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Chuck Boone posted:I would also like an answer to this
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Mar 12, 2014 05:59
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I think you've hit the nail right in the head though. The standard go-to line some people resort to is "anything that does not conform to my already established, pro-government (or leftist) opinion is right wing propaganda". I'm glad to see not many people here have resorted to that, though.
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menino posted:Low effort shitposting coming from El Jefe tambien. It's more entertaining when you believe he actually is Castro and is just trolling the thread.
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Mar 12, 2014 14:54
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Today is March 12, which is both Flag Day in Venezuela as well as the one month mark since the protests really took off back on February 12. Students are marching today in Caracas to demand the resignation of the Fiscal General (Attorney General) Luisa Ortega Diaz, and the Defensora del Pueblo (People's Defender) Gabriela Ramirez. They cite the "detentions and arbitrary measures" taken by the Public Ministry as the reason for demanding Diaz's resignation, and Ramirez's comments on torture for demanding her resignation. Maduro launched a new radio show yesterday called "En Contacto con Maduro" (In Contact with Maduro), and he said a couple of things. One of them was, "As long as there are guarimbas (barricades), while the coup is still active, while the opposition continues to refuse to talk, the right-wing marches will not enter Caracas. I will not let them enter because I will not let in what we have in Chacao [demonstratos]... here, you need permission to march". He also said that "Chuckys" (again, in reference to the Child's Play movies) have "infiltrated" the opposition protests, and that they "destroy the center of Caracas and no one is responsible. While the coup is active, while there are fascist guarimbas burning part of the territories governed by the opposition, these marches will not enter Caracas. They can call me whatever they want!" The reference to Chacao in Maduro's talk last night is timely, since last night there were heavy disturbances there. The confrontation between protesters and National Guard lasted about four hours, and included tear gas. The government also cut electricity to the area. At some point during the night, someone (either National Guard or pro-government supporter) played a recording of Chavez's voice over a loudspeaker as a sort of rallying cry. The recording was of Chavez saying, "Patria, patria, patria querida!" ("Homeland, homeland, beloved homeland!") Yesterday, opposition mayors from across the country agreed to form an association to help them deal with the national crisis. They're also formally backing up the demands made by the opposition as conditions for any dialogue with the government. The mayor of Cordoba, Tachira said, "What happens to one of us happens to all of us. We will not allow that from the government, which wants to divide us. We are not divided, we are united on this cause that has all of us anxious." So far this morning, I'm seeing pictures of barricades throughout Caracas. The march is just about underway, so we'll see if the protesters make it to the Public Ministry and the Defensoria del Pueblo to ask for the resignation of Diaz and Ramirez. I'll be at work all day today so I won't be able to post til tonight. Here is a cartoon I just found that encapsulates some of the frustration the demonstrators are feeling in regards to the government response to the protests:  punk rebel ecks posted:I imagine that this happens a lot in PSUV government meetings as the more radical side butts heads and intimidates the more sensible side. "Negotiate with retailers on price controls! Whatever Mr. MILTON FRIEDMAN! You probably want this country to become a banana republic!" "Slow down naturalization to focus on making the existing ones more efficent!? Who are you Pinochet!?!?" Certainly. When I hear Maduro and Cabello calling the demonstrators Nazis and fascists, part of me wants to believe that they don't really believe what they're saying. But another part of me knows that, actually, they do. They really do. And that's part of the reason why Vielma Mora's statements to the press back in February were such a shock. Here you have a PSUV governor giving such a radical opinion during a time of crisis, first by saying that sending the army in to deal with the protesters was "excessive" (in agreement with the opposition), and second that keeping Simonovis and Lopez in jail wasn't right (also in agreement with the opposition). Meanwhile, you've got other PSUV governors like El Aissami in Aragua saying that they've arrested a Middle Eastern terrorist mercenary on the payroll of the opposition, and Ameliach in Carabobo calling on the colectivos armados in the state to prepare for "fulminating counter attack" against the demonstrators.
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Mar 12, 2014 15:11
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Yes you have many members of the government including the president going on TV to openly discuss plans to massacre demonstrators, but all good firstworld leftists posting from the safety of their dorm rooms still have to support this because a new government might potentially be worse, you see.
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Mar 12, 2014 19:33
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Today was a really eventful day. At least three killed, and I'm hearing rumours of a fourth, but that might not have been related to the protests. The student march got underway as scheduled. The goal of the march was to reach the Defensoria del Pueblo, which is in the part of Caracas that Maduro said he would not allow protesters to enter. Here's a bunch of pictures from the demonstration as it was about to set out. In what the opposition are calling an attempt to disrupt people making their way to the demonstration, nine subway stations were closed in Caracas today. The nine stations closed are located along the route the demonstrators said they were going to take. The protest was supposed to set out from Bello Campo and move west in a fairly straight line until they reached the Defensoria del Pueblo. However, the National Guard was blocking streets on the path of the demonstrators, and warned the protesters several times that they would not be allowed to enter the area of Caracas where the Defensoria del Pueblo is located. At some point, the demonstration turned south from the planned route, and the students attempted to enter the campus of the Universidad Central de Venezuela. Starting at around 2:30 PM, National Guard stationed at the entrances to the university started using tear gas to disperse the students. I'm not entirely sure if they were attempting to stop the students from getting in or out of the campus, but either way, the National Guard was present in force. Here are some pictures, all from the Universidad Central de Venezuela today:      This picture shows two men allegedly on their way to the university, and was taken around 2:55 PM. Note that: 1) One of them appears to be wielding a pistol, 2) Neither man is uniformed, and 3) the motorcyle they are riding is marked "GNB" (Guardia Nacional Bolivariana):  Voluntad Popular (a huge opposition party) said that one of its representatives in Caracas was hit in the face with a tear gas canister today. They also called for the peaceful protests to continue. Two protesters (Jesus Enrique Acosta, 23, and Guillermo Sanchez, 42), and National Guard captain (Ernesto Bravo Bracho) were killed today in protests in Valencia. Jesus Enrique was an engineering student and was killed by a bullet to the head in La Isabelica. Guillermo Sanchez was taking part in a demonstration in El Mañongo when he was shot and killed. Captain Ernesto Bravo Bracho was also killed by gunfire, possibly at the same demonstration in El Mañongo. Maduro called for a special meeting of the Security Cabinet today. Maduro said: quote:I am going to take drastic measures against all of these areas where they are attacking and killing Venezuelan people, all done within constitutional limits, but this cannot be [or, "this cannot continue"]. We are going to look for the murderers, we have already captured most of the murderers who killed sergeants, who murdered bikers with [barbed wire strung across roads]." Maduro also said that Captain Bravo, who was killed in Valencia, was shot by "fascist snipers". Defensora del Pueblo Gabriela "It's Only Torture if You're Doing It To Get a Confession" Ramirez did the right thing today and filed a complaint at the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in Geneva... to denounce "a hate campaign launched against the Defensoria del Pueblo by a false newspaper article published by El Nacional." Ramirez claimed that the newspaper published an article on her statements last week that made her seem like she was justifying the use of torture, when in fact she was just defining it the wrong way. She also said that the hate campaign "has generated violence through social media, particularly, against my person and my family." EDIT: I found a couple of videos from the disturbances in El Mañongo, Valencia today: This one shows a National Guard truck chasing protesters and getting two molotov cocktails thrown at it. This one appears to have been taken by security forces, and shows a National Guard truck under attack by fireworks and what looks like molotov cocktails. Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Mar 13, 2014 |
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Mar 13, 2014 02:14
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Chuck Boone posted:Two protesters (Jesus Enrique Acosta, 23, and Guillermo Sanchez, 42), and National Guard captain (Ernesto Bravo Bracho) were killed today in protests in Valencia. Jesus Enrique was an engineering student and was killed by a bullet to the head in La Isabelica. Guillermo Sanchez was taking part in a demonstration in El Mañongo when he was shot and killed. Captain Ernesto Bravo Bracho was also killed by gunfire, possibly at the same demonstration in El Mañongo. I have to correct a mistranslation: Guillermo Sanchez wasn't part of the protests in Mañongo, he was killed in his way home in La Isabelica in the same attack that took Acosta's life. EDIT: On top of it, Governor Ameliach was also trying to pin the blame of said attack on the Mayor of San Diego Vicenzo "Enzo" Scarano and (once again) Pablo Aure Secretary of Universidad de Carabobo and Dean of the Juridic and Political Sciences Faculty. AstraSage fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Mar 13, 2014 |
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Mar 13, 2014 04:10
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I had a fun morning trying to get in touch with my aunt and grandmother in El Trigal after finding out that one of Maduro's "drastic measures" he planned to take against the protesters last night include the "allanamiento" (breaking an entering) of homes in El Trigal, Valencia, as a way to crack down on demonstrators. Thankfully, their home wasn't broken into, but they're not sure if that's because it hasn't happened yet, or because it just wasn't included on the list. So far this morning I'm seeing mostly reaction to the events in Valencia and the UCV in Caracas, accompanied by the usual rhetoric. The opposition blames Maduro and the PSUV for calling out colectivos armados, and the Maduro/PSUV are blaming fascist snipers/agitators for the deaths. AstraSage posted:I have to correct a mistranslation: Guillermo Sanchez wasn't part of the protests in Mañongo, he was killed in his way home in La Isabelica in the same attack that took Acosta's life. Thanks for that, AstraSage. I read "... recibió un disparo cuando pintaba el frente de su casa y en el Distribuidor Mañomgo..." as "... recibió un disparo cuando pintaba el frente de su casa en el Distribuidor Mañomgo" (no "y")  Yeah, Ameliach is something else. As far as PSUV governors go, he's certainly up there in terms of aggressiveness in tone, demeanour and action. He acts and talks like if Diosdado Cabello was governor somewhere.
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Mar 13, 2014 15:43
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Chuck Boone posted:I had a fun morning trying to get in touch with my aunt and grandmother in El Trigal after finding out that one of Maduro's "drastic measures" he planned to take against the protesters last night include the "allanamiento" (breaking an entering) of homes in El Trigal, Valencia, as a way to crack down on demonstrators.. What...wait WHAT?! WHAT THE gently caress!?!? Did I interpret that correctly?
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Mar 13, 2014 23:39
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As somebody who is confused about what 'the truth' is, I'd like to ask the Venezuelans in this thread what they think of this article:quote:According to the list compiled by this author 30 deaths have occurred in connection with the political violence so far. The most lethal cause has been the militant opposition’s street barricades (see Annex 2). The list explains that: So this claims the majority of the violence is being inflicted by the opposition and that the state violence is the exception and is being punished. This seems a bit far out but VA's article on the made up pictures surrounding the initial protests and some of their other reporting has led me to believe they are a decent source of information. Am I wrong to think this?
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Mar 14, 2014 00:06
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Unlearning posted:As somebody who is confused about what 'the truth' is, I'd like to ask the Venezuelans in this thread what they think of this article: I've heard some truly terrible stuff from what I thought were normal balanced people, there is a lot of hate and yes people putting up and protecting the barricades are sometimes extremely violent and willing to defend their barricades no matter what, that's why when I'm driving around and I see a barricade I just turn around rather than get out of my car to try to clear the road, because people are loving insane right now here. You can feel the tension in the air, it's really scary stuff. This is for the long run too, I can't see people letting up the protests anytime soon.
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Mar 14, 2014 01:06
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venezuelanalysis is the longest-running, most hardline pro-regime source there is; it's been carrying water for Chavez since at least the 2002 events. If you look at the biographies of the people who admit to contributing to it, they're all either members of Chomskyite circles or hard-Marxist parties. So, no, I would not assume they bring any particular objectivity to the table. Obviously, all sources have some value and should be used with a critical eye and nothing should be totally discounted or blindly trusted, but VA is particularly irksome because they have made it very clear that the chance of them ever putting an anti-Maduro spin on anything is zero.
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Mar 14, 2014 01:10
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The families of Jesus Acosta and Guillermo Sanchez (killed in Valencia yesterday) have gone on the record as saying that Governor Ameliach lied when he asserted through Twitter last night that the two men had been killed by sniper fire. The family members who spoke said that those responsible for the deaths were members of colectivos armados from the area. Jesus's mother, Jessica Matute, said:quote:The motorizados [colectivo] were shooting [weapons] down the avenue like crazy, when suddenly they started to go down street and side streets shooting in the direction of homes without caring that there were children and families in those homes, when one of those bullets reached my son and killed him. Guillermo Sanchez - who was a father of three - was painting his parent's house when he went across the street to his own home to find a brush. While crossing the street, a colectivo drove by. His neighbours witnessed the shooting, and said, "he surrendered to them and he even raised his shirt to show them that he was not armed, but nothing worked." Guillermo's wife, Gina Rodriguez, said: quote:My husband was killed by the colectivos armados, not by a sniper. That is a lie. Maduro is using the disturbances to put the heat on some opposition mayors. Today, the mayor of Baruta was accused by the Supreme Court of helping to close streets (with barricades), failing to collect garbage as scheduled, failing to prevent damage to his municipality and failing to remove the barricades. The mayors of Chacao, Sucre, El Hatillo (Ramon Muchacho, Carlos Ocariz and David Smolansky, respectively) and Henrique Capriles (governor of Miranda) also have pending action against them, although it's not clear what the accusations are at this time. Also today, CONATEL (Comision Nacional de Telecomunicaciones - National Telecommunication Commission) apparently ordered all Venezuelan ISPs to "comply with the order to block web pages with content contrary to the interests of the government". The source for this comes from the newspaper El Pais, which claims that it has a document from the head of the Telecommunications division at CONATEL, Harris Viafra, in which he gave the ISPs the news yesterday in a meeting. According to the article, this stems from the government's desire to block internet access to websites that give the non-official U.S. dollar exchange value. This is a link to the original article in El Pais. punk rebel ecks posted:What...wait WHAT?! WHAT THE gently caress!?!? Did I interpret that correctly? I think so! Six people were arrested in El Trigal today as a result of the order. Maduro said: quote:[The National Guard] took all of El Trigal in Valencia and we have gone ahead to allanar [break and enter into] all of the places where there were bandits hiding, and six of them have been arrested. Unlearning posted:As somebody who is confused about what 'the truth' is, I'd like to ask the Venezuelans in this thread what they think of this article: There are a couple of things I want to say about the guarimbas. I will preface what I'm about to say with two points. First, the people I'm talking to in Venezuela swear up and down that the only people who've died because of barricades were the ones who were victims of the barbed wire trap. They say that everyone else who has been cited as being killed by gunfire while trying to clean up a street/clear a barricade are lies from the government. Their reluctance to buy the government side of the story isn't unwarranted, as the first article in this post proves. Having said that, I don't have a problem at all with believing that some people trying to clear barricades have been killed by whoever's manning the barricades at the time. Like El Hefe just said, things are extremely chaotic right now, and whenever you've got a bunch of angry, nervous people on the street with guns, you can't be surprised when things like this happen. Second, remember that in Venezuela "the opposition" is "everyone who is not the PSUV". The political parties that make up the opposition haven't (as far as I know) endorsed the barricades, or called people to set them up. Their thing is the peaceful march. Whenever you've seen pictures of thousands of people on the street, that was the opposition parties setting that up. They like the optics of a mass of people on the street at one demonstration, so that's what they're trying to stick to. In fact, Maria Corina Machado has called for another mass demonstration for this Sunday. However, I don't think (as far as I know) that any of the parties have gone out of their way to condemn the barricades, or straight up tell people to not put them up. So what you've got is an extremely disjointed opposition headed by at least four very different people (Ledezma, Capriles, Lopez, Machado), and that's just the big four. Now, imagine you and your neighbours in your building get together one evening, talk about how you heard there are colectivos armados nearby, and suddenly it doesn't matter what anyone is saying or not saying - you're putting a barricade up on your street. In other words: Not everyone in the opposition thinks the barricades are a good idea, but those who do are putting them up. We know that the barricades are potentially dangerous places - some of them are lit on fire, some of them involve removing manhole covers from the street, some of them have barbed wire strung out across them, and some of them are manned by armed, angry people. That is the reality. Now, I also think that Maduro done the absolute wrong thing and helped to escalate the violence. If I was Maduro, I would have said something like this about a month ago: "People of Venezuela, if you see a violent demonstration or a barricade in your neighbourhood, do these two things in this order: 1) Immediately leave the area and seek shelter in a safe place, preferably inside your own home, and 2) call this hotline I've just set up, which will notify your local police/National Guard unit, and they will deal with the violence in your area." Instead, Maduro went ahead and said this on March 5: quote:Today, small groups tried to burn and block major roadways. I call upon everyone, the Bolivar Chavez Battle Units, the Communal Councils, the social movements, communes, youth, workers, campesinos, women, I call on everyone to carry out, out there in your own communities, the orders of our commander Hugo Chavez: fire that starts, fire that we put out. That's the President of Venezuela calling out his civilian supporters to take to the streets and confront demonstrators, some of whom everyone knows are violent/armed/manning barricades. This is not only an escalation, but it is the most irresponsible kind of escalation, since he's encouraging people to go out and fight each other on the streets. When you throw in the colectivos, you're asking for trouble. As for the word "colectivo" being a pejorative term, I disagree with that. Is there a non-pejorative term for "armed, non-uniformed, organized pro-government bikers"? I guess "government militia" is close, but the Venezuelan colloquialism for that is "colectivo". And that's what they are: armed, non-uniformed, organized, pro-government (men, usually), typically on bikes. If you look through my posts in this thread, I've posted videos and pictures of them in action. Here's another shot of one from yesterday (the driver):  Anecdotally, I am against the barricades because I think that unless your goal is to piss everyone off and make life harder for everyone, then a barricade isn't really helping things. My aunt works in a hospital and she hasn't been able to get to work on two separate days because the roads were blocked. My other aunt hasn't been able to go to work all week because where she lives (El Trigal, Valencia), every street is blocked either by a barricade or by the National Guard. My cousin's university student group is formally against them. This is all anecdotal, but what I'm trying to say is that the barricades are not an agreed upon tactic. In short: You've got a disjointed opposition made up of everyone who is against the PSUV fighting against an irresponsible government that helped to escalate the violence, and a non-trivial amount of armed, non-unformed government supporters actively involved in violence against protesters. The situation is extremely complicated, and trying to figure out who's right or wrong based on how many people each side has killed will ask more questions than it will answer. The issue of the made up pictures has been covered already. I argued that "a picture someone retweeted or liked on Facebook" doesn't really come anywhere close to the kind of organized media propaganda war the government would have you believe it is currently facing. My 78 year old aunt is guilty of retweeting those fake images, and I suspect most of these cases are people having 0 critical thinking skills. EDIT: Found two quick videos. One of a colectivo armado, one of the National Guard: - This one claims to be from La Isabelica in Valencia. The video shows a colectivo armado riding into an intersection. One of the riders apparently gets off his bike and discharges his firearm at the end of the clip (he's wearing a motorcycle helmet): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwhWDkvGf3o - This video shows a National Guard soldier setting fire to a barricade for some reason. The man recording is saying, "That's the National Guard burning [things]! This is so that everyone can know that it's the National Guard burning things!" The video is allegedly from nearby a mall. I really don't know why the National Guard dude sets fire to this barricade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jElg0nXgsb0 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 03:41 on Mar 14, 2014 |
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Mar 14, 2014 03:04
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There doesn't appear to be a whole of in terms of confrontations today in Venezuela so far, but there is a lot of movement in terms of other news. Minister of Foreign Affairs Elias Jaua said this today on Secretary of State John Kerry: quote:Mr. Kerry, we denounce you before the world, you are encouraging the violence in Venezuela (...) we denounce you as a murderer of the Venezuelan people Jaua also said that the only thing that has stopped a civil war from taking place so far is the "political conscience and the dedication to peace of the Venezuelan people". At a news conference today (which is still taking place!), Maduro said that "the barricades were carried out to generate hate and overthrow the democratic revolution in the country. What they seek [by putting up] those barricades is foreign intervention, and he continued, "Every message that the U.S. government sends serves as a call to violence that [we] put out each day". Here are a couple of other interesting things he's said during the conference:
At around 6:00 AM this morning, neighbours from the Bolivar Norte Avenue in Valencia say that they saw around 50 state security personnel enter an apartment building and drag at least 8 occupants out. This appears to be a continuation of the order that Maduro gave two days ago now to start breaking and entering into homes in several areas of Valencia in pursuit of "bandits". The inflation rate for February was 2.4%, which puts the total inflation rate for the first two months of the year at 5.8%. I saw two pictures and a video today that show the scarcity situation. Here they are: This shows a crowd of people lined up at a supermarket in Charallave, Miranda. From last night:  This one, also from last night, shows another line up, this time in Maracay:  This is a video, published on March 11. It shows a fight between two people lined up to shop at a Central Madeirense, a supermarket. The man recording says, "For harina pan [flour], for harina pan, look, look... they're fighting for harina pan!... That's what happens with these line ups" The fight ends when, for some reason, people begin swarming into the store: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brcU3OAnvkk
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Mar 14, 2014 19:39
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Chuck Boone posted:The inflation rate for February was 2.4%, which puts the total inflation rate for the first two months of the year at 5.8%. Do you mean 58%?
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Mar 14, 2014 20:06
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Just caught a bit of the conference. He said that the extreme left and the extreme right come together. Those of the "extreme left" saying he's depreciated Socialism. He says they serve an enemy purpose and that it "smells weird" (aka smells fishy, suspicious). He said "You know who I'm talking about".
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Mar 14, 2014 20:07
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Chuck Boone posted:[*] "The protests in Venezuela tried to be an Arab Spring." An interesting thing to use as a pointed accusation -- remember, Chavez openly supported Mubarak, Gaddafi, and Assad and communicated the line that all the protests in the Arab world were US-engineered imperialist plots. I haven't heard much out of Maduro now that we're in a post-Arab Spring era and the battle lines in the Mideast have somewhat redrawn (and it's been made clear that neither the old secular fascists nor the new Islamic regimes have any great love for the West). Is this an indication that the Venezuelan government as a whole just can't get past the glory days of Chavez yelling about the smell of brimstone at the U.N. in 2006? The world stage has changed markedly since then and since the Arab Spring events of three years ago, but in foreign policy as in all things, Venezuela remains stuck idolizing a dead man and can't adjust to new realities.
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Mar 14, 2014 20:24
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Do you mean 58%? No, (I think) I mean that the inflation rate for February was 2.4%, and that so far this year (when you add up January's inflation), the rate for the first two months of the year sits at 5.8%. I'll quote the article because I'm not too comfortable with economics terms: quote:Inflation for the month of February was at 2.4% according to the Banco Central de Venezuela. With this result, the accumulated inflation for 2014 sits at 5.8%, and the annualized inflation is located at 57.3%. The article also says that, "A notable result is the deceleration of the price of food and non-alcoholic beverages, which went from 7% in January to 4.3% in February."
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Mar 14, 2014 20:27
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Thanks for all the updates, Chuck Boone. An acquaintance of mine -- a pretty radical/hippie Mexican backpacker dude -- has been hitch hiking across Venezuela and is now staying somewhere in Barquisimeto. He used to be pretty staunchly Bolivarian in outlook but now he's sympathetic to the protestors, who he says are willing "to die" for the cause. So, basically, I'm amazed that his views have changed so sharply so quickly, and what's the situation like in Barquisimeto?
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Mar 15, 2014 11:06
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There were demonstrations and arrests in Altamira last night again. This website has a lot of really high quality pictures showing the confrontation between the National Guard and demonstrators there. My cousin's friend took this video on Friday in Altamira. She's counting the number of motorcycles that are driving by with arrested demonstrators. Towards the end of the video, the National Guard approaches her and asks her to get away (he's saying, "Quitate! Quitate!", which means, "Move!" or "Get out of here!"). She keeps replying, "Why? Why?", and then one of the guards tries to grab her or her camera. Volume warning!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S5OUSSogNo El Nacional is reporting that eight universities were the sites of confrontations between the National Guard and demonstrators over the last four days. The article says that Anzoategui state police, along with a colectivo armado, attacked the Universidad Santa Maria in Barcelona, which resulted in one professor injured with buckshot, 14 damaged vehicles, property damage, and six robberies. Also, in the Universidad Central de Venezuela, 16 armed men entered the Faculty of Sciences building and "beat up students", according to the head of the university, Cecilia Garcia Arocha. She also said, "We demand that the government disarm the armed groups, we don't want more attacks against our university". The university is currently running on a "flexible" schedule at least until Wednesday. Graduate studies night programs are suspended because the university can't guarantee the safety of the students. The article quotes Francisco Virtuoso, the head of the Universidad Catolica Andres Bello in Caracas, as saying that since the students are the spearhead of the protests, they're being targeted specifically by the government. Yesterday, Henrique Capriles told Maduro, "Pick a time and a date, in cadena through television and radio" for the two to have a head-to-head debate. One of the criticisms Maduro has levelled against the opposition is that they're not interested in talking at all, so Capriles has gone ahead and put the ball in Maduro's court. Capriles also got a little personal and said, "The country is tired of all the stupid things you [Maduro] say." MothraAttack posted:Thanks for all the updates, Chuck Boone. My pleasure! Good on your friend for being willing to change his mind in the face of evidence contrary to his convictions. The world needs more of this. This is the "step one foot outside the airport" effect that El Hefe mentioned in one of his posts here. On paper (and from far away), the issue can be pretty clear. Seeing the situation as it is on the ground and having to live through it, at best, should muddy the waters for anyone willing to have their beliefs questioned. Barquisimeto is the fourth largest city in Venezuela (after Caracas, Maracaibo, and Valencia), and like those big cities, it's had its fair share of daily protests. Barquisimeto had one reported death from demonstrator/government confrontations, and that was on February 20. The man's name was Arturo Alexis Martinez. This is a video from Barquisimeto, taken on February 12, and it shows a confrontation between National Guard troops and protesters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXqLCBTgptM And here's another one, this one from the 20th of February. It shows a crowd of pro-government demonstrators behind two (APCs? But the cameraman calls then "tanks") advancing up a street. This video was taken at the same location and on the same day on which Arturo Alexis Martines was killed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co7J4x6SDS8 Based on those two videos alone, tell your acquaintance to stay safe! EDIT: Here's a page with some pictures from a demonstration in Barquisimeto last night Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 15:02
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This thread on Airliners.net seems pertinent: http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6024526/ Basically, Venezuela owes foreign airlines a shitton of money, and has only offered to pay them back in fuel. They also think that they don't need no stinking foreign airline service, they can totally do that on their own, thank you very much (they can in no way actually do that-all their large long-haul aircraft (there are all of 3) are leased.) Note that the opinions on that thread are not necessarily my own, as Airliners posters do have an annoying tendency to be "pro-business" as it were. I still think the information therein is pertinent to this thread. Plastic_Gargoyle fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 17:34
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Plastic_Gargoyle posted:This thread on Airliners.net seems pertinent: Of course they can't do that, every airline here is falling apart, the only planes worth a poo poo here are PDVSA's own because they are the only ones with the dollars to properly maintain the planes.
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Mar 15, 2014 17:38
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And here are some pictures of demonstrations happening around Venezuela today. From Ciudad Ojeda, Zulia:  Valencia:  Porlamar, Margarita:  Yesterday, Maria Corina Machado was in Bolivar state to attend some opposition demonstrations there along with two other National Assembly deputies. She went to the airport in Puerto Ordaz to leave, when she was met by a large, hostile crowd of pro-government supporters. The government supporters were blocking her and her party's entry into the airport. A video of the event just popped up, and I've translated it below. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjflQVCG6PI The scene was really chaotic, but I've broken it down below - the parts I could make out, anyway. Maria Corina Machado is the woman at the bottom right of the screen at the beginning. She is wearing a white shirt. Here is the transcript:
The video is six minutes long, but if you don't have the patience, skip to 4:26 and watch from there. Complete chaos. Maria Corina has called for, and will be present at, a demonstration tomorrow in Caracas starting at 10:00 AM from Plaza el Indio in Chacao. Plastic_Gargoyle posted:This thread on Airliners.net seems pertinent: Yeah, the situation involving the airlines is really messy. The exchange rate platform (first CADIVI, now SICAD) are a nightmare to get through and I can't imagine any business wanting to put up with something like it for very long. Hence the cut backs in service to Caracas.
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Mar 15, 2014 18:07
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Well, that ultimatum was a stupid move by Maduro. Thanks for the updates Chucky Boone, keep them coming.
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Mar 16, 2014 00:21
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It seems like there are some pretty big problems with the Venezuelan economy and with crime but what are the realistic end goals of the protesters? Given that they've consistently lost elections that international observers have certified as fair and free doesn't this amount to an attempt to use force and disruption to annul the outcome of repeated elections? Having armed people manning barricades seems like a very extreme step to be taking in a context where the government has been legitimately elected. I guess if you truly believe that the Venezuelan government is evil then its legitimate to oppose them using whatever means, regardless of whether they were able to win a majority of the votes. I understand that the 'legitimacy' of a Democratic government relies ultimately on whether society is unified enough to accept democratic decision making in the first place. Still, given that a number of figures involved in the previous coup attempt seem to also be on side for these protests it does sort of come off like these protests are using legitimate grievances as a stepping stone to achieve what is fundamentally an illegal aim, i.e. to win through force something that they haven't been able to achieve using traditional political manoeuvres.
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Mar 16, 2014 01:43
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Helsing posted:It seems like there are some pretty big problems with the Venezuelan economy and with crime but what are the realistic end goals of the protesters? Given that they've consistently lost elections that international observers have certified as fair and free doesn't this amount to an attempt to use force and disruption to annul the outcome of repeated elections? Having armed people manning barricades seems like a very extreme step to be taking in a context where the government has been legitimately elected. Is airing grievances and hoping the government will listen not a legitimate enough goal? When leftist protests happen in other countries, even though they do not make up a majority of the electorate it's at least seen as positive to have them (here anyway) as they raise real issues that a large part of the country have.
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Mar 16, 2014 02:10
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Yes, while the people who are trying to use the protests for political gain might be terrible that doesn't take away the fact that people are protesting for very basic civic rights.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:27
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Speaking of ultimatums given by Maduro, he gave a speech today at an event celebrating the armed forces and he had this to say about the demonstrators in Altamira:quote:I give the Chuckies [that's what he calls the demonstrators now, from the movie franchise Child's Play] just a few hours, the murderers who have taken over Plaza Altamira and the Francisco de Miranda Avenue, and if they don't get out of there I will go liberate those spaces with the public forces [National Guard, Army, police, etc.]. I give the Chuckies a few hours for them to go home. He also said that they had captured "60 Chuckies from Plaza Altamira", and that out of 29 deaths linked to the protests, "only 1 is under investigation for possibly being the result of a member of the National Guard". I haven't sat down to check my list yet but that's disingenuous at best, since the colectivos armados are the ones who are being blamed for a bunch of protester deaths. Plaza Altamira is in Caracas, and it's been a sort of epicentre of demonstrations for the last little while. There are confrontations there every night. That event that the government held in honour of the army drew some criticism from the opposition. It has been pointed out that the constitution defines the army as "... an essentially professional institution, without political militancy" (Chapte 3, Article 328), and that "The members of the National Armed Forces in their activities have the right to... not participate in acts of propaganda, militancy or political proselytism." (Chapter 3, Article 330). The opposition charges that the army is now an extremely political force, and that when Maduro parades them up and down Caracas and gives speeches before them threatening to send them out to arrest "Chuckies" and "fascists", the showing of those images on television amount to propaganda. Diosdado Cabello today said that Maria Corina Machado is part of a group of "fascist murderers", and that they're responsible for the 28 deaths that have occurred during the protests. Diosdado said: quote:Mrs. Maria Corina Machado, who is part of the fascist murderers, [recently] was at a march with a picture of the National Guard who was murdered in Valencia [Captain Bracho]. She doesn't feel for the National Armed Forces. She has provoked these deaths, she is part of the intellectual authors [responsible for] the deaths of these 28 Venezuelans. I googled "Maria Corina Machado foto Capitan Bracho" and "Maria Corina Machado marcha foto Capitan Bracho" and nothing came up. This is a video from a Chilean television network that was covering the protests in Altamira, I believe from last night. The video shows some of the protest, but more interestingly, the National Guard being aggressive towards the news crew. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuQ5tENEsYU The confrontation between the news crew and the National Guard begins at about 0:35. I've translated what they're saying beyond that point below, starting at 0:50 quote:National Guard: The easy way, or... don't get stupid. The anchor then asks one of the news crew members what happened, and how he's doing. The reporter in Venezuela replies that he's doing better, after being "punched and kicked by a group of six police officers, headed by one of their officers". The reporter said that he was beaten because he was recording the arrest of a student leader. When the National Guard saw him recording, "without wanting to talk to me", they began to hit him. That takes the video to about 2:20. If anyone is interested, I can translate the rest of the video. Helsing posted:It seems like there are some pretty big problems with the Venezuelan economy and with crime but what are the realistic end goals of the protesters? ... Still, given that a number of figures involved in the previous coup attempt seem to also be on side for these protests it does sort of come off like these protests are using legitimate grievances as a stepping stone to achieve what is fundamentally an illegal aim, i.e. to win through force something that they haven't been able to achieve using traditional political manoeuvres. What's important to remember here is that the last presidential election, in 2013, ended up split 50.6% in favour of Maduro, 49.1% for Capriles with a turnout of 79.68% (14,951,559 votes counted). So back then, during optimal circumstances (coming off Chavez's death, when the future of the revolution rested on the election), the PSUV just barely won. Fast forward one year, and the honeymoon with Maduro is over. You've got a crime situation that can be described as "crippling", a scarcity problem of unprecedented severity and duration in recent times, and to top it off, 56% inflation for all of 2013. Considering the fact that the next presidential elections won't be until 2019, it looks like some people have lost confidence in the government's ability to improve the situation in the next five years. As computer parts pointed out, the goal of the demonstrations are, at the very least, to draw attention to these problems with the hopes that the government will address them. Remember that there is no single unified opposition. Some people want Maduro out, some people want a referendum, some people don't want either. If Maduro came out tomorrow and said, "Look, I've heard you, you're concerns are legitimate and the problems you face are horrible, and from now on I will do X, Y, and Z to help solve them", I think you'd see a non-trivial number of demonstrators call it "Mission Accomplished". Instead, you've got Maduro calling demonstrators "Chuckies", fascists and Nazis, the vice president holding an opposition leader personally responsible for 28 deaths, and pro-government armed groups terrorizing protesters around the country. In other words, the government has made its job all the more difficult by showing that is unwilling to even acknowledge the concerns of the protesters, which has left a bunch of already angry, disheartened, frustrated people with all the more reason to get out there on the street and yell and wave flags because the alternative is to sit at home for five years and hope that the same people who they believe have ruined the country will somehow fix the horrible mess that it's in. You don't have to believe that a government is "legitimately evil" in order to protest. It helps, but you don't have to believe that at all. "Out of control crime, scarcity and inflation plus now they're belittling us and deligitimizing us with slurs and ignoring our concerns" are really good reasons to get out on the street, regardless of how much you like - or used to like - the government. OwlBot 2000 posted:Well, that ultimatum was a stupid move by Maduro. Thanks for the updates Chucky Boone, keep them coming. Thank you, my pleasure. I'm happy to see that people are interested in this! EDIT: "Chucky" Boone! I love it! Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 03:44
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I will admit that you Venezuelans have made me change my mind about Chavez. I thought Venezuela's situation was a lot like Thailand's in which the minority middle class and rich started crying that they now had to pay taxes for the poor. I then changed my mind that Chavez was basically Putin 2 without the economic success. Now I see the PSUV and Venezuela for what they are, the former is a party with grand ambitions that is so incompetent and disorganized it has no idea how to do anything but to trick people into supporting stupid policies, the latter is a country with enormous potential that is sadly crumbling apart due to differences that are likely not even really there in the first place just mostly planted their by greedy assholes who have power.Helsing posted:Given that they've consistently lost elections that international observers have certified as fair and free
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Mar 16, 2014 03:47
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punk rebel ecks posted:I will admit that you Venezuelans have made me change my mind about Chavez. I thought Venezuela's situation was a lot like Thailand's in which the minority middle class and rich started crying that they now had to pay taxes for the poor. I then changed my mind that Chavez was basically Putin 2 without the economic success. Now I see the PSUV and Venezuela for what they are, the former is a party with grand ambitions that is so incompetent and disorganized it has no idea how to do anything but to trick people into supporting stupid policies, the latter is a country with enormous potential that is sadly crumbling apart due to differences that are likely not even really there in the first place just mostly planted their by greedy assholes who have power. Looking at Venezuelan political history, it is kind of hard to see how the PSUV created the divides from whole cloth, they may have enhanced the divisions but the divide between rich and poor in a material sense predates them significantly. Also, this isn't the first these type of protests and deaths have occurred in Venezuelan political history. Yeah, there is more that is going on than the PSUV even if you want to blame them for most of what has gone wrong. Also, usually in situations like these there is more than going on that one side is entirely to blame, the same with Turkey, Egypt, Thailand even the politics have ramped up to the point you basically told you have to choose a side. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 03:52
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Here are a couple of pictures from that army event held in Caracas today:     punk rebel ecks posted:I will admit that you Venezuelans have made me change my mind about Chavez. From outside of the country, it seems simple enough: the PSUV is the party of the poor, so it's good. Like anything else in politics though, the more you examine it the more you realize that it's actually fairly complicated, and that there are a lot of intricacies and problems that end up making things a lot less rosy than originally thought. I'm glad to hear that your mind is open to different opinions! Ardennes posted:Looking at Venezuelan political history, it is kind of hard to see how the PSUV created the divides from whole cloth, they may have enhanced the divisions but the divide between rich and poor in a material sense predates them significantly. Also, this isn't the first these type of protests and deaths have occurred in Venezuelan political history. This is true as well! The rich/poor divide and resentment was there before the PSUV came along. What Chavez and the PSUV were able to do was take that divide/resentment and turn it into votes. Lots and lots of votes. And while it is true that these protests aren't unique (unfortunately) in that things like this have happened before in Venezuela, they're taking place in a unique context: against a non-Chavez PSUV leader. That alone makes them an interesting phenomenon. Chavez faced lots of unrest and even coup before, but Maduro hasn't.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:17
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Chuck Boone posted:This is true as well! The rich/poor divide and resentment was there before the PSUV came along. What Chavez and the PSUV were able to do was take that divide/resentment and turn it into votes. Lots and lots of votes. There are lots of intricacies but it cuts both ways, the PSUV was successful because ultimately there really wasn't other options and the rich/poor divide in Venezuela wasn't being resolved by previous governments. As for it being interesting, I think Maduro being in charge makes the PSUV far more vulnerable than before but that vulnerability (and Maduro's incompetence) may not be a good thing for Venezuela. It is unclear that overthrowing the PSUV at this point would actually lead to any real stability since the PSUV does seem to have its own militant supporters (and supporters in the military) who aren't going to go quietly especially if regime change happens outside the ballot box. In addition, the barricades themselves have become very problematic and have helped spur divisions and violence at the neighborhood level. If anything it looks more than before that Venezuela may just tear itself apart at the seams because there isn't a consensus, that said, it isn't the only country in the world facing that circumstance.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:31
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Ardennes posted:If anything it looks more than before that Venezuela may just tear itself apart at the seams because there isn't a consensus, that said, it isn't the only country in the world facing that circumstance. Once again, Thailand comes to mind.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:48
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Once again, Thailand comes to mind. To be honest, I think the situation is more extreme than Thailand at this point and there isn't really the possibility of a "bloodless coup" (although that doesn't look like that much of a possibility in Thailand either). I think economically Venezuela is also more unstable. However, the most dangerous difference is I think the degree of violence, and the chance for peaceful resolution seems even more remote. Unlike Ukraine, there isn't much of a geographic divide either (at least in a contiguous sense). Obviously a civil war at this point seems too extreme but I don't know where the outlet will come because neither side will back down at this point and it seems pretty that big section of the military and security services will back the PSUV. Looking at photos of that military rally, I don't think those guys just standing aside to let the opposition take power even by force.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:24
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computer parts posted:Is airing grievances and hoping the government will listen not a legitimate enough goal? When leftist protests happen in other countries, even though they do not make up a majority of the electorate it's at least seen as positive to have them (here anyway) as they raise real issues that a large part of the country have. I think its fair to be protesting to air grievances but I think demanding that the government step down seems to be taking things way too far given that its still fairly early in their mandate and the fact that most observers don't seem to dispute that the government did legitimately win the elections. Chuck Boone posted:
Didn't the government backed candidates do quite a bit better in subsequent state and municipal elections? My understanding is they did quite well in local elections and that this may be part of what sparked the protests, since the opposition's expectations were raised after how close Maduro's election turned out to be. quote:Fast forward one year, and the honeymoon with Maduro is over. You've got a crime situation that can be described as "crippling", a scarcity problem of unprecedented severity and duration in recent times, and to top it off, 56% inflation for all of 2013. Is there anything to support the regime's claims that hoarding and intentional sabotage are contributing to the economy's problems? Obviously that is a pretty convenient excuse to use but my understanding is that previously the managers of the oil firms tried to cripple the regime by sabotaging oil production. I also remember hearing stories about how in Egypt there were crippling utility problems and shortages under the Muslim Brotherhood which were suddenly resolved following the army coup, so it seems like the idea that there's some intentional sabotage of the economy isn't inherently ridiculous, even if it has no actual basis in fact. quote:Considering the fact that the next presidential elections won't be until 2019, it looks like some people have lost confidence in the government's ability to improve the situation in the next five years. These points do seem to be fair enough. I don't really have a deep knowledge of the situation so I appreciate you taking the time to answer in detail. That having been said I can at least somewhat understand why the Venezuelan government is paranoid here given that the opposition did previously try to overthrow the government through force.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:10
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Is there any question of the military's loyalty? I don't imagine anybody at the level of Coronel or higher would be kept around if his dedication to Chavismo were in question. Caracas Protests Shrink After Maduro's Army Use Threat quote:Protests in Venezuela’s capital faltered after President Nicolas Maduro’s threat to begin a military assault on the makeshift barricades “within hours.” .. Chacao was largely quiet and free from barricades by 8 p.m. last night, with a few dozen protesters continuing to skirmish with police with bottles and Molotov cocktails in the center of the borough. Much larger groups had occupied the streets on the previous nights, protesting Maduro’s handling of the economy, rising crime and police repression. As long as Maduro keeps to 'warnings' of intervention and not actual military assault I think he's got the upper hand. The moment he actually uses force he's over, I think. OwlBot 2000 fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 06:17
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Is there any question of the military's loyalty? I don't imagine anybody at the level of Coronel or higher would be kept around if his dedication to Chavismo were in question. At this point, I think more of an issue is the rank and file, even if the command structure disintegrates, it looks like many of the average soldiers would be continue to be loyal to the government or actively disloyal to the opposition.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:20
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Ardennes posted:There are lots of intricacies but it cuts both ways, the PSUV was successful because ultimately there really wasn't other options and the rich/poor divide in Venezuela wasn't being resolved by previous governments. Chuck Boone posted:From outside of the country, it seems simple enough: the PSUV is the party of the poor, so it's good. Like anything else in politics though, the more you examine it the more you realize that it's actually fairly complicated, and that there are a lot of intricacies and problems that end up making things a lot less rosy than originally thought. I'm glad to hear that your mind is open to different opinions! Also as said before, the Venezuelans in this thread are a lot more practical than they are in other forums. Most of the time they often scream that Venezuela is a single party dictatorship and that Maduro kills anyone who dares oppose him.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:35
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punk rebel ecks posted:It seems that everybody is poor now. That is different. The people at the lowest levels have better medical care than they had, unemployment is still manageable, and they have a bit of political influence and control which they never had before. quote:Also as said before, the Venezuelans in this thread are a lot more practical than they are in other forums Or on facebook. I haven't seen more hysterical, credulous people outside of Free Republic. "¡CUBAN SOLDIERS ARRESTING HEROICOS VENEZOLANOS ~!1! 
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Mar 16, 2014 06:45
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punk rebel ecks posted:It seems that everybody is poor now. That is different. In the end it most likely only means there will be another cycle of political division as goes back to the further issue of the fact there doesn't seem to be a clear alternative for the poor.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:50
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Chuck Boone posted:This is a video from a Chilean television network that was covering the protests in Altamira, I believe from last night. The video shows some of the protest, but more interestingly, the National Guard being aggressive towards the news crew. Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuQ5tENEsYU Thanks for this, Chuck. DNI stands for "Documento Nacional de Identidad" and is the equivalent of your cédula, i.e. his ID card. The more reports like this I hear, the more I am convinced that the SEBIN agents who murdered Bassil Da Costa only have been jailed because they were stupid enough to let themselves be filmed.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:13
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