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FourLeaf posted:Why? He's willing to go the extra mile to win a case for his client. It would explain why he would have a relationship with the bailiff. And a serial killer lawyer trying to win a case for a serial killer client is just sort of 
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Mar 15, 2014 23:32
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Its the same person for both murders. It doesn't make sense since they're both modeled similarly as love letters to Will. Its someone who is upset with Will's trial, who doesn't like where its going. Justice is blind, but has no heart or brain? This person doesn't have a high opinion of justice, sees it as inhuman. Pretty much saying that justice isn't even necessary in this case, that justice is in the way of the truth. They're acknowledging that Will is a killer, but also acknowledging or attempting to absolve him of the sins he supposedly committed. The copycat knows Will, -knows- him. And knows the truth. Or a bit of the truth. The copycat has clear boundaries, they aren't completely Other like Hannibal. They mercifully kill their targets before disfiguring them, they don't take souvenirs to eat. It is someone close to the case, who has access to all the information. Someone who would know the bailiff. Alana doesn't make sense. She's what could potentially unravel Hannibal, his truest threat. But we already saw her defeated. She essentially denied any romantic involvement, a clear lie but there it is. This isn't du Maurier's style. She would have attacked Hannibal instead of leaving a perfume bottle. She believes Will, but moreso she hates Hannibal. Nevermind the fact that neither of them seem to have the physical or emotional strength to carry this out. Maybe Alana has the emotional strength, but I doubt it. The lawyer also lacks clear warning signs, his wardrobe is pretty blah and a lot of people picked up on how he could possibly be dead soon. That doesn't strike me as a character that's going to be important. Since the judge died immediately after Hannibal's turn at the stand, I'm inclined to believe that it is someone who is also emotionally linked to Hannibal in some way. Altogether, my first thought was that it was Jack. Since the beginning of this season we've watched him and his internal struggle. We know that eventually he confronts Hannibal. Since I doubt Hannibal is going to jail next season, "Jack knows" doesn't seem really plausible from a story telling point of view. Though, knowing this show, I may be surprised. Jack is extremely attached to Will and doesn't want to see him dead. He has clear attachments to Will and Hannibal. He has access to all the information. It sets it up perfectly for the end when he either is caught by Hannibal, or somehow they both figure each other out. The two sit on opposite ends of Will, both pulling him toward destructive ends. It could be a way for Jack to atone for what he feels are his own sins of breaking Will. All that said, I really hope it isn't Jack. But he's also the only one that makes sense given what's been presented so far.
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Mar 16, 2014 00:10
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Maybe it is Hannibal after all but trying to frame Jack?
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Mar 16, 2014 00:31
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Calling it now: Francis Dollarhyde. One of his early murders is the first thing we see in Season 1, and he's the only person to have killed with a gun so far, I believe. Given that he likes watching people, maybe he saw Will at the first crime scene and now he's got a little murdercrush on him.
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Mar 16, 2014 00:52
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Vitamin P posted:The judge was Hannibal, the bailiff was Alana. i kinda think this as well
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Mar 16, 2014 01:00
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Desht posted:Its the same person for both murders. It doesn't make sense since they're both modeled similarly as love letters to Will. Its someone who is upset with Will's trial, who doesn't like where its going. Justice is blind, but has no heart or brain? This person doesn't have a high opinion of justice, sees it as inhuman. Pretty much saying that justice isn't even necessary in this case, that justice is in the way of the truth. They're acknowledging that Will is a killer, but also acknowledging or attempting to absolve him of the sins he supposedly committed. The copycat knows Will, -knows- him. And knows the truth. Or a bit of the truth. Someone explain to me why Will deduced the bailiff was 'friends' with his murderer. He felt comfortable going to a crime scene alone with him?
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Mar 16, 2014 01:21
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They are both Hannibal. Meticulously trying to make them look like different murderers to offset will and give him reason to doubt. He didn't do his usual shtick of eating the body parts and taking parts out whilst alive as that would be too big of a clue for will. At least that's my theory. Whenever I see a dead body in this show now I think it was Hannibal unless they show another serial killer.
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Mar 16, 2014 01:29
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Catsplosion posted:He didn't do his usual shtick of eating the body parts and taking parts out whilst alive as that would be too big of a clue for will. Unless I missed something the heart and brain of the judge were taken, presumably for eatin'.
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Mar 16, 2014 01:41
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Vitamin P posted:Unless I missed something the heart and brain of the judge were taken, presumably for eatin'. Uh, weren't they prominently displayed on the scale?
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Mar 16, 2014 01:43
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Vitamin P posted:Unless I missed something the heart and brain of the judge were taken, presumably for eatin'. They were in the scale.
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Mar 16, 2014 01:43
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Well poo poo. That's why I'm not a special FBI consultant.
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Mar 16, 2014 01:45
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C'mon, thread! You're better than this! When Will had Gideon at gunpoint, Hannibal straight-up said there was nobody there. That was a watershed moment for showing Hannibal's self control he says everything with such preternatural calm that you can't help but believe it to be true. He's the copycat and he has no problem identifying himself in all but name because his simple denial will be enough to make them look for other suspects. edit: This is probably a bad time to mention that Alana was Hannibal's student, and every scene with the nightmare stag is followed by scene with Alana. Slamhound fucked around with this message at 02:30 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 02:27
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It was Abigail Hobbs.
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Mar 16, 2014 02:31
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Well, I guess in a universe in which the Angelmaker could flay his own back and string himself up spread-eagle 30 feet off the ground, a tiny woman barely 5 feet tall and 100 pounds could lift a grown man in the air and hurl him down on a pair of antlers with enough force to impale him.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:31
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I think it has to be (likely spoiler?) the orderly. Remember when they showed him several times, I think in the first episode? There are very few extraneous people in this show. Also, the actor has a lot of decent screen credits for somebody who has, at this point, almost no role. Maybe he's a budding serial killer. Don't forget that in addition to Chilton observing everything Will does, the people who work there do too.
delirious pancake fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Mar 16, 2014 |
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Mar 16, 2014 03:40
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delirious pancake posted:I think it has to be (likely spoiler?) the orderly. Remember when they showed him several times, I think in the first episode? There are very few extraneous people in this show. Also, the actor has a lot of decent screen credits for somebody who has, at this point, almost no role. Maybe he's a budding serial killer. Don't forget that in addition to Chilton observing everything Will does, the people who work there do too. Couldn't he also just be Hannibal universe' Barney? It'd be a little early to introduce him this season but it could just be groundwork on Fuller's part.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:45
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Tokubetsu posted:Couldn't he also just be Hannibal universe' Barney? It'd be a little early to introduce him this season but it could just be groundwork on Fuller's part. I'm not familiar with the character (need to watch the movies, and maybe read the books - yes I am a bad fan  ) but you might be right. I figured it had to be likelier than say, Alana.
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Mar 16, 2014 03:58
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Just so it wasn't my imagination, everything that Freddie said on the stand was blatant Hearsay, correct? I can't remember the exact words, something like "Abigail told me that she feared for her life because she thought Will Graham was going to cook her up and eat her heart", but I was surprised Will's lawyer didn't cut her off right at "Abigail said". I suppose they did this so the lawyer could ask Freddie the "six times" question about Libel, but that part seemed careless to me, especially since they mention Hearsay in a different context a couple of scenes later. Also, I genuinely guffawed at Freddie's outfit.  Straight out of a Film Noir from the 40's. She really knew how to play up the role, for her audience at Tattle Crime, naturally. I almost applauded.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:01
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Still hoping it's Dollarhyde, even if it is a bit early for him to make an appearance. He uses a gun and he was an aspiring bodybuilder, so at least tossing a dude onto some antlers isn't stretching credulity. Maybe he's fascinated with Will the same way he ends up fascinated with Hannibal, especially since his is the first crime scene we see in this show and as far as I know it's the only one that hasn't been accounted for. At the very least I'll be a bit disappointed if Hannibal is responsible for both, and I'm just not buying that Bloom would do it. It doesn't seem to jive with the way her character has been built up thus far. She seems to only value Will's innocence if he is actually innocent; murdering someone as a scheme to get him out of the charges would be a weird turn unless she's way, way more connected to Hannibal than the show has led on thus far. I just think her being an accomplice to Lecter would be kind of a sketchy twist.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:02
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Full Fathoms Five posted:At the very least I'll be a bit disappointed if Hannibal is responsible for both... Why? For a show like this, having it be anybody but Hannibal would be the most disappointing in my opinion. I think the show is way too smart to treat the audience like idiots and give us some stupid "twist" out of nowhere. Maybe it's just me coming fresh out of the Hell that was Dexter Season 8, but I loving hate unpredictable out-of-nowhere twists and characters doing really out of character things. I have faith in the show, and I say it's Hannibal killing people similar to his old killings, but doing it just wrong enough to keep the doubt in Will's mind about his own innocence. Hannibal wants to keep Will from life imprisonment or death, but he also wants his own freedom, so the compromise is that he'll try and get Will out (or postpone his sentence) while keeping himself off Will's (and Jack's) radar.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:38
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Is nobody going to guess Freddy Lounds as the murderer just for shits & giggles? She needs Will running around to fixate her dark stories on.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:47
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I want it to be Hannibal. He's the only character shown so far that would fit except that it doesn't really make sense for him to be faking murders. After the judge died I thought for sure it really was him, but the last scene with the stag leaving and Hannibal showing will to his cell kind of conflicts with that reading. The stag is showing him a way out, Hannibal wants to keep him there.
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Mar 16, 2014 04:53
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Desht posted:I want it to be Hannibal. He's the only character shown so far that would fit except that it doesn't really make sense for him to be faking murders. After the judge died I thought for sure it really was him, but the last scene with the stag leaving and Hannibal showing will to his cell kind of conflicts with that reading. The stag is showing him a way out, Hannibal wants to keep him there. The "don't waste his love" line seemed to me to be pretty clearly Hannibal describing himself.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:12
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King Vidiot posted:Why? For a show like this, having it be anybody but Hannibal would be the most disappointing in my opinion. I think the show is way too smart to treat the audience like idiots and give us some stupid "twist" out of nowhere. Maybe it's just me coming fresh out of the Hell that was Dexter Season 8, but I loving hate unpredictable out-of-nowhere twists and characters doing really out of character things. I definitely don't want some twist straight out of the writer's rear end or anything, but if they are both Hannibal's doing it just seems needlessly convoluted. I mean why kill both people? Why not just murder the judge? He could have even mutilated the judge using Will's supposed MO to kill two birds with one stone. Hannibal's reaction to everything happening seemed a little off, and the line about seeing him as a "friend" just doesn't make much sense if it's Hannibal.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:13
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Full Fathoms Five posted:I definitely don't want some twist straight out of the writer's rear end or anything, but if they are both Hannibal's doing it just seems needlessly convoluted. I mean why kill both people? Why not just murder the judge? He could have even mutilated the judge using Will's supposed MO to kill two birds with one stone. Hannibal's reaction to everything happening seemed a little off, and the line about seeing him as a "friend" just doesn't make much sense if it's Hannibal. Because killing the judge just resets the trial, whereas the first murder would've created an affirmative defense, allowing Will to get exonerated or at least a mistrial. The judge was a much more high profile, risky killing and necessary after his first gambit failed.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:15
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Desht posted:
I don't think it's Jack, but if it was, that could completely change what we saw in that fight scene at the start of the season. If Jack killed the bailiff, then it would be possible that he was intending to do the same to Hannibal, and what we saw was Hannibal acting quickly in self-defense. I do think it's possible that while Jack didn't do it, that somehow after the fight Jack will be dead and Hannibal will argue that's exactly what happened, blaming the copycat murders on Jack and claiming that his fight was his own self-defense, thereby letting him kill one of the biggest threats to him without being exposed/in prison quite yet.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:25
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I kept getting American Peter Serafinowicz vibes from the lawyer. It's a wonderful smugness. My gut says that Hannibal did both murders, though that does leave the question of whether changing the method of death the first time was a deliberate move or some sort of mistake. I can't really think of any possible motivations for a new killer outside the main cast to be doing something so intimately involved with Will. And when you look at the people who are close to him, Jack is about the only person aside from Hannibal who seems both physically and mentally equipped to commit and cover up such elaborate murders.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:48
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Why aren't these recent copycat murders exactly like Will's supposed murders? It's like someone wants him to go free but still have a cloud of suspicion hanging over him.
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Mar 16, 2014 05:57
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I think Hannibal wants Will to understand how good of a friend he is. He'd do anything for Will.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:13
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Pretty sure it was the judge. He killed the bailiff for being a jerk, then later he got all sad about himself being a jerk to will, so he killed himself in a way that showed he thought he was being a jerk, but also showed off his artistic side, as he always wanted to be an artist not a judge. The real tragedy being that his final artistic statement does even get attributed to himself.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:17
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No More Toast posted:I just noticed this tweet by Fuller. To me the hoofbeats sounded almost like high heel shoes. Alana has been an unknown quantity since the start - if you believe the colour logic people have been applying to her choices of clothing. In the final scene, when she was speaking with Will in the glass cage, things were getting very deep and certainly seemed like the show was throwing out hints. Will, referring to the killer, said, "He's going to reach out to me." Thirty seconds later Alana and Will were holding hands. Alana: What does he (the killer) want? Will: He wants to know me. What do you want? Alana: I want to save you. Though how she would have lifted the large bailiff onto the horns and impaled him is a bit of a leap. The Stag scene itself was very clear. Whoever the Stag represents wants Will to be free. Hannibal wants him in a cage. Desht posted:All that said, I really hope it isn't Jack. But he's also the only one that makes sense given what's been presented so far. If it IS Jack, then that completely rewrites what we thought we saw in the very first scene of this season. What if it wasn't "Jack knows about Hannibal" but "Jack knows that Hannibal knows about Jack"? It explains why Jack went in there alone without backup, why he didn't try to call for help during the fight. It explains how Hannibal will continue to be able to be Hannibal in future seasons rather than being on the run for murdering a senior figure in the FBI. (edit: beaten)
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Mar 16, 2014 06:18
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Bryan Fuller would be missing a golden opportunity if they didn't find a way to make Hannibal Buress do a cameo on Hannibal. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3yvion08A0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAfsgM_i8O4 He's already experienced at being a murder victim and also murdering time.
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Mar 16, 2014 06:33
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kaworu posted:You know, I like that quote, and it did pop out to me a bit. Something I hadn't known (until I just looked it up) was that Bryan Fuller is gay, and I think that might perhaps make him better able to portray a strictly platonic friendship and genuine love between two men like the one in this series without feeling threatened or like he has to justify anything sexually one way or the other, maybe. Or I could be full of poo poo. But it seems to me that, as per this quote, he could have upped the level of homoeroticism between the two male leads if he wanted to, and consciously chose not to. I think there's something to that, sure. There's an intimacy to their relationship that he doesn't feel the need to temper by immediately reminding us how straight everyone is, defining the relationship by what it isn't rather than focusing on how multilayered and fascinating it is, apart from relatively simple questions of sexuality. What I've really noticed is how often you see Will wearing very little, not in a cheesy "ooh look at that" way, but very naturally and matter-of-factly. There's a comfort with male bodies and an acknowledgment of the leads' physical attractiveness that doesn't feel like it's just there to throw straight women or gay men some scraps before getting back to the default assumption a lot of straight showrunners and filmmakers have that everybody just wants to look at sexy ladies all the time. Hannibal will be wearing a pretty revealing swimsuit at some point, and I fully expect him to check himself out like he did during the dressing montage.  Full Fathoms Five posted:Still hoping it's Dollarhyde, even if it is a bit early for him to make an appearance. He uses a gun and he was an aspiring bodybuilder, so at least tossing a dude onto some antlers isn't stretching credulity. Maybe he's fascinated with Will the same way he ends up fascinated with Hannibal, especially since his is the first crime scene we see in this show and as far as I know it's the only one that hasn't been accounted for. This is a good theory. Will's hallucination of the Angelmaker in the barn sounded a lot like Dolarhyde with that talk about "becoming," so maybe he did that, too. dr_rat posted:Pretty sure it was the judge. He killed the bailiff for being a jerk, then later he got all sad about himself being a jerk to will, so he killed himself in a way that showed he thought he was being a jerk, but also showed off his artistic side, as he always wanted to be an artist not a judge. This is the best theory, though. Poor jerk. 
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Mar 16, 2014 07:09
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love will turn you around
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Will said the balif knew the person who killed him.
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Mar 16, 2014 07:49
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Simstim posted:Will said the balif knew the person who killed him. Will thought his BFF Hannibal was a serial killing cannibal, clearly we can't trust his judgement. 
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Mar 16, 2014 08:36
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Jerusalem posted:Clarence Starling vs Bovine Beverly. The name started as a bad joke, they said..... this one likes their cows.... Her victims were all horny? "She's making a boy suit, out of real boys."
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Mar 16, 2014 08:46
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Sub Rosa posted:He's willing to go the extra mile to win a case for his client. It would explain why he would have a relationship with the bailiff. And a serial killer lawyer trying to win a case for a serial killer client is just sort of Serial Killer Lawyer Fighting for Will Graham Mailin' ears to himself And causing courtroom mayhem On topic, I don't buy that it's Hannibal. They usually show if he killed someone. Having some murders, portraying them as some big mystery, then going 'Oh, no, it was just Hannibal again' seems strangely pointless. I can definitely see it being Alana, though maybe Bedelia? Maybe this is what she's doing while in hiding? We know that she believes Will, giving her a motivation to free him. Dunno if it would fit her, though, or whether she'd know the baliff or the case details. Well played, Fuller.
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Mar 16, 2014 08:58
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Do we always see Hannibal do his murders? That's possible but I seem to recall quite a few cases where we weren't shown. I think whether or not he did it depends on if he wants Will to get out. I'm not really sure of that, but if the stag scene is to be believed, he wants Will to stay and then the murders make sense. They raise some doubt of his guilt, and perhaps show Will what a BFF Hannibal is trying to be and give him some hope, but due to the different execution, it clearly doesn't fly as a defense. On the other hand, if he wanted Will to get out, then I'm sure he wouldn't have messed up by imperfectly replicating Will's murders. This raises the question then of who actually did do it. Alana seems unlikely just from the physical point of view (but who knows) and also wanting Will to be actually innocent. My money would be on Jack, I think. He has the motive: Free Willy and exonerate himself of his mistakes. He physically can do it, and it explains two scenes with him: the fight, and not freaking out over the explosion during the raid. The downside to this theory, again, is the imperfect replication of Will's/Hannibal's murders - Jack did know all the forensics stuff about them, so why would he mess up in a way that would tank Will's defense?
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Mar 16, 2014 10:01
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Having rewatched it, I think the hint in the stag scene is where it goes and Will peaks in at. It was a room meant for staff.
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Mar 16, 2014 10:06
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Simstim posted:Having rewatched it, I think the hint in the stag scene is where it goes and Will peaks in at. It was a room meant for staff. Which books did the Barney (?) character who worked in the mental hospital and was polite to Hannibal in the films originate from? Or was it an add on for the movie? I want him in the story! I hope the killer is Chilton because he just wants to keep his pet Will Graham and torment him!
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Mar 16, 2014 11:43
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