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Bulma also was the only person in the entire universe to crack the secret of time travel. That includes God. Glass ceiling or not, being the smartest person EVER is a good accomplishment.
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Mar 15, 2014 22:10
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Mister Roboto posted:Bulma also was the only person in the entire universe to crack the secret of time travel. That includes God. Honestly Bulma saved the universe's collective asses more often than people give her credit for. I mean it's not like Krillin and Gohan could have made it to Namek by themselves.
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Mar 15, 2014 22:21
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Silver2195 posted:
Shonen fighting manga never stop having more and more made up powerups, so that's normal. Also, a unique trait of the Saiyans is that they CAN keep getting stronger and stronger, which is what gives them the edge. Toriyama has admitted he can't write relationships or female characters. So Chi-Chi becoming a nagging housewife is a bit of a cliche, but honestly isn't far off from what was probably his personal experiences in Japanese culture. And, this is not an attempt to be sexist, but young women changing their interests when they get married and raise a family is...pretty normal. Think about all your nerd friends who probably married a nerd girl, and the days of playing X video game together when you were 19/20 start to become way less of a priority to the adult world of raising kids. crankdatbatman posted:
It IS a contradiction, but it isn't as well. Toriyama designed Cooler 5:  The idea probably came from the director who didn't really understand that Frieza's transformations were actually the reverse of the norm. However, since the author himself approved it, this means it's legit. Which means the fans have to accept it. So Shonen Jump came up with the explanation that Cooler doesn't NEED the earlier forms as he can control his power, unlike Freeza. This meant that he was able to focus his race's morphing powers into something greater. Not a contradiction if you look at it that way.
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Mar 15, 2014 22:43
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I've always looked at it that Freeza's race doesn't have a "natural" or "true" form. Rather they mutate across a spectrum based on what it needed in a given scenario or environment. Meaning numbering their forms one through final wouldn't be entirely necessary. If that is the case then it's not weird that Cooler had a form beyond Freeza's "final" form and that form likely isn't even the "final" form of their race. They may not even have a "final" form. They aren't transformations like the Super Saiyan, they're mutations to adapt to higher and lower power levels. That's just my head-canon though. I think way too hard about this sort of thing.
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Mar 16, 2014 01:09
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Much better-written shounen than Dragon Ball have had weak female casts. (looking at you, Rurouni Kenshin) DBZ's lack of female fighters isn't a huge problem for me. We'll always have that time Eighteen broke Vegeta's arm. Come on guys, don't lie, it was the best thing ever. Vegeta has cried like a bitch and eaten more dirt than Yamcha ever did.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:26
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NikkolasKing posted:Much better-written shounen than Dragon Ball have had weak female casts. (looking at you, Rurouni Kenshin) DBZ's lack of female fighters isn't a huge problem for me. Yea, that was definitely the "oh poo poo" moment in the series story wise.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:11
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Mister Roboto posted:Toriyama has admitted he can't write relationships or female characters. So Chi-Chi becoming a nagging housewife is a bit of a cliche, but honestly isn't far off from what was probably his personal experiences in Japanese culture. And, this is not an attempt to be sexist, but young women changing their interests when they get married and raise a family is...pretty normal. Think about all your nerd friends who probably married a nerd girl, and the days of playing X video game together when you were 19/20 start to become way less of a priority to the adult world of raising kids. I'm only 21, so I can't really relate. I think I understand what you're getting at, though.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:48
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NikkolasKing posted:Much better-written shounen than Dragon Ball have had weak female casts. (looking at you, Rurouni Kenshin) Hey Kaoru did a cool thing one time and uhhh oh I can't even try to defend this poo poo. Kenshin is my favorite shounen but man oh man did it suck at that.  It got a little better in Watsuki's next manga, at least. Esroc posted:I've always looked at it that Freeza's race doesn't have a "natural" or "true" form. Rather they mutate across a spectrum based on what it needed in a given scenario or environment. Meaning numbering their forms one through final wouldn't be entirely necessary. If that is the case then it's not weird that Cooler had a form beyond Freeza's "final" form and that form likely isn't even the "final" form of their race. They may not even have a "final" form. They aren't transformations like the Super Saiyan, they're mutations to adapt to higher and lower power levels. I like calling him Super Cooler better.  So does that mean Cooler was the most badass one in his family? He certainly seemed capable of putting up more of a fight against Goku than his dad or brother did against Trunks. 
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Mar 16, 2014 05:11
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VJeff posted:Hey Kaoru did a cool thing one time and uhhh oh I can't even try to defend this poo poo. Kenshin is my favorite shounen but man oh man did it suck at that. Aw, man, Ruroni Kenshin. That poo poo was so good in some ways and so bad in others.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:18
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VJeff posted:So does that mean Cooler was the most badass one in his family? He certainly seemed capable of putting up more of a fight against Goku than his dad or brother did against Trunks. Nah. If anything, before his robot upgrade, Cooler was weaker than Freeza. Even in his new form. Regardless of what official literature claims. The series established that Freeza's 4th form at 100% power, while still no real match against a Super Saiyan, could still at least put up a fight. Cooler in his own 4th form fought Base Goku to a draw and had to transform to a new 5th form to gain the upper hand. But then Goku goes SSj and just destroys him. Even if we accept that Goku was just messing around during the 100% 4th Form Freeza fight, and could have ended Freeza anytime he wanted, that still places Cooler's 5th form roughly in the same league as Freeza's 4th. Thus, based on what we actually witness in the show and movie, at best Cooler is equal to 4th Form Freeza while using his 5th Form. Meaning he had to "discover a new form" just to match Freeza. And even then some evidence suggests Freeza still had the edge. This is based on what is actually seen, not what is claimed via dialogue. In the end, it's pretty obvious to me that Freeza was stronger and if he had achieved his own 5th Form he'd of walked all over Cooler like it wasn't no thang. Esroc fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 05:57
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Well, there's also the possibility that Goku got way stronger than he was when he fought Freeza. It was a year or two after that, and Goku manages to train even when he's lost in space.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:10
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Mister Roboto posted:Well, there's also the possibility that Goku got way stronger than he was when he fought Freeza. It was a year or two after that, and Goku manages to train even when he's lost in space. There's also the fact that despite the rear end-beating he was delivering to Frieza, he seemed pretty hosed up when he got to Yardrat so he probably got a zenkai out of the ordeal.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:13
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WhiffleballDude posted:There's also the fact that despite the rear end-beating he was delivering to Frieza, he seemed pretty hosed up when he got to Yardrat so he probably got a zenkai out of the ordeal. Yeah, one thing about Goku is that he'll seemingly go full-strength all the way to the end and then, when he can stop, he'll pretty much collapse. When he beat Coola, he pretty much was helpless--Salza would have killed all three of them if not for Piccolo.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:18
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WhiffleballDude posted:There's also the fact that despite the rear end-beating he was delivering to Frieza, he seemed pretty hosed up when he got to Yardrat so he probably got a zenkai out of the ordeal. Doesn't he get a zenkai during the movie where Cooler shows up too? Hahaha, what a scam that ability is. Even as kid I remember noticing how much they exploited that in the Namek saga.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:22
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You know, I've always wondered why and how they would genetically evolve the ability to become stronger after almost dying.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:27
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:You know, I've always wondered why and how they would genetically evolve the ability to become stronger after almost dying. As opposed to evolving the ability to generate 300 tonnes of ape mass?
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Mar 16, 2014 06:28
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VJeff posted:Doesn't he get a zenkai during the movie where Cooler shows up too? I thought it was great how vegeta thought to exploit dende's healing ability to try and get a power up. Although the wound couldn't be self inflicted, I guess the Sayian body could somehow tell the difference 
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Mar 16, 2014 06:53
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Monaghan posted:I thought it was great how vegeta thought to exploit dende's healing ability to try and get a power up. Same reason why it's hard to tickle yourself or give yourself a massage.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:04
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I always liked to imagine the Sayians were actually mutant humans created by aliens  . It makes more sense than anything else.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:43
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Mister Roboto posted:As opposed to evolving the ability to generate 300 tonnes of ape mass? Moon magic, obviously.
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Mar 16, 2014 08:11
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It really irks me that beside Vegeta's little exploit of that trait on Namek, no one really tried to do this whole almost-die-to-gain-more-power thing. When they first heard Future Trunks' story, the most sensible thing to do was for Vegeta and Goku just bash each other in the head and then eat senzu beans till they can no longer fit through the doors. It COULD be explained by saiyans' arrogance and thirst for challenge but at least someone could've proposed that idea.
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Mar 16, 2014 09:10
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:You know, I've always wondered why and how they would genetically evolve the ability to become stronger after almost dying. Mister Roboto posted:As opposed to evolving the ability to generate 300 tonnes of ape mass? Clearly special creation is the origin of all the species.
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Mar 16, 2014 09:18
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PiedPiper posted:It really irks me that beside Vegeta's little exploit of that trait on Namek, no one really tried to do this whole almost-die-to-gain-more-power thing. When they first heard Future Trunks' story, the most sensible thing to do was for Vegeta and Goku just bash each other in the head and then eat senzu beans till they can no longer fit through the doors. See there are a couple of problems with that theory. Vegeta was doing this on Namek because he was still a ruthless, cold-blooded killer with ambitions for immortality and absolute power. The Ginyus and Frieza were stronger than him and he wasn't trying to prove anything so he had no shame in making full use of zenkais to scrape by and deal with the assholes standing between him and immortality. Once Goku becomes a Super Saiyan, his motivations change to just surpassing Goku, and since Goku got to that level mostly on his own merits, it's possible Vegeta decided to try and do the same. It's also possible zenkais give diminishing returns and once you get to Super Saiyan level the boost isn't significant enough to be worth nearly dying over and over. Goku's too much of a good sport to resort to that kind of tactic and Vegeta's too proud after Namek. The half-saiyans just don't care enough.
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Mar 16, 2014 09:28
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WhiffleballDude posted:Goku's too much of a good sport to resort to that kind of tactic and Vegeta's too proud after Namek. The half-saiyans just don't care enough. Does it even work on the half saiyans?
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Mar 16, 2014 09:46
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There was a fan theory that zenkai doesn't even work after attaining SSJ status. And don't get me wrong, it'd be very boring to see our protagonist abusing their natural traits to gain an easy upper hand, it's just that it doesn't even get mentioned, much less outright proposed. Vegeta's crazy training is still my favourite bit from anime so I can't be mad it all happened the way it did.
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Mar 16, 2014 11:24
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I like how the dragonball wiki points out Vegeta's power level "strangely" went from 30,000 to 530,000 due to zenkai
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Mar 16, 2014 12:07
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VJeff posted:Hey Kaoru did a cool thing one time and uhhh oh I can't even try to defend this poo poo. Kenshin is my favorite shounen but man oh man did it suck at that. When I was reading the manga of Rurouni Kenshin, it struck me that he saw Kaoru as a really strong female character, just that she was vastly outshined by the rest of the cast who were the protagonists and their anti-thesis, but he also felt remorse at not being able to show just how strong she was when writing it originally. He did allow her to completely disable her opponent with just the hilt of her blade though, which is really badass. It was a lot worse with the anime-only content I guess most of you mean when you reference Kenshin, where she was basically a damsel in distress.
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Mar 16, 2014 12:37
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PiedPiper posted:It really irks me that beside Vegeta's little exploit of that trait on Namek, no one really tried to do this whole almost-die-to-gain-more-power thing. When they first heard Future Trunks' story, the most sensible thing to do was for Vegeta and Goku just bash each other in the head and then eat senzu beans till they can no longer fit through the doors. It went by the wayside along with the Giant Monkey form. Toriyama got bored of the idea and moved on, let the fans/Shonen Jump explain why it no longer was used.
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Mar 16, 2014 13:09
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PiedPiper posted:There was a fan theory that zenkai doesn't even work after attaining SSJ status. And don't get me wrong, it'd be very boring to see our protagonist abusing their natural traits to gain an easy upper hand, it's just that it doesn't even get mentioned, much less outright proposed. The only Zenkai I can remember happening after Vegeta's healing abuse (or Goku's heal tank depending on your point of view) was actually to Cell who came back stronger after his self destruct. quote:When I was reading the manga of Rurouni Kenshin, it struck me that he saw Kaoru as a really strong female character, just that she was vastly outshined by the rest of the cast who were the protagonists and their anti-thesis, but he also felt remorse at not being able to show just how strong she was when writing it originally. Yeah, the problem with Kaoru and women in general in Rurouni Kenshin is that the author had a habit of introducing 'strong' female characters who were powerful in comparison to regular people, but massively underpowered compared to the shonen villains they faced. When fighting someone who wasn't a superpowered burn victim, legendary assassin or 25 foot giant Kaoru did pretty good. She straight up kneecapped one of the sub villains, which was harsh.
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Mar 16, 2014 14:41
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Caros posted:The only Zenkai I can remember happening after Vegeta's healing abuse (or Goku's heal tank depending on your point of view) was actually to Cell who came back stronger after his self destruct. Yeah, and he learned Instant Transmission, too! Plus he regenerated from basically nothing, that was a huge BS moment. I remember that one fan once proposed that Cell saga should have taken place after Buu saga - then Cell's uncanny regeneration could've been explained by having his DNA spliced with Buu's. There would be quite a lot of logistical problems, sure, but hey, a man can dream. Speaking of which, I know there is some vitriol for Buu saga, but what do you personally make of it? What would you want to be altered? What scenes/characters were your (least) favourite?
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Mar 16, 2014 20:02
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Mordaedil posted:When I was reading the manga of Rurouni Kenshin, it struck me that he saw Kaoru as a really strong female character, just that she was vastly outshined by the rest of the cast who were the protagonists and their anti-thesis, but he also felt remorse at not being able to show just how strong she was when writing it originally. Yeah, he outright said in the liner notes once that Kaoru was supposed to be one of the strongest swordsman in Japan or something but compared to dudes like Kenshin and Shishio...yeah. She did get to break a giant loving scythe with a wooden sword and then kneecap a dude with what was left of it though, that was the best. 
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Mar 16, 2014 20:17
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PiedPiper posted:Speaking of which, I know there is some vitriol for Buu saga, but what do you personally make of it? What would you want to be altered? What scenes/characters were your (least) favourite? Removing the entire scene where Gohan can't catch an earring even though he is one of the strongest and fastest people I. The world?
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Mar 16, 2014 20:24
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Drowning Rabbit posted:Removing the entire scene where Gohan can't catch an earring even though he is one of the strongest and fastest people I. The world? At that point he is the strongest in the world and doesn't do crap.
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Mar 16, 2014 20:26
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Boo Saga is pretty cool, imo. The only things I'd probably change: -Change Goten's hair so that it doesn't look exactly like Goku's. -Make it so that neither Goten nor Trunks can become Super Saiyans; they can only become a Super Saiyan as Gotenks -Give Piccolo a slightly larger role as a fighter, allow him to make one more good account of himself before the series ends -Change Boo's character so that he doesn't have such insane regeneration powers and he doesn't absorb people. He's too much like Cell in that sense. He's just a rubbery magic monster that turns people into candy and is scarily childlike. But other than that I love the Boo Saga. I like how it brings back a lot of the humor and zany wackiness, since the Cell Saga was so super serial and melodramatic. I also like all of the mystical fantasy elements with the Kaioshin, the allusions to the "demon realm" that Dabura comes from, Babidi's magic, etc.
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Mar 16, 2014 20:57
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I'd switch it around so Goku didn't come back at all, but then we'd lose out on the Goku vs Majin Vegeta fight and that would sort of suck. Along with the "Buu is just rubbery and not a super absorbing regeneration monster" thing, I'd want it to go like this: Gotenks keeps Buu held down for awhile, going super saiyan 3 to defeat Super Buu, and then Mystic Gohan comes to help fight when Super Buu somehow transforms into Kid Buu.
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Mar 16, 2014 21:08
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Kid Buu is way weaker than Super Buu though. The only change I'd want is Gohan being the Great Saiyaman the entire time.
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Mar 16, 2014 22:41
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BlitzBlast posted:Kid Buu is way weaker than Super Buu though. I think Kid Buu is about on par with original Super Buu but weaker than the versions that absorbed Gotenks and Gohan.
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Mar 16, 2014 22:50
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I think Kid Buu is stronger just because he has absolute no limits and is infinitely more aggressive.
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Mar 16, 2014 23:01
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WhiffleballDude posted:I think Kid Buu is about on par with original Super Buu but weaker than the versions that absorbed Gotenks and Gohan. He isn't even close. Kid Buu is Buu before he absorbed anyone at all. Super Buu is Buu after absorbing hundreds of things over time. This is kind of basic math. The danger with Kid Buu was that it was mindless, world-destroyingly powerful chaos.
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Mar 16, 2014 23:08
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Kid Buu is considerably weaker, but far more dangerous simply because he gives no fucks and just exists to destroy everything in his path.
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Mar 16, 2014 23:10
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