for the Fallen justice of the matter is likely a distant second priority, because There's A War On. A real one, where victory is possible and then maybe Existence wouldn't be Struggle anymore.
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Mar 15, 2014 06:49
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So, I brought up the issues to the before-mentioned GM. His response was something along the lines of "You have to compromise more than other members of the group" gently caress that poo poo. Then a shpiel about how I don't fit in the group.  I just want to play some WoD goddamnit. No chantry I can deal with. Actually years of research times on rituals, sure. But goddamnit if he didnt spay and neuter my 5dot mentor merit. I wasn't even allowed to know anything about tremere history. DJ Dizzy fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 15:22
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Abort! Abort!
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Mar 16, 2014 15:33
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Yep, guy is a dick. That's pretty much the worst way to introduce a new player to the group. Neutering a guys character rather than working him into the narrative is the mark of a terrible gm.
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Mar 16, 2014 17:43
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It's also pretty much a guarantee that requiring months/years of research per ritual would have been his way of saying "no, no new rituals ever" because that is the only way I have ever seen them used. It's always "this ritual takes six months to learn because Reasons. Every session is going to be one night at the most, so after 180 sessions you can buy it. Yes, I realize that's almost four years of regular weekly sessions." Any game that enforces training times is a game you should stay far away from.
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Mar 16, 2014 17:51
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Yeah, I did point that out to him several times, but he never directly admitted it. Kept avoiding the issue.
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Mar 16, 2014 18:33
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DJ Dizzy posted:Yeah, I did point that out to him several times, but he never directly admitted it. Kept avoiding the issue. Why not ask him if he'd prefer you to play a vampire of a clan that he enjoys and appreciates as part of his game? I mean if he's simply not willing to compromise on letting blood-magic and their clan be a part of the player's game, but you still want to play a oWoD vampire...
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Mar 16, 2014 18:40
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I dont really play primarily for his enjoyment, but rather for mine. If he had said from the getgo that playing a tremere wouldnt be the greatest of ideas, sure, I could have played another clan.
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Mar 16, 2014 18:41
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Yeah that's really something that's gotta be stated before anyone makes a character. If you don't like blood magic, just say you don't like blood magic and the tremere just aren't in this city. For some reason this is really hard for people to do regardless of game and it always ends poorly because it is a guarantee someone will want to play a tremere if you hate blood magic, a paladin in D&D if you hate alignment requirements, a scorpion in L5R if you hate scheming PCs, etc.
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Mar 16, 2014 19:45
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For example, normally I'll state which Clans aren't allowed (Normally Asamite, Giovani, and followers of Set. Ravnos are allowed but only with a really good reason.) when prepping for a game and running players through character creation. For one thing so they know what they've got to work with narrative wise. But for another so I've not got a party of Settites neutering most bad guys by having a staring contest with them. I'm willing to let a lot of stuff fly, abandoning plots at a moments notice and following players into all kinds of madness. I once had a Nozforatu player break the masquerade by murdering a ton of people in the middle of the street screaming that he was Batman for no other reason that there was guy in a my little pony hoodie. The guy was knocked flying into a open sewer and was kidnapped by alligators and a tzimisi to become some kinda mutant unicorn thing dubbed 'killer clop'. It had started out as some kinda espionage mission but ended up as a big cartoony brawl in the middle of the street. Attaching fire works to police officers and throwing them at werewolves armed with rocket launchers while quipping one liners. It sounds silly but that's just how we roll.
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Mar 16, 2014 22:05
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DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:Yeah the Arrow is indisputably all about becoming a Tough Fighter, and not in some elementary metaphorical way either. 1) Existence is always a struggle, because this is explicitly a metaphysical position, not just a description of the Fallen state. In Atlantis, existence was still a struggle. In whatever comes after, existence is still a struggle. This is ripped from microcosmic/macrocosmic practice in Taoism, but tuned to remove the complimentary nature of metaphysical forces in Taoism. 2) The order book really does tackle the "every Marine a rifleman" thing with notes that the Arrow would *like* this to be true, but not even wizards are routinely omnicompetent warrior-scholars. The only hard requirements are that you must keep your promises and be okay with violent actions. Don't keep promises or are a general poo poo? They kick you out. Can't shoot people? They kick you out. But there's a large gap between this and being an asskicker. 3) Game theory is already an innately militarized field. When it comes to being a lawyer, a metaphysical justification would work fine, but that person would be seen as less competent than a lawyer who can can also kick rear end. Similarly, an idiot who can *only* kick rear end will also stay on the ground floor. The order considers them both to be specialized tools/weapons to point at particular problems.
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Mar 16, 2014 22:21
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ErichZahn posted:I've typed multiple posts explaining why Ferrinus is wrong, but none which explain how. Well, when I referred to "game theory" in the order book I was referring to what is also called decision theory, which I have a personal interest in. It's not really the same as academic game design, an emerging field about the intersection of technical game design, psychology and a bunch of other stuff. It's John Nash, RAND Corporation paranoiac-logic. (Nash has done some interesting recent work on delegated agents that reflect his understanding of his own psychological condition compared to his Cold War work.) Out of all the orders, I probably designed the Arrow with the softest divisions between their mission and metaphysical stuff, precisely so that there could be a wider field for character concepts. You can develop characters that emphasize one aspect or the other, though being a conflict metaphysician who can't fight has social consequences.
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Mar 16, 2014 22:31
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The best thing about game theory is when the early game theorists had their secretaries run through their tests and got really upset and confused when the secretaries behaved like human beings and not value-maximizing machines.
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Mar 17, 2014 07:42
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So game theory = libertarianism?
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Mar 17, 2014 09:45
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Game Theory actually changed to try and account for human factor as opposed to screaming about it with a fedora on.
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Mar 17, 2014 14:13
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Well, that answers that.http://theonyxpath.com/mage-the-ascension-20th-anniversary-edition-faq-part-2/ posted:Last question: So what’s up with the “Satyros” thing, anyway?
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Mar 17, 2014 20:18
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Have we found out yet if he kept out paradigm information for fear of players doing real magic again?
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Mar 17, 2014 20:29
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Well, the success of the Kickstarter campaign was a work of real magick, so maybe he's softened his stance a bit.
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Mar 18, 2014 00:01
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Kellsterik posted:Well, the success of the Kickstarter campaign was a work of real magick, so maybe he's softened his stance a bit. Let's not go overboard- it's not like he's Grant Morrison or something.
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Mar 18, 2014 07:24
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I was jokingly referring to this: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/deluxe-mage-the-ascension-20th-anniversary-edition/posts/765549
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Mar 18, 2014 07:40
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 Goddamn.
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Mar 19, 2014 02:53
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Is that like the art for the Sons of Ether or...?
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Mar 19, 2014 02:56
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Kavak posted:Is that like the art for the Sons of Ether or...? They're the Society of Ether or something now, but I think that's art for them, yeah. I was hoping it wouldn't go full retard steampunk, but here we are.
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Mar 19, 2014 02:59
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Swagger Dagger posted:I was hoping it wouldn't go full retard steampunk, but here we are. Dude, it's the SoE. There's no way they couldn't not do that. I cannot wait to see how bad the Adepts are gonna be. So excited. Error 404 fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Mar 19, 2014 |
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Mar 19, 2014 03:06
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ErichZahn posted:
Post hot flywheels & the steampunkest pics u got
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Mar 19, 2014 03:45
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ErichZahn posted:
The best part is that, thanks to the stretch goals, you can get this on a shirt. More seriously, I thought the
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Mar 19, 2014 04:13
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I always have the Sons of Ether be like Ghostbusters / Back to the Future style scientists, not this dumb poo poo Whatev, I'm looking forward to the 100,000+ word Nephandi book 
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Mar 19, 2014 05:00
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ErichZahn posted:
Picture single-handedly makes the Technocratic Union kicking them out of the science club an act of sound logic and good taste.
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Mar 19, 2014 05:07
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Zikan posted:Picture single-handedly makes the Technocratic Union kicking them out of the science club an act of sound logic and good taste. Which it always was.
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Mar 19, 2014 05:15
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Grim posted:I always have the Sons of Ether be like Ghostbusters / Back to the Future style scientists, not this dumb poo poo I always thought those were the Void Engineers?
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Mar 19, 2014 06:03
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Steampunk/clockworking is absolutely a pseudoscience. I just hope it's not crowding out the rest of them.
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Mar 19, 2014 06:14
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pospysyl posted:The best part is that, thanks to the stretch goals, you can get this on a shirt.
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Mar 19, 2014 06:18
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Yawgmoth posted:Of all the bad decisions I could make, this is the one I want to make the most right now. This, but Virtual Adepts.
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Mar 19, 2014 06:43
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Like the other Traditions, SoE groups are based primarily on aesthetics. Shame they picked the lameo steampunk group instead of The Manhattans, but that's the price you pay when you want an Etherite standing still instead of beating Hit-Marks to death with white-phosphorous robo-fists or ripping their lab-coats open to reveal that their chest is an atom bomb. Go look up the poo poo Oppenheimer and company feared would happen when they set the Trinity device off. Radioactive lightning is the coolest idea ever. 
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Mar 19, 2014 08:03
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